Hi all,

I have a friend who has asked me a question that I thought I'd pose to
those more knowledgeable than myself.

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful. As a consequence he has a mass of seeds.

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

I told him that I thought they would as long as they weren't F1 hybrids
(I don't know if you can get F1 hybrid Ipomoea).
Am I right in my opinion?

Any advice is very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance,
Tony.

Hi Tony

I have also collected seeds (ex Grandpa Otts). My knowledge in this area is
vague, but I reasoned that as I bought them in a packet as a named variety
they must come true from seed to be given a name. The only problem would be
if you had another variety nearby - even in a neighbour's garden - you could
get cross fertilisation. But I imaging once the gap is more than a certain
number of feet the chance is small.

When I started gardening I wondered why you could get some named varieties
from seed such as Ipomea, but not others such as named Asters. I still do
not fully understand the biology but accept that the seed catalogues never
lie (possibly!).

Peter


"Tony Carnell" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all,

I have a friend who has asked me a question that I thought I'd pose to
those more knowledgeable than myself.

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful. As a consequence he has a mass of seeds.

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

I told him that I thought they would as long as they weren't F1 hybrids
(I don't know if you can get F1 hybrid Ipomoea).
Am I right in my opinion?

Any advice is very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance,
Tony.

In article ,
Tony Carnell wrote:

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful. As a consequence he has a mass of seeds.

They do that :-)

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

Probably not.

I told him that I thought they would as long as they weren't F1 hybrids
(I don't know if you can get F1 hybrid Ipomoea).
Am I right in my opinion?

No. But some of them will, vaguely. They will all be attractive,
so it is worth a go. Now, when I collect Ipomoea seed, they DO
come true to type - but they are I. alba (a.ka. I. bona-nox, a.k.a.
Calonyction aculeatum) :-)

The point is that species breed true (whatever that means) but
varieties don't.



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Tony Carnell" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all,

I have a friend who has asked me a question that I thought I'd pose to
those more knowledgeable than myself.

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful. As a consequence he has a mass of seeds.

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

I told him that I thought they would as long as they weren't F1 hybrids (I
don't know if you can get F1 hybrid Ipomoea).
Am I right in my opinion?

Any advice is very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance,
Tony.

I save seeds from my Ipomea and they come true to type.
They are the dark purpley-blue variety.

For effect, next year I will mix them with some of a different colour (
reddish I think ), so That'll be an interesting experiment.

Andy

Nick

I can see the logic that they will not come true. But if that is the case -
what was the packet of seed that they originally came from. How was that
produced . If it is a named variety - you assume that it is not variable
and hence came true from its own parents. I am assuming that there are no
other varieties close enough to get cross fertilisation, ie that both
parents came from the same packet. Or do seed suppliers give a named
variety to a packet of seed always knowing that they are not all the same.

Peter



"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tony Carnell wrote:

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

No. But some of them will, vaguely. They will all be attractive,
so it is worth a go. Now, when I collect Ipomoea seed, they DO
come true to type - but they are I. alba (a.ka. I. bona-nox, a.k.a.
Calonyction aculeatum) :-)

The point is that species breed true (whatever that means) but
varieties don't.



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Hi, we get self sown ipomea from one we grew some years ago, I believe the
name is 'star of yalta'. This is the dark purple version and is always very
welcome.
Regards Grannie Annie

"peterlsutton" wrote in message
...
Nick

I can see the logic that they will not come true. But if that is the
case -
what was the packet of seed that they originally came from. How was that
produced . If it is a named variety - you assume that it is not variable
and hence came true from its own parents. I am assuming that there are no
other varieties close enough to get cross fertilisation, ie that both
parents came from the same packet. Or do seed suppliers give a named
variety to a packet of seed always knowing that they are not all the same.

Peter



"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tony Carnell wrote:

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

No. But some of them will, vaguely. They will all be attractive,
so it is worth a go. Now, when I collect Ipomoea seed, they DO
come true to type - but they are I. alba (a.ka. I. bona-nox, a.k.a.
Calonyction aculeatum) :-)

The point is that species breed true (whatever that means) but
varieties don't.



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
peterlsutton wrote:

I can see the logic that they will not come true. But if that is the case -
what was the packet of seed that they originally came from. How was that
produced . If it is a named variety - you assume that it is not variable
and hence came true from its own parents. I am assuming that there are no
other varieties close enough to get cross fertilisation, ie that both
parents came from the same packet. Or do seed suppliers give a named
variety to a packet of seed always knowing that they are not all the same.

I should know better than to post after having just flown in from
the west of the USA! Sorry. My posting was massively confusing,
and other people have explained it better.

As David Poole says, if you have a stable, single variety, then it
will come more-or-less true. F1 hybrids won't, packets that include
a mixture of varieties won't, and ones pollinated from neighbouring
plants won't. There are also a few rarer and more obscure, reasons
that things may not come true. In my experience, this means that an
amateur gardener can rarely get varieties of common annuals to come
completely true.

I don't know how Ipomoeas are pollinated in the UK, but I do know
that the ones that self-seeded one year in my garden were different
from their parents.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Tony Carnell" wrote in message
. uk...
Hi all,

I have a friend who has asked me a question that I thought I'd pose to
those more knowledgeable than myself.

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful. As a consequence he has a mass of seeds.

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

I told him that I thought they would as long as they weren't F1 hybrids
(I don't know if you can get F1 hybrid Ipomoea).
Am I right in my opinion?

Any advice is very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance,

I usually get a few self seeders from the previous year. These have always
been smaller flowered and darker, closer to purple than blue. They are,
however, still very pretty and flower just as profusely given some good
weather, but they do seem to be a little more weedy/straggly.

Mine have! I 've saved Ipomoea seeds for the past six years and they have
always flowered true to type, 'Star of Yalta'; now it seems re-named,
'Grandpa Otts'. However, a friend in the USA sent me seeds of his
I.quamoclit 'Cardinal Climber', which came to nothing. Perhaps the seeds
needed more warmth early spring here in the UK.

Mike Roscoe
----
Remove the 'cold stuff' to reply.
----
"Tony Carnell" wrote: .
Hi all,

I have a friend who has asked me a question that I thought I'd pose to
those more knowledgeable than myself.

He has grown some Ipomoea (Morning Glory) this summer and was very
successful. As a consequence he has a mass of seeds.

If he saves these seeds to sow next year, will they come true to type?

In article , Mike Roscoe
writes
Mine have! I 've saved Ipomoea seeds for the past six years and they have
always flowered true to type, 'Star of Yalta'; now it seems re-named,
'Grandpa Otts'. However, a friend in the USA sent me seeds of his
I.quamoclit 'Cardinal Climber', which came to nothing. Perhaps the seeds
needed more warmth early spring here in the UK.

Mike Roscoe


Ha! I gave up on them, visitors all thought that they were
columbine/bindweed and one even pulled one up as she waited for me to
answer the front door!
The double red ones were really lovely but I noticed that they didn't
set as much seed as the others, and once put in you'll be getting the
white ones with stripes for YEARS............ I had to keep picking off
the flowers in case they cross pollinated the red doubles. Though I
tried to trace back the tendrils of the white ones and pulled them up
only to see three red double ones slowly wither from the top about 10
foot up,
it dawned on me slowly that I hadn't chosen the correct stems

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In a similar vien to the debate about true-breeding named varities, last
summer I bought a named variety of Heuchera which has a label stating that
"breeder's rights" prohibit the propagation of this plant. Now, one reason I
like heucheras is that a plant becomes a big clump - you split it up - each
new clump gets bigger - you split it up .... etc. that, and the amazing
variety of leaf shape and colour.
Does UK law actually allow the breeder of a plant variety to tell me that I
can't propagate it? or is this just a threat that civil action might be
tried if I sold offsets as the named plant?

Duncan

In article ,
Duncan wrote:
In a similar vien to the debate about true-breeding named varities, last
summer I bought a named variety of Heuchera which has a label stating that
"breeder's rights" prohibit the propagation of this plant. Now, one reason I
like heucheras is that a plant becomes a big clump - you split it up - each
new clump gets bigger - you split it up .... etc. that, and the amazing
variety of leaf shape and colour.
Does UK law actually allow the breeder of a plant variety to tell me that I
can't propagate it? or is this just a threat that civil action might be
tried if I sold offsets as the named plant?

Both. It allows them to TELL you anything, but the only effect of
plant breeders' rights is that you are liable for civil damages
if you propagate them for sale. I should have to read the Act to
see the exact conditions, but propagation for your own use and gifts
is your right.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 1/12/05 20:35, in article
, "Duncan"
wrote:

In a similar vien to the debate about true-breeding named varities, last
summer I bought a named variety of Heuchera which has a label stating that
"breeder's rights" prohibit the propagation of this plant. Now, one reason I
like heucheras is that a plant becomes a big clump - you split it up - each
new clump gets bigger - you split it up .... etc. that, and the amazing
variety of leaf shape and colour.
Does UK law actually allow the breeder of a plant variety to tell me that I
can't propagate it? or is this just a threat that civil action might be
tried if I sold offsets as the named plant?

Duncan


The rights to that plant belong to its breeder. It's like a patent. The
plant breeder gets a royalty for every plant sold. It's very unlikely that
any breeder is going to 'get you' for propagating and giving away a few
plants but could they? Yes. My husband has a very successful Nemesia which
has earned thousands of pounds. It is 'patented' for breeding in USA and
Japan - where it is very popular indeed - but we did find out that a grower
abroad was propagating it without a licence and Ray's agent took the matter
in hand. Is there a way of proving it's that plant or some un-named plant
of your own? Yes. These plants undergo trials for that very reason. Some
are a commercial cert, some are not. If they get PBR, Plant Breeder's
Rights, they are protected.
To put it more clearly, I knew the inventor of the Black & Decker Workmate.
Like me, he lived in Jersey. He told me that not a day went by that his
agents (who I knew also) weren't fighting some breach of patent somewhere in
the world.)
Just because they're plants doesn't mean they are not commercially viable.
After all, someone has paid to develop them, or find them, breed them, bulk
them up, trial them and then pay to patent them.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Sacha" wrote in message
.uk...
On 1/12/05 20:35, in article
, "Duncan"
wrote:

In a similar vien to the debate about true-breeding named varities, last
summer I bought a named variety of Heuchera which has a label stating
that
"breeder's rights" prohibit the propagation of this plant. Now, one
reason I
like heucheras is that a plant becomes a big clump - you split it up -
each
new clump gets bigger - you split it up .... etc. that, and the amazing
variety of leaf shape and colour.
Does UK law actually allow the breeder of a plant variety to tell me
that I
can't propagate it? or is this just a threat that civil action might be
tried if I sold offsets as the named plant?

Duncan


The rights to that plant belong to its breeder. It's like a patent. The
plant breeder gets a royalty for every plant sold. It's very unlikely
that
any breeder is going to 'get you' for propagating and giving away a few
plants but could they? Yes. My husband has a very successful Nemesia
which
has earned thousands of pounds. It is 'patented' for breeding in USA and
Japan - where it is very popular indeed - but we did find out that a
grower
abroad was propagating it without a licence and Ray's agent took the
matter
in hand. Is there a way of proving it's that plant or some un-named
plant
of your own? Yes. These plants undergo trials for that very reason.
Some
are a commercial cert, some are not. If they get PBR, Plant Breeder's
Rights, they are protected.
To put it more clearly, I knew the inventor of the Black & Decker
Workmate.
Like me, he lived in Jersey. He told me that not a day went by that his
agents (who I knew also) weren't fighting some breach of patent somewhere
in
the world.)
Just because they're plants doesn't mean they are not commercially viable.
After all, someone has paid to develop them, or find them, breed them,
bulk
them up, trial them and then pay to patent them.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

So watch out those of you with Ipomoea seeds, Grandpa Otts's agents will be
coming to get you !

Absolutely right that plant breeders should have protection for the returns
on their hefty investment in time and funds to develop a plant variety, and
can try to get redress if someone who hasn't done the work is cashing in on
the variety.

But I just have to question one assertion in the post above. As PBRs "do not
extend to any act done for private or non-commercial purposes..." (
www.defra.gov.uk/planth/pvs/pbrguide.htm ), how could anyone possibly "get "
anyone for "propagating and giving away a few plants" with this exclusion?

Duncan

On 2/12/05 9:36 pm, in article
, "Duncan"
wrote:
snip

But I just have to question one assertion in the post above. As PBRs "do not
extend to any act done for private or non-commercial purposes..." (
www.defra.gov.uk/planth/pvs/pbrguide.htm ), how could anyone possibly "get "
anyone for "propagating and giving away a few plants" with this exclusion?

You're right. I should have said 'selling' or perhaps, 'profiting from', in
case someone exchanges them for a few beers or some wine. ;-)
I can't see my husband getting in a lather over someone passing a few plants
around to friends but he and his agent have most certainly acted over a
wholesale nursery (outside UK) who thought they were getting away with
illegally propagating that Nemesia. The profits vary enormously according
to the type of plant and its popularity but they can be very considerable -
think of David Austin's roses, for example. They're sold all over the world
and this Nemesia, while not in that category, was and is still a 'nice
little earner', selling all over USA, Canada, Europe and Japan. In
California, they treat it like a perennial, which is probably not good for
business but it was interesting to see. ;-)
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)