On 16/12/06 22:26, in article , "ScotGard"
wrote:


Anthony Stokes Wrote:
Does anyone know of this type of small (Korean origin) tree flowering
out-of-doors in England ?
If so, at what age does it start to show flowers in our summertime ?

It seems to be quite tricky to get success with.
The tree doesn't seem to mind cold and damp winters in the garden, but
is
very reluctant to grow any leaves at all until daily temperature is
peaking
well above 20C ( ie very late May or June ).



Anthony ( 30Km east of London )
Hi Anthony,
At the moment I have a spring planted species about 1.5m tall with not
a leave dropped, two heavy frosts so far. We are located in central
Scotland and will keep you posted as to progress.
Our first sighting of this beautiful plant was in a town square in
Switzerland(Valais) We observed over many summers and winters and was
always stunning.

There used to be one in our South Devon garden and friends of mine in the
Loire valley had one. Both died and I suspect wet had as much or more to do
with it than cold.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:22:24 +0000
Sacha wrote:

On 16/12/06 22:26, in article , "ScotGard"
wrote:


Anthony Stokes Wrote:
Does anyone know of this type of small (Korean origin) tree flowering
out-of-doors in England ?
If so, at what age does it start to show flowers in our summertime ?

It seems to be quite tricky to get success with.
The tree doesn't seem to mind cold and damp winters in the garden, but
is
very reluctant to grow any leaves at all until daily temperature is
peaking
well above 20C ( ie very late May or June ).



Anthony ( 30Km east of London )
Hi Anthony,
At the moment I have a spring planted species about 1.5m tall with not
a leave dropped, two heavy frosts so far. We are located in central
Scotland and will keep you posted as to progress.
Our first sighting of this beautiful plant was in a town square in
Switzerland(Valais) We observed over many summers and winters and was
always stunning.

There used to be one in our South Devon garden and friends of mine in the
Loire valley had one. Both died and I suspect wet had as much or more to do
with it than cold.


Hello Sacha,

Apparently the cultivar 'Ombrella' is less sensitive to cold winters in our climate.
So it was explained to me, and I planted it in a quite dry spot in spring 2003.
It has to say the least not flourished, dying back a little more every year, although
I keep hoping it will turn around. It flowered in 03 but hasn't since. I suspect the
lack of warm late summer temperatures to ripen the wood is the main culprit.
Of course it may not appreciate the fogs of winter, either, so no doubt the
wet is a factor.

I asked the nurseryman I got it from, only a few weeks ago, what he'd recommend.
He was most unhelpful, replying that "they sell loads, they all do well." Thanks a
bunch! So if you've any advice I'd be most grateful.

I don't think it's the cold per se because as a lad we had a "Mimosa" (as the yanks
call the silk tree or Albizia julibrissin) growing outside of NY city. It was a large tree
that always bloomed spectacularly and had no problems at all with the very tough
winters. I think because the summers there are really hot, too, and of course the
winters are dryer as well.

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

In article ,
Emery Davis writes:
|
| I suspect the
| lack of warm late summer temperatures to ripen the wood is the main culprit.
| Of course it may not appreciate the fogs of winter, either, so no doubt the
| wet is a factor.

That is what Bean thinks. Apparently the same is true of Daphne genkwa,
only even more so.

I suspect that there are quite a lot of such plants, though the exact
combinations of factors that they dislike may vary. Halesia monticola
and Cercis canadiensis showed signs of not thinking much of our summers,
as well.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 17/12/06 16:33, in article ,
"Emery Davis" wrote:

snip

snip

I don't think it's the cold per se because as a lad we had a "Mimosa" (as the
yanks
call the silk tree or Albizia julibrissin) growing outside of NY city. It was
a large tree
that always bloomed spectacularly and had no problems at all with the very
tough
winters. I think because the summers there are really hot, too, and of course
the
winters are dryer as well.

I think the wet must be a more significant factor than anything else. I
asked Ray about it and he said that, even here, he doesn't think it's
particularly successful. Certainly it's said not to be hardy but if it can
withstand an NY winter........! Thinking of the 'wet' factor, I know that
the year the one died in my friends' garden in France, they'd had masses of
snow which had lain for weeks, feet deep in places. Perhaps the steady
thawing of that into the roots of their tree, plus cold weather, finished it
off. I'm suspicious of your nurseryman's claims that others he's sold
flower well. How does he know? Our experience is that while customers DO
sometimes remark on things that do particularly well, you hear much quicker
about things that don't!
It sounds as if its requirements might be rather like those of Lagerstroemia
(sp?) which flowers its socks off in Bergerac where summers are pretty hot
and long but where winters can be very windy, apparently. One nurseryman
told us that they tie the trees up in fleece during the winter, even though
they are comparatively mild. We brought a couple back for us and for David
Poole and I think his did pretty well in his v. sheltered, walled garden
whereas ours sulked and only do anything in the greenhouses.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On 17/12/06 16:52, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article ,
Emery Davis writes:
|
| I suspect the
| lack of warm late summer temperatures to ripen the wood is the main
culprit.
| Of course it may not appreciate the fogs of winter, either, so no doubt the
| wet is a factor.

That is what Bean thinks. Apparently the same is true of Daphne genkwa,
only even more so.

I suspect that there are quite a lot of such plants, though the exact
combinations of factors that they dislike may vary. Halesia monticola
and Cercis canadiensis showed signs of not thinking much of our summers,
as well.

They seem to do well down here and our C.canadensis is smothered in flowers.
I know Halesia does pretty well here and in the Cis where winters are milder
than many parts of UK but where it is also wet. My son's garden has a
Halesia planted years ago by his grandfather BUT, because he believed one
saw it at its best if looking up into it, he planted his Halesia on a high
bank, so perhaps the excellent drainage is a major factor there.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:26:04 +0000
Sacha wrote:

On 17/12/06 16:33, in article ,
"Emery Davis" wrote:

snip

snip

I don't think it's the cold per se because as a lad we had a "Mimosa" (as the
yanks
call the silk tree or Albizia julibrissin) growing outside of NY city. It was
a large tree
that always bloomed spectacularly and had no problems at all with the very
tough
winters. I think because the summers there are really hot, too, and of course
the
winters are dryer as well.

I think the wet must be a more significant factor than anything else. I
asked Ray about it and he said that, even here, he doesn't think it's
particularly successful. Certainly it's said not to be hardy but if it can
withstand an NY winter........! Thinking of the 'wet' factor, I know that
the year the one died in my friends' garden in France, they'd had masses of
snow which had lain for weeks, feet deep in places. Perhaps the steady
thawing of that into the roots of their tree, plus cold weather, finished it

There are masses of these growing around La Rochelle and on the Isle de Ré.
Certainly it's very wet there too, although perhaps not so much as here
in Normandy or in Devon. But I wonder if soil drainage plays a key role,
since it's certainly very sandy there. Whatever you may say about my
soil here, well drained it's not! (I jump through constant hoops for my
maples, some more successful than others. Didn't do anything special
for the Albizia though.)

Like Crepe Myrtle it's indeed said not to be hardy, but I always thought it
was because of the NY experience. I also admired the C.M. around La Rochelle,
and am determined to grow one at some point. I've heard there is a hardier
cultivar, but have never found out which one it is.

off. I'm suspicious of your nurseryman's claims that others he's sold
flower well. How does he know? Our experience is that while customers DO
sometimes remark on things that do particularly well, you hear much quicker
about things that don't!

My thoughts exactly. It was a rather glib response. He didn't ask me
about position, soil, nothing. (That's what I get for dealing with the son
and not the father, perhaps!)

It sounds as if its requirements might be rather like those of Lagerstroemia
(sp?) which flowers its socks off in Bergerac where summers are pretty hot
and long but where winters can be very windy, apparently. One nurseryman
told us that they tie the trees up in fleece during the winter, even though
they are comparatively mild. We brought a couple back for us and for David
Poole and I think his did pretty well in his v. sheltered, walled garden
whereas ours sulked and only do anything in the greenhouses.

Interesting. Ah, for a walled garden...

cheers,

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

On 17/12/06 20:20, in article ,
"Emery Davis" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:26:04 +0000
Sacha wrote:

On 17/12/06 16:33, in article ,
"Emery Davis" wrote:

snip

snip

I don't think it's the cold per se because as a lad we had a "Mimosa" (as
the
yanks
call the silk tree or Albizia julibrissin) growing outside of NY city. It
was
a large tree
that always bloomed spectacularly and had no problems at all with the very
tough
winters. I think because the summers there are really hot, too, and of
course
the
winters are dryer as well.

I think the wet must be a more significant factor than anything else. I
asked Ray about it and he said that, even here, he doesn't think it's
particularly successful. Certainly it's said not to be hardy but if it can
withstand an NY winter........! Thinking of the 'wet' factor, I know that
the year the one died in my friends' garden in France, they'd had masses of
snow which had lain for weeks, feet deep in places. Perhaps the steady
thawing of that into the roots of their tree, plus cold weather, finished it

There are masses of these growing around La Rochelle and on the Isle de Ré.
Certainly it's very wet there too, although perhaps not so much as here
in Normandy or in Devon.

Our part of Devon & Normandy always strike me as being very much alike,
though I know nothing of the construction of the soil. But both have lush
grass, rich pastureland and are excellent dairy farming country.

But I wonder if soil drainage plays a key role,
since it's certainly very sandy there. Whatever you may say about my
soil here, well drained it's not! (I jump through constant hoops for my
maples, some more successful than others. Didn't do anything special
for the Albizia though.)

Like Crepe Myrtle it's indeed said not to be hardy, but I always thought it
was because of the NY experience. I also admired the C.M. around La Rochelle,
and am determined to grow one at some point. I've heard there is a hardier
cultivar, but have never found out which one it is.

I can't help but I'll ask David P if he know. La Rochelle is what Channel
Islanders call 'around the corner' and it makes a considerable difference as
to climate.

off. I'm suspicious of your nurseryman's claims that others he's sold
flower well. How does he know? Our experience is that while customers DO
sometimes remark on things that do particularly well, you hear much quicker
about things that don't!

My thoughts exactly. It was a rather glib response. He didn't ask me
about position, soil, nothing. (That's what I get for dealing with the son
and not the father, perhaps!)

Tsk! Not here. ;-)

It sounds as if its requirements might be rather like those of Lagerstroemia
(sp?) which flowers its socks off in Bergerac where summers are pretty hot
and long but where winters can be very windy, apparently. One nurseryman
told us that they tie the trees up in fleece during the winter, even though
they are comparatively mild. We brought a couple back for us and for David
Poole and I think his did pretty well in his v. sheltered, walled garden
whereas ours sulked and only do anything in the greenhouses.

Interesting. Ah, for a walled garden...

David's is minute but a wonderful example of what can be done to create a
micro climate. I remember him telling me that one Christmas Day he'd picked
his own oranges to make orange sauce for the roast duck!

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

In article , Sacha writes:
|
| They seem to do well down here and our C.canadensis is smothered in flowers.
| I know Halesia does pretty well here and in the Cis where winters are milder
| than many parts of UK but where it is also wet. My son's garden has a
| Halesia planted years ago by his grandfather BUT, because he believed one
| saw it at its best if looking up into it, he planted his Halesia on a high
| bank, so perhaps the excellent drainage is a major factor there.

I lost one Halesia out of two this summer, and neither had exactly
thrived. I lost my seedling C. canadensis one winter, and it hadn't
grown very fast before that. However, I do get more of a frost+wet
mixture than you do, and I am 90% certain that the garden has some
root-attacking fungi in the soil. My seedling Albizia is still alive,
but hasn't so far made much more growth in a summer than it loses in
the winter. And Erythrina crista-galli seems similar.

I suspect that tenderness of that nature is more a matter of mixed
conditions than mere extremes - e.g. frost damages the roots, and
then the cool, wet ones allow attacks without enabling it to recover.
At least for SOME such plants!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote after
Emery Davis writes:
|
| I suspect the
| lack of warm late summer temperatures to ripen the wood is the main
culprit.
| Of course it may not appreciate the fogs of winter, either, so no doubt
the
| wet is a factor.

That is what Bean thinks. Apparently the same is true of Daphne genkwa,
only even more so.

I suspect that there are quite a lot of such plants, though the exact
combinations of factors that they dislike may vary. Halesia monticola
and Cercis canadiensis showed signs of not thinking much of our summers,
as well.

A friend has a good sized one in her garden in France and that took a
temperature of -14°C last winter without batting an eyelid, but it's dry
during the winter there. Neighbours of hers even have Oleander outside that
only got slightly frosted.
I'm convinced it's our combination of wet winters and lack of hot summer sun
to ripen the wood that makes them difficult in the UK. So many plants flower
better the year after we have a good hot summer.
Notice that Kew has planted a couple but up on banks so they have good
drainage.

My first year seedlings will have to take their chance idc.

What I can't understand is someone on here a while ago said they were a
popular tree in the Lake District, is that true?

--
Regards
Bob H
17mls W. of London.UK

On 17/12/06 23:26, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article , Sacha
writes:
|
| They seem to do well down here and our C.canadensis is smothered in
flowers.
| I know Halesia does pretty well here and in the Cis where winters are
milder
| than many parts of UK but where it is also wet. My son's garden has a
| Halesia planted years ago by his grandfather BUT, because he believed one
| saw it at its best if looking up into it, he planted his Halesia on a high
| bank, so perhaps the excellent drainage is a major factor there.

I lost one Halesia out of two this summer, and neither had exactly
thrived. I lost my seedling C. canadensis one winter, and it hadn't
grown very fast before that. However, I do get more of a frost+wet
mixture than you do, and I am 90% certain that the garden has some
root-attacking fungi in the soil. My seedling Albizia is still alive,
but hasn't so far made much more growth in a summer than it loses in
the winter. And Erythrina crista-galli seems similar.

I suspect that tenderness of that nature is more a matter of mixed
conditions than mere extremes - e.g. frost damages the roots, and
then the cool, wet ones allow attacks without enabling it to recover.
At least for SOME such plants!

I'm sure you're right. Sometimes people forget that plants are living
things and have their own temperament. I think we've all experienced plants
that you move from one side of the garden to the other or even maybe 6' and
they thrive, whereas before, they sulked. One side of our garden is good
for rhodies, the other not so good but strangely is fine for Camellias.
OTOH, at the bottom of the garden in a very dry spot in summer, we have a
wonderful splurge of Arum lilies. It's always worth pushing the envelope.
;-)


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On 17/12/06 23:29, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Nick Maclaren" wrote after
Emery Davis writes:
|
| I suspect the
| lack of warm late summer temperatures to ripen the wood is the main
culprit.
| Of course it may not appreciate the fogs of winter, either, so no doubt
the
| wet is a factor.

That is what Bean thinks. Apparently the same is true of Daphne genkwa,
only even more so.

I suspect that there are quite a lot of such plants, though the exact
combinations of factors that they dislike may vary. Halesia monticola
and Cercis canadiensis showed signs of not thinking much of our summers,
as well.

A friend has a good sized one in her garden in France and that took a
temperature of -14°C last winter without batting an eyelid, but it's dry
during the winter there. Neighbours of hers even have Oleander outside that
only got slightly frosted.
I'm convinced it's our combination of wet winters and lack of hot summer sun
to ripen the wood that makes them difficult in the UK. So many plants flower
better the year after we have a good hot summer.

I'm sure that's right.

Notice that Kew has planted a couple but up on banks so they have good
drainage.

I think that's probably the key to a lot of plants that fail to make it in
British gardens - they are just too wet and soggy at their feet.

My first year seedlings will have to take their chance idc.

What I can't understand is someone on here a while ago said they were a
popular tree in the Lake District, is that true?

Which? Halesia or Cercis? Or Albizia?

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

In article , Sacha writes:
|
| I'm sure you're right. Sometimes people forget that plants are living
| things and have their own temperament. I think we've all experienced plants
| that you move from one side of the garden to the other or even maybe 6' and
| they thrive, whereas before, they sulked. One side of our garden is good
| for rhodies, the other not so good but strangely is fine for Camellias.
| OTOH, at the bottom of the garden in a very dry spot in summer, we have a
| wonderful splurge of Arum lilies. It's always worth pushing the envelope.
| ;-)

Yes. I am quite chuffed that I seem to have worked out how to grow
Passiflora incarnata - I don't get a lot of flowers (and no fruit),
but it IS on a north-east wall. The key is to grow it in the rain
shadow of the eaves, just like Cyclamen coum, but with the ability
to run its root out to where the rain falls. It took me quite a few
tries to work that out!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Sacha" wrote ((huge snip))

What I can't understand is someone on here a while ago said they were a
popular tree in the Lake District, is that true?

Which? Halesia or Cercis? Or Albizia?


Albzia.

--
Regards
Bob H
17mls W. of London.UK

On 18/12/06 00:00, in article , "Bob
Hobden" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote ((huge snip))

What I can't understand is someone on here a while ago said they were a
popular tree in the Lake District, is that true?

Which? Halesia or Cercis? Or Albizia?


Albzia.

I don't remember that but it seems unlikely, somehow. I've only been to the
Lake District twice but I certainly don't recall seeing them. My hosts were
keen and knowledgeable gardeners who'd lived in their house for generations
and there were none in the garden of the house I was staying at.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:59:01 +0000
Sacha wrote:

Certainly it's very wet there too, although perhaps not so much as here
in Normandy or in Devon.

Our part of Devon & Normandy always strike me as being very much alike,
though I know nothing of the construction of the soil. But both have lush
grass, rich pastureland and are excellent dairy farming country.

I think there are a lot of climatic similarities. Of course both are pretty
big -- Normandy would be the largest region in France, so Nappy split it
in two to keep it from being too powerful -- so there's quite a lot of variation.

In fact our part of Basse-Normandie is the poorest soil of the region, classed
as category IV by the government, which means "unsuitable for culture." This
is really a tax issue, and in our favour, more than anything else. We have acid
soil. about 1-3 ft depending on the spot, over a heavy clay substrate which my
children make into pots without additional processing. There are places where
if you dig a hole it will stay filled with water all winter, then dry and bake hard
in the summer. And, thankfully, other places a little less challenging. But everywhere,
huge amounts of rock. Big, square flint, and some granite. Makes digging a joy.

I had always thought most of the south west to be fairly alkaline, is it not?

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies