wrote in message ...
avoid leaves in the pond and losing fish... design the pond with netting. then you
wont need a skimmer or a bottom drain...Ingrid

Nets are not necessary if predators are not an issue and if trees are
not dropping their leaves. They are a real help in the fall, however,
and I would recommend one. Aesthetics are key for me and I'd rather
not have one. I vouch for the bottom drain. I do not have a skimmer,
but would like one. The bottom drain removes much of the debris and
sludge that forms in the pond bottom. Best investment made for the
pond.

Justin
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090

"Carola / Les" wrote in message
.. .
Depends upon your location and possibility of leaves etc getting into
the
pond. Also whether or not you have the time to physically remove leaves
on
a daily basis when they get in the pond.
I think you only need a bottom drain if the depth is greater than 2ft 6in.
At this depth you will be able to 'paddle' in the pond to remove debris
and
'vacuum' as required.
The depth also depends upon where you live. Most fish, including Koi, are
quite happy in 2ft of water providing you give them some kind of shelter
and
plants to hide in.
You only need a greater depth when there is extemes of temperature.

I am in MD, zone 6?, and am planning on a pond about 3 feet deep at the
deepest point. I like the idea of the bottom drain, I am not sure about the
skimmer yet. My pond location has a good potential for dropped leaves, so
the bottom drain will be important I think.

BV.

"Just Me "Koi"" wrote in message
...
I vouch for Theron's response. You'll be sorry if you don't do both!
snip

This is where I am confused...if the bottom drain will remove anything that
comes to the bottom, why bother having a skimmer? Why not let it fall, rot,
get sucked and become food for the veggie filter?

BV.

I forgot... nets also keep fish from jumping to their death. and predators are
always an issue if the pond is outside. I dont even see the fine netting anymore,
but then the health of my fish are more imporant than aesthetics for me. I suppose
one of these years there will be enough sludge in the bottom that I will have to
clean it, but I one of those dont like to put holes in my pond at the very bottom
where if it leaks there would be no water left for my fish. Ingrid

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"Just Me "Koi"" wrote in message
.. .
I vouch for Theron's response. You'll be sorry if you don't do both!
snip

This is where I am confused...if the bottom drain will remove anything that
comes to the bottom, why bother having a skimmer? Why not let it fall, rot,
get sucked and become food for the veggie filter?

Cause it makes the process more efficient?

Skimming is an easy way to get a good percentage of the stuff right
away.

It is like why have a door mat, when the vacuum will get all the dirt
once it gets into the carpet?

"BenignVanilla" wrote:

"Carola / Les" wrote in message
. ..
Depends upon your location and possibility of leaves etc getting into
the
pond. Also whether or not you have the time to physically remove leaves
on
a daily basis when they get in the pond.
I think you only need a bottom drain if the depth is greater than 2ft 6in.
At this depth you will be able to 'paddle' in the pond to remove debris
and
'vacuum' as required.
The depth also depends upon where you live. Most fish, including Koi, are
quite happy in 2ft of water providing you give them some kind of shelter
and
plants to hide in.
You only need a greater depth when there is extemes of temperature.

I am in MD, zone 6?, and am planning on a pond about 3 feet deep at the
deepest point. I like the idea of the bottom drain, I am not sure about the
skimmer yet. My pond location has a good potential for dropped leaves, so
the bottom drain will be important I think.

Go for both. It isn't that hard. Look on the web, you'll find lots of
diagrams of peoples pond plumbing.

In my latest re-build of my pond, I'll finally get there. That is why I
say it easier to do it right the first time.

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
snip
It is like why have a door mat, when the vacuum will get all the dirt
once it gets into the carpet?

Good point.

BV.

"John Hines" wrote in message
...
snip
Go for both. It isn't that hard. Look on the web, you'll find lots of
diagrams of peoples pond plumbing.
snip

OK, I am sold the more I think about it.

Now the question...

I am going to hook my bottom drains to a settlement chamber, and pull water
from their into my veggie filter. I plan to use three settlement chambers,
in case I ever want to add some mechanical filtration. Anyway, Should my
skimmer empty into my veggie filter as well or should I just loop back to
the pond somewhere? I figured the skimmer output could be used for a nice
water feature of some sort. Also having a short run behind a skimmer would
lessen my need for a sizable pump, I would think.

BV.

You are a wise man John Hines!

--
_______________________________________
"Architecture is the ultimate erotic 'object'."
Bernard Tschumi, "Architecture & Transgression"

http://community.webshots.com/user/godwino
"John Hines" wrote in message
snip
It is like why have a door mat, when the vacuum will get all the dirt
once it gets into the carpet?

I'd hate to cut my liner.
BV.

If you looked at my website you'll see what we did "after the fact, I'm
smarter now" to install skimmer and bottom drain. I don't expect my skimmer
to handle all the leaves that could fall in, what a skimmer really does,
imo, is keep the surface clear of dust, small floating debris AND spawning
foam! Ponds without skimmers often have very dirty surfaces as it takes all
matter different amounts of time to sink, and a dirty surface pond detracts
from looking at the fish, especially when picture taking.

The lily pond is all plumbed with bottom drain & skimmer through the liner
for the eventual filter, years away. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

Based on the religious here, I will probably try BZT (and koi clay too)
this spring.

Having fallen in both my ponds this year, I know what the bottoms are like.
Mine don't need vacuuming yet. But a good jacuzzi heater would be a
winner.

"Nedra" sez:
Don't have either a skimmer or a bottom drain,
Fringe. I do use BZT faithfully and will vacuum
the bottom this spring

Nedra
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/4836
http://community.webshots.com/user/nedra118

"Fringe Ryder" wrote in message
.. .
"BenignVanilla" sez:
My current plan does not include a skimmer. Do you think I'll regret it?

I'm in the minority apparently. I don't have a skimmer. You can see my
pond pics at http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/kc/MyPond.html

If you could put one in easily, do it. But if you can't, it's not going
to
destroy the pond.

And no, I don't have a bottom drain either.

sez:
I forgot... nets also keep fish from jumping to their death. and predators are
always an issue if the pond is outside. I dont even see the fine netting anymore,
but then the health of my fish are more imporant than aesthetics for me. I suppose
one of these years there will be enough sludge in the bottom that I will have to
clean it, but I one of those dont like to put holes in my pond at the very bottom
where if it leaks there would be no water left for my fish. Ingrid

I'm with you. I -had- netting (see my web site for shots with and
without), but settled for fishing line to protect the fishies.

My fear with bottom drains is identical to yours. Getting the waterfall to
not leak was hard enough, and yet the water was supposed to know to go down
it, for example. Trying to make a leak-proof hole in the liner at the
bottom that will stay leakproof for years... too big an effort.

But I do have, in addition to my big pump that runs the waterfall, a small
box filter in the bottom of the larger non-veggie pond. Perhaps that's why
a drain hasn't been needed.

"BenignVanilla" sez:

"Just Me "Koi"" wrote in message
.. .
I vouch for Theron's response. You'll be sorry if you don't do both!
snip

This is where I am confused...if the bottom drain will remove anything that
comes to the bottom, why bother having a skimmer? Why not let it fall, rot,
get sucked and become food for the veggie filter?

I don't have either, but the answer is partially that some gunk floats.
Forever. Like cedar pollen in the summer... you get this film on the
surface.

My waterfalls fix that, as does my regular water change which I do by
overfilling the pond which effectively skims the entire top, but that would
be one advantage of a skimmer over a bottom drain.

wrote:

. design the pond with netting

I've never seen a pond with netting over it, but doesn't it look kind of,
ah, ugly?


Joe



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Trying to make a leak-proof hole in the liner at the
bottom that will stay leakproof for years... too big an effort.

The tetra bottom drain is made so well that I've yet to hear of anyone
locally or elsewhere (and I'm in pond club of 80 some families) having a
leak from the bottom drain.

One ponder when he first put one in didn't put the elbow under the liner in
cement and his ground settle pulling the drain downward, the EPDM
stretched, but was water tight.

Btw, I've heard that putting any fittings thru an old liner isn't worth
trying. Either figure some else out, or buy a new liner. ~ jan

See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website