On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.

Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would
still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches
instead of 3 feet as I had been planning.

Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

I'm thinking about the gas log I installed in the fireplace. This has
a shut off valve, some kind of a small orifice (I never checked the
diameter), and the gas is fed to about 2 feet of perforated tube
arranged in an S curve. The gas mixes with the air AFTER the gas
leaves the perforated tube. This results in a dirtier, but more
visible flame. (Just the oposite of a Bunsen burner).

In your evaluation, try using regular gas pipe coming up to just
above the surface of the water in your test tank. You WILL want to
have some sort of an orifice restricting the flow just after the shut
off valve, and some sort of a diffuser just above the surface of the
water. I'm not at all enthusiastic about having the gas bubble up
throught the water. You won't get a smooth flow, and the water will
get saturated with natural gas. Once you get the mechanics worked
out, you can explore replacing any metal parts above the water with
glass. Heavy wall glass tubing in a wide range of diameters is a
stock item at any laboratory supply house.

I visualise two possible designs. The first is a simple glass tube
1/2 - 1" in diameter coming up to just above the surface of the water.
You would remove any water from the tube, turn on the gas, and light
it. At night, from a distance of more than a couple of feet, the
glass tube would be hard to see.

A more complex design would require a 4" diameter glass or plastic
tube ending right at the surface of the water, and an inside that a
much smaller tube 2" below that providing the gas. A small pump would
be constantly emptying any water which flowed into the larger tube.
The effect would be that of a 4" hole in the water with the flame
coming out of it.

PlainBill

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:00:54 -0500, Mike Patterson
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
wrote:

Mike Patterson wrote:

Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.

Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would
still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches
instead of 3 feet as I had been planning.

Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! D
Janet


You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! D
Janet


You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html


~ jan

Oh no Jan... HGTV does not know how to do ponds well or properly! On Weekend
Warrior last night they built a so-called koi pond. Hubby and I sat and
laughed at all the bad ponding advice. Tiny pond, no real filtering,
overstocked... you name it they did it! O

Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the
fish are ok under the solid ice.( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole
thawed in the ice to check.


I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! D
Janet


You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html


~ jan

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:43:03 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! D
Janet


You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html


~ jan


So - I'm gathering no one who follows this group has ever heard of
anything like this?

I'm actually quite surprised at everyone's surprise, as it seems so
obvious to me, and I know this group has more than it's share of
creative thinkers.

I guess I'll make sure to take pics of everything as I go, and success
or failure, I'll put it on my web server.

I've followed this group off and on for about 4-5 years now in "wish"
mode, and I finally got the opportunity to build my own pond.

Now that it's in, I'm looking to make it into my vision of a place to
relax, socialize, and have just a touch of "ooooh, that's cool!"

It's going to take anothe 2-3 years to get everything the way I want
it, but I'm well on the way.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Anne Lurie wrote:
What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


That is part of what I am trying to stress to Mike P. You cannot simply
stick a pipe or tube in the pond,
connect it to a gas source and light it. It take pilots, orifices,
burners, valves, and SAFEty devices.

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com


"Mike Patterson" wrote in
message ...

Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.

Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Mike Patterson wrote:
On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:43:08 -0900, Offbreed
wrote:


Mike Patterson wrote:


Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

How about a glass or plastic tube for in the water, comming up to the
surface? It should not be any more intrusive than the bubbles.


Good idea, thanks. Even if it terminates under the surface, it would
still reduce the gas/water "exposure time" to a couple of inches
instead of 3 feet as I had been planning.

Mike P.
Forget the "exposure time" that will not even come into play as the
bubble method will not work reliably.
No matter how close to the surface you start the bubbles.

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com
Mike

Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

Ka30P wrote:

You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...



Ka30P & Janet

I guess I am just going to have to come out and tell MiKe P. that he is
literally]
PLAYING WTH FIRE AND CAN GET SERIOUSLY BURNED. "NO PUN INTENDED"
There are too, too, many things that can go wrong with what he is
attempting to do
and the way he wants to go about it.

I work with propane, gas fireplaces and the like. I have trained with
GAS both as a fireman
and as a repairman/installer. I have also experimented with it and my
gas campfire is a hybrid
of regular manufacturers design and some of my own.

The Flame thingy or the FEFD (Floating Eternal Flame Device) as it will
be called if it works.
Has all the safety controls, valves, pilot light, and burners that your
home gas furnace has only
on a smaller, simpler scale.

You can't just run a gas line and light the gas and expect it to stay
lit. Especially in a pond with waves
or even ripples from curious fish swimming by near the surface.

Again I repeat:
The only way the bubble method might work is if you have a standing
pilot. To help maintain the flame.
Even then you will probably have a very unstable flame.
(ex. Fireball... steady pilot flame... Fireball...steady pilot
flame...Fireball...Fireball... Fireball...steady flame...etc, etc, etc...

If it wasn't so cold (-4 F last night, only 11 F today and maybe 20 F
tomorrow) and everything frozen I could go outside
and do some video of what he wants to do and show him just what CAN and
WILL happen if he goes
about the testing he wants to do. But, Ice doesn’t bubble too well.

Even with my training and respect of gas, I get SCARED at times when
experimenting. And I am not ashamed to admit it.
I have lost my share of eyebrows, moustache, and beard to
experimentation. No serious burns, other than forgetting
that a part was hot.

Again Mike P;
"YOUR PLAYING WTH FIRE AND CAN GET SERIOUSLY BURNED". "NO PUN INTENDED"
I don't want to have to tell you later: I TOLD YOU SO!

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com

Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the
fish are ok under the solid ice.( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole
thawed in the ice to check.

There's a lot to be said for my leaf screens that I leave on till spring.
When the snow comes it makes an igloo and the ponds are completely ice free
underneath. This came in very handy when the temps dropped to below 0*F and
we lost power for 6 hours. When the power came on I could hear liquid water
running from filter (hose self drains) to pond.

Regarding the fish though, I need an underwater cam w/light. ~ jan
~ jan

And we are solidly BEHIND you! Way behind you of course in case it BLOWS up
in your face? Sorry Dude, can't help myself!

Really though, I think your idea is great and we do look forward to the
outcome, just be careful not to hurt yourself while perfecting the idea!

--
_______________________________________
"The difference between 'involvement' and 'commitment' is
like an eggs-and-ham breakfast:
The chicken was 'involved' - the pig was 'committed'."

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino

"Mike Patterson" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:43:03 -0800, ~ jan JJsPond.us
wrote:

I think HGTV ought to be informed of this project. ~ jan

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing! D
Janet


You people are all nuts ;-)

And I nominate you all for that TV
program MONSTER HOUSE.
But I think we should rename
it MONSTER POND.

This project demands a web page
when it is done...




ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html


~ jan


So - I'm gathering no one who follows this group has ever heard of
anything like this?

I'm actually quite surprised at everyone's surprise, as it seems so
obvious to me, and I know this group has more than it's share of
creative thinkers.

I guess I'll make sure to take pics of everything as I go, and success
or failure, I'll put it on my web server.

I've followed this group off and on for about 4-5 years now in "wish"
mode, and I finally got the opportunity to build my own pond.

Now that it's in, I'm looking to make it into my vision of a place to
relax, socialize, and have just a touch of "ooooh, that's cool!"

It's going to take anothe 2-3 years to get everything the way I want
it, but I'm well on the way.


Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Janet who's pond has 2 broken lines from this arctic air and hope the
fish are ok under the solid ice.( Hopefully tomorrow we will get a hole
thawed in the ice to check.

There's a lot to be said for my leaf screens that I leave on till spring.
When the snow comes it makes an igloo and the ponds are completely ice
free
underneath. This came in very handy when the temps dropped to below 0*F
and
we lost power for 6 hours. When the power came on I could hear liquid
water
running from filter (hose self drains) to pond.

Regarding the fish though, I need an underwater cam w/light. ~ jan
~ jan

Your temps dropped below 0*F Jan... We have been living through an arctic
air mass with temps of -18*F to -20*F with winchills in the -30* to -40*
mark. Even with my pump going full tilt my stream froze solid. ( I also
had a bell fountain going and it froze solid and cracked with the pump
going... Temps are supposed to rise for the next few days to gasp 32-34*F
so I'm hoping to get some stuff thawed and checked and hopefully back up and
running.
Janet who'll have to remember the leaf screen next fall! ;o)

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:03:00 GMT, "Cybe R. Wizard"
Cybe_R_Wizard@WizardsTower wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 08:45:01 GMT
"Just Me \"Koi\"" wrote:

If you pull it off though, I will be the first in line to emulate you!

DANG, I must be getting old.
I read that as, "...immolate you."

Cybe R. Wizard

I was thinking the same thing. Keep your finger on the 911 key.

I just have "this feeling" that we're gonna read about or see on TV a
story about Mike. I hope it has a happy ending.

dd

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:30:44 -0500, Chagoi
wrote:

Anne Lurie wrote:
What happens if the fire goes out -- after all, we are talking about
*water* -- wouldn't you then just have a gas leak?

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


That is part of what I am trying to stress to Mike P. You cannot simply
stick a pipe or tube in the pond,
connect it to a gas source and light it. It take pilots, orifices,
burners, valves, and SAFEty devices.

Mike S.
Chagoi
http://ourkoipond.com


"Mike Patterson" wrote in
message ...

Really like my new pond, finally seem to have the surrounding drainage
problem and the Mysterious Water Loss After Heavy Rain problem fixed,
so now I'm thinking...

How about if I run black gas pipe out to the the back end of the pond,
put on a valve there, then something like icemaker tubing into the
pond so that gas bubbles up near the center, then light it.

I wouldn't run it all the time, but it'd be a cool effect for parties.

Would there be any adverse repercussions to the fish?

Mike
Mike Patterson
Please remove the spamtrap to email me.