work for one person will not work for another. We have to redo 3 sides of
my 2000 gallon pond this summer because they were made too steep! The guy
said it would help keep predators out of the pond. YEAH RIGHT! He didn't
mention that the pressure from the surrounding soil would eventually allow
the sides to "fall in."

Huh. Your pond is a liner pond, yes?

In this situation, these are choices:

1. Concrete the pond, over the liner, or:

2. Create a masonry retaining wall for the pond
under the liner, to prevent the caving in.
With heavy blocks, ala Keystone, no mortar is necessary.

He was, at least, right about a bit of predator prevention.

C//

"Courageous" wrote in message
...

** From the bad experiences I've seen and heard about with concrete
ponds
I'm totally discouraged. Besides then we have another huge expense of
hiring professions to mix the concrete and somehow get it to stick to the
rubber liner. Neither myself or my husband have ever worked with
concrete.

You don't have to have, but you'll have to read up on it. If you went the
underlayment-under-the-cement route, you won't have to do a single pour.
You can hand pack

## Hand pack? Putting a thick layer of concrete on the large 4 walls of
this pond would be more than two people our age can handle I believe. The
concrete would have to be several inches thick or more to resist the
pressure of the earth, and reinforced with rebar and chickenwire. Just
mixing the concrete is a job in itself, and the mixture and texture have to
be just right. I remember years ago when my father did his driveway. He
finally went and rented a mixer..... he did everything right BTW and in a
few years there were cracks and bits coming loose.

Eventually it will crack and bits will start to disintegrate under the
water. Water will get behind/between the concrete and liner since
sealing
concrete 100% waterproof is almost impossible. I would have to see one
done
this way a few years (where it freezes in winter) before, to give me some
confidence in putting concrete over rubber.

A good reason for worry. Here in San Diego -- no freezing.

## Here in TN we get some deep freezes in winter and that causes problems
with concrete.

** To get rid of the alkalinity from the concrete.

No I meant the expense. But I see you're on a fairly strict budget.
Okee dokey.

## Yes, unfortunately we are, and I just found out I'm going to lose my
low-cost Tenncare health insurance. I also need several caps at $900 each
and have no dental insurance so can't really afford to spend much on a
hobby.

** That's true but the liner wont *GROW* to fit a bigger hole unless the
concrete was on the OUTSIDE. Remember now, I'm retired and my husband is
semi-retired so our funds are not unlimited anymore. We would have to
hire
someone to do this concrete work and quite honestly I don't think we
could
afford it.

No, I'm doing a big pond, and I won't afford that either. For one thing,
you should never hire a concrete guy for this stuff, but rather a pond
guy, and they often charge about treble for the same job. Artisans --
they always want more. Go figger.

## This is so true. The pond places here are such rip-offs even the wealthy
people we know avoid them. I don't know how they stay in business. Most
people we know, including the financially comfortable, dig and line their
own ponds. And most of these ponds are bowl shape and not collapsing like
our pond is. I think we'll probably go with a bowl shape and hope for the
best. We'll add soil to the bottom and flare out the sides bowl-like.
It'll be a little shallower but wider at the top and the gallonage will
remain the same. That should work. We can do that ourselves and be finished
in a few days, maybe a week. It wont cost us an arm and a leg either. :-)

Anyway, how about "plan B".

Consider the cheapest pre form blocks around: cinder block.

## That would make digging a larger hole necessary and the blocks are about
$1.29 each here. Keep in mind that the rocky soil here in TN in summer when
it's DRY is like a concrete sidewalk to dig. You have to use pick axes and
a maddox and the pond hole is so deep you have to raise the soil out with a
bucket, a bucked at a time by hand. The temperature is in the 90s as is the
humidity and this pond is in the full sun. My husband and I are both 60
years old....... do you see why we so dread redoing this pond?

Stair step them, and fill the holes with earth for weight.
Put the liner over the stairs.
Put big rocks on the stairs above the liner, padding between the rocks
and the liner to prevent punctures.

Go check your local land scape supply / rock yard (not home depot, they
overcharge for stuff like this by as much as 100%) for prices on the
cinderblock. Might be less than you think $$.

## I don't know of any "landscape supply" places here. We have places that
sell landscape plants, shrubs, trees and yard, patio and garden goodies that
charge *much more* than any of the other places selling such things. Lowe's
has blocks for around $1.30 each. But then we're back to hiring someone to
dig the hole larger, remove the soil and set the blocks. I can't even lift
them anymore. I'd be in the ER with my back out.... :-(

Another alternative would be to get a truck and hand collect stones
of a size that you and your husband can handle, possibly with the
assistance of some day labor -- if your region has such stuff in
legally collectible areas of course.

## All we have here is native limstone which is free for the taking. I use
it for everything everywhere.

See my ponds here.
http://tinyurl.com/crtso
It's a quick webpage I just tossed together the other night. I have a much
better, larger page planned. :-)

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
Do not feed the trolls.
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----

This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
that algae.

I spent about 4 hours yesterday trying to fish it out (the algae, that is)
and had the waterfall running 24/7 and still the algae built up although it
is gone by morning. The new stuff that is.

The older stuff just stays.

I won't let it get out of hand, I hope. Can remove the surplus, I hope, and
it has been known to get to 25 below zero here so I'm sure the winter will
take care of them

And would someone please tell me exactly what sweater algae is and looks
like?

Thanks for all your help.

Courageous wrote:

Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----
This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
that algae.



During the day, the water hyacinth will add, not reduce, oxygen to your
pond. At night, they may use it up, particularly if your pond is over
populated with it. One way to ameliorate this would be to make sure that
the water is properly circulated at night. Bottom to top, destratified
somehow, perhaps run through a waterfall if that's not too noisy.

If your pond is small, you won't have a problem with the WH, as long as
you cull them once in when. Actually, this is good, because the WH will
concentrate wastes in a form you can easily access. Toss it in your
compost heap.

If your pond is a large natural one, you may be very, very sorry.

Here's what can happen:

http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg

C//


Let's see, $10.00 - $15.00 per bunch of 17 plants, (plus S&H of course),
aannnnd looks like there are about, oh, I dunno, let me guess, 46,080
plants, divided by say 17 gives us 2711 "bunches" of WH at on the
average of, say, $13.00 per bunch, will gross you about $35,243.00 IF
you can sell them all to us living in zones 1 through 6 cause all ours
get killed off by the in the winter usually by the end of October or mid
November. Yep, every year we buy more. :-) .
Anyway, just food for thought... :-P .
Seriously, though, I know that it is even illegal to ship WH to some
states because that very thing happens. I our ponds though, I would
LOVE to be able to compost because they were doing so well! The few I
purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they are
starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
been getting.

W. Dale

Water hyacinth are good, easy to get out of the
pond for me (compared to water lettuce - but I've
got that too).
Winter will kill them but you really don't want them
in there by winter. A bunch of dead water hyacinth
will fuel a big algae bloom next spring so get them out
before the first frost, or shortly thereafter.

Sweater algae, or substrate algae, grows on surfaces
like rocks, plant baskets, liners. It gets an inch or two
long, is a nice green color and considered good for the
pond since it provides food and shelter for pond critters.

It also helps keep single cell suspended algae (green
pea soup colored water) and the long and tangling string
algae at bay.

kathy :-)
www.blogfromthebog.com
this week ~ Mosquitoes!
Run For Your Life!

Pond 101 page for new pond keepers ~
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

If I could get the prices they get for a few strands of parrots
feather I would have been a multi millionaire by now, inless than a
year. I have hauled literally quite a few 4 x 6 foot utility trailers
of it that were heaped high as they could be. One weekend alone I
pulled and hauled 18 trailer loads of it.....I do have it under
control now, and iot sort of restricted to a small area of approx 12 x
20 feet, but I still have an ocasional PF pull when I runout of things
to do........And this all started from 4 strands the wife bought off
the internet, from a well known Aquatic Plant source which had a big
notice on their website staing that they will not ship any plants to
any states that they are prohibited in., The parrots feather they had
listed wa earmarked as not for sale in Alabama, but it got sent out
and the wife put it in the pond...............and as it grew she would
cut some off and plant it else where and finally we had a forest of
PF.....For some reason or other, my wife is very attracted to noxious
invasive plants for somne reason or other.......she is bad about it.
Cat tails, taro, frog bit, duckweed, fairy moss, WH, horse tails,
water clover..been there done that not fun.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:21:57 -0600, Wilmdale
wrote:

===Courageous wrote:
===
===Probably I shouldn;t have done it and may be very sorry, but----
===This morning I went out and bought six water hyacinth. They will add some
===shade and reduce the oxygen and maybe, just maybe, I will be free of all
===that algae.
===
===
===
===During the day, the water hyacinth will add, not reduce, oxygen to your
===pond. At night, they may use it up, particularly if your pond is over
===populated with it. One way to ameliorate this would be to make sure that
===the water is properly circulated at night. Bottom to top, destratified
===somehow, perhaps run through a waterfall if that's not too noisy.
===
===If your pond is small, you won't have a problem with the WH, as long as
===you cull them once in when. Actually, this is good, because the WH will
===concentrate wastes in a form you can easily access. Toss it in your
===compost heap.
===
===If your pond is a large natural one, you may be very, very sorry.
===
===Here's what can happen:
===
===http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg
===
===C//
===
===
===Let's see, $10.00 - $15.00 per bunch of 17 plants, (plus S&H of course),
===aannnnd looks like there are about, oh, I dunno, let me guess, 46,080
===plants, divided by say 17 gives us 2711 "bunches" of WH at on the
===average of, say, $13.00 per bunch, will gross you about $35,243.00 IF
===you can sell them all to us living in zones 1 through 6 cause all ours
===get killed off by the in the winter usually by the end of October or mid
===November. Yep, every year we buy more. :-) .
===Anyway, just food for thought... :-P .
===Seriously, though, I know that it is even illegal to ship WH to some
===states because that very thing happens. I our ponds though, I would
===LOVE to be able to compost because they were doing so well! The few I
===purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they are
===starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
===been getting.
===
===W. Dale


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

"Courageous" wrote in message
...

## I don't know of any "landscape supply" places here.

Check your phone book. These are the "rock yard" style places that
have big ten foot wide bins of stuff. Usually contractors go there,
but all these places are open to the public.

$$ Oh yes, we have those here. All the places that cater to the ponders
also sell rocks and stone from similar bins.

Don't know what to tell you on the labor. I can't think of any
permanent solutions that don't involve some hefty lifting, and
probably digging.

$$ My husband and I discussed it over lunch. We'll do the bowl shape and
hope that works. That alone will entail a lot of digging and earth moving.
If that fails, then we'll have to call someone in and see what it will cost
to have it done. I'm sure I can get a good recommendation from someone at
the local Pond Club or the place I sell my most of my fish.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"pixi" wrote in message
...
I won't let it get out of hand, I hope. Can remove the surplus, I hope,
and
it has been known to get to 25 below zero here so I'm sure the winter will
take care of them

## The first good frost will do in both water hyacinth and water lettuce.

And would someone please tell me exactly what sweater algae is and looks
like?

## It looks like a green sweater on things. It doesn't grow long and hairy
or jumble into a green ball

--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Wilmdale" wrote in message
...
The few I purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they
are starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
been getting.

W. Dale
---------------
They've probably used up most of the nutrients in the water.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Wilmdale" wrote:
The few I purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday they
are starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we have
been getting.

Reel Mckoi" wrote:
They've probably used up most of the nutrients in the water.

I doubt that. Hale means low temperatures and water hyacinths don't
like cold one bit. I kept mine alive in a greenhouse all winter and
they were yellow all winter until it got stinking hot in the greenhouse.
When it got warm they greened up nicely.
--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
18,000 gallon (17'x 47'x 2-4') lily pond garden in Zone 6
Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA

$$ I think concrete BEHIND the liner may work better.

Why?

C//

I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the soil
shifts and the uneven pressure cracks it. I can't see using rebar or
chicken wire OVER the liner to help stabilize the concrete.

You can use the wire. Check http://www.wetwebmedia.com. Bob Fenner, who
runs the place, operated a pond business for years here using just this
technique.

Still, I don't see any real problem with putting the liner over the concrete
if you're so inclined. You might ask Bob what he thinks of that; he
answers questions very quickly.

Also, the alkalinity problems caused by concrete

You use a plastic cement; even then you have to cure the pond. Often
one runs vinegar through it for a while.

C//

I don't want to be scooping up chips and chunks of concrete when the soil

## Run vinegar through it? Wouldn't that be impractical in a 2000 gallon
pond?

No, but you don't use 100% vinegar. The point is to get the PH of the water
down to as low as you can get it. You can also cure the outside of the concrete
with muriatic acid.

I know my husband wants it fixed where the "fix" is permanent. It's
too expensive to fill and rinse a few times should concrete be on the
inside.

Eh?

Also, concrete would take up space and leave the gallonage less
than 2000.

You can dig more.

C//

http://tncweeds.ucdavis.edu/photos/eiccr04.jpg

C//

Oh My Goodness!

For those of you who went looking thru the Toscano website, you might
remember this statue: http://tinyurl.com/az8fy When I saw it, I could
easily imagine that elephant traveling thru a pond full of duckweed, or in
this case a pond such as the website at the top. ;-) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Stephen Henning" wrote in message
news
"Wilmdale" wrote:
The few I purchased this year are multiplying but I noticed yesterday
they
are starting to get a bit yellowish in color. Maybe due to the hail we
have
been getting.

Reel Mckoi" wrote:
They've probably used up most of the nutrients in the water.

I doubt that. Hale means low temperatures and water hyacinths don't
like cold one bit. I kept mine alive in a greenhouse all winter and
they were yellow all winter until it got stinking hot in the greenhouse.
When it got warm they greened up nicely.
============================
OK, mine start to yellow when they run out of nutrients. A heaping Tbs.
Potash per 1000 gallons always greens them up nicely. We get hail here but
it doesn't yellow them, just tears up the leaves. They do best in water
with 10-10-10 fertilizer but then the water greens up as well. I don't use
10-10-10 in my ponds but do in the propagation tanks.
--
McKoi.... the frugal ponder...
EVERYONE: "Please check people's headers for forgeries
before flushing." NAMES ARE BEING FORGED.
My Pond Page http://tinyurl.com/crtso
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o