In article .com,
"Mike Lyle" writes:
|
| It's very interesting if you like that kind of thing: if I may dare to
| summarise, maize does have a single wild ancestor, called teosinte, but
| it doesn't look like maize. The ancestral mutation wasn't a hybrid,
| though all our forms are its hybriid descendants, and it did suddenly
| come about in prehistoric times. There was once a view that "Indian
| corn" came from extinct ancestors, but that's been shown to be wrong by
| modern genetic studies.

I looked it up in my Encyclopaedia Britannica before posting, and that
said that the genes for bare seeds probably came from another species
of maize, so it may well be an ancient hybrid (like plums).


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Mike Lyle wrote:


In any case, the big objection to the plan is Nick's, reinforced by
you: the virtual impossibility of ripening seed in the British climate.


Round here in Lincolnshire there are huge stands of maize, used as a
cover crop for game birds, I imagine at some time the corn would have
been at an eatable state, its now mostly hard as nails. The cobs are
full of dark yellow kernels.

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 Mike Lyle wrote:

Why do you want non-hybrid sweetcorn?

So I can save the seed and get the same variety for the next year!

I don't think it would work; as I mentioned before, I think all
sweet
corn, like all our cereals, is the product of hybridisation.

I don't think this is universally right Mike. I know that some of the
old forms of sweet corn can still be bought (at least in Oz) but I
don't know how they'd go in a cooler UK growing season (although given
that many UK gardeners seem to have access to tunnel houses etc, then
that should help it grow. The firm mentioned below has a range of
corn including Bali and Anasasi corn
http://www.edenseeds.com.au/content/main.html

When I said "hybridisation", I didn't mean recently: as far as I knew,
the recognisable ancestor arose in prehistoric times, and there wasn't
a true species in the wild. In the absence of our botanist, Stewart
Robert Hinsley, I've Ggld up a scientific article, which shows I'm
wrong, but partly right!
http://sciencecareerst.sciencemag.or...revious_issues
/articles/3290/ancestors_of_science_prehistoric_gm_corn
or
http://tinyurl.com/trxog

It's very interesting if you like that kind of thing: if I may dare to
summarise, maize does have a single wild ancestor, called teosinte, but
it doesn't look like maize. The ancestral mutation wasn't a hybrid,
though all our forms are its hybriid descendants, and it did suddenly
come about in prehistoric times. There was once a view that "Indian
corn" came from extinct ancestors, but that's been shown to be wrong by
modern genetic studies.

In any case, the big objection to the plan is Nick's, reinforced by
you: the virtual impossibility of ripening seed in the British climate.

My two penn'oth: It *is* possible to ripen sweetcorn seeds in Britain
because I've done it. Some ten years ago now, but I certainly did it. I
can still remember how fiddly it was to detach the dried seed from the
cob! However the resulting plants the following year were a little
disappointing as the cobs weren't as large nor as sweet. I don't think
the original seed I bought was an F1 but it was clearly a hybrid. And
bearing in mind that sweetcorn is different to agricultural maize, I
suspect that all sweetcorn is hybrid.

But it shouldn't stop anyone having a go. You never know what you'll
get!

David
--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
Farm1 wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
Alan Holmes wrote:
"K" wrote in message
...
[...]
Why do you want non-hybrid sweetcorn?

So I can save the seed and get the same variety for the next
year!

I don't think it would work; as I mentioned before, I think all
sweet
corn, like all our cereals, is the product of hybridisation.

I don't think this is universally right Mike. I know that some of
the
old forms of sweet corn can still be bought (at least in Oz) but I
don't know how they'd go in a cooler UK growing season (although
given
that many UK gardeners seem to have access to tunnel houses etc,
then
that should help it grow. The firm mentioned below has a range of
corn including Bali and Anasasi corn
http://www.edenseeds.com.au/content/main.html

When I said "hybridisation", I didn't mean recently: as far as I
knew,
the recognisable ancestor arose in prehistoric times, and there
wasn't
a true species in the wild.

OK, with you now and I agree with you in terms of anciently occurring
hybridisation. However, in terms of the OPs question, I do think that
it must still be possible for him/her to get sweet corn plants which
will come true from seed even if he'/she has to source the seed
outside of the UK. The one's for which I gave the cite are from
societies which had to have plants that bred true from seed.

In the absence of our botanist, Stewart
Robert Hinsley, I've Ggld up a scientific article, which shows I'm
wrong, but partly right!

http://sciencecareerst.sciencemag.or.../previous_issu
es/articles/3290/ancestors_of_science_prehistoric_gm_corn
or
http://tinyurl.com/trxog

It's very interesting if you like that kind of thing:

The articles were interesting but I must admit to a certain degree of
eye glazing as I read them :-))

In any case, the big objection to the plan is Nick's, reinforced by
you: the virtual impossibility of ripening seed in the British
climate.

I didn't mean it to sound like it wasn't possible to produce corn in
Britain that wouldn't be vialbe (given the right parent plant). I
thought rather the reverse. Given the talents of Brit gardeners and
the resource of a decent sized tunnel or green house then I though
that it should be possible. It'd probably require growing the corn in
a block and hand pollinating by shaking the silks together but the
heat provided by the housing should be enough if it was a sunny as
opposed to an overcast summer.

In article ,
PB writes:
| Mike Lyle wrote:
|
| In any case, the big objection to the plan is Nick's, reinforced by
| you: the virtual impossibility of ripening seed in the British climate.
|
| Round here in Lincolnshire there are huge stands of maize, used as a
| cover crop for game birds, I imagine at some time the corn would have
| been at an eatable state, its now mostly hard as nails. The cobs are
| full of dark yellow kernels.

Well, maybe. How easy are they to break with a hammer? Seriously.
Fully ripe, dry kernels are quite hard to break.

More seriously, I don't know how ripe they have to be to be viable,
but there is a LOT of ripening that happens after the yellow varieties
have gone dark, and hardness is more a matter of drying then ripening.

To David Rance, what I said was "In some years, maybe - in others, no
chance." The problem with seed saving of marginal crops always has
been the bad years.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow contains these words:



I didn't mean it to sound like it wasn't possible to produce corn in
Britain that wouldn't be vialbe (given the right parent plant). I
thought rather the reverse. Given the talents of Brit gardeners and
the resource of a decent sized tunnel or green house then I though
that it should be possible. It'd probably require growing the corn in
a block and hand pollinating by shaking the silks together but the
heat provided by the housing should be enough if it was a sunny as
opposed to an overcast summer.

Sorry Fran, looks like your server missed some vital posts earlier in
the thread.

It is fairly easy to crop sweetcorn in the UK, outdoors in the open,
but variety and timing is crucial. Once it's transplanted outside
(usually June), no protection or hand pollination is necessary though I
do always grow it in blocks (for wind pollination). We just ate the last
of ours last week.

Because Britain is so far north, I can only grow varieties specially
bred to produce a crop in corn's relatively short growing season at UK
latitudes and lightlevels. Usually labelled something like "90 day" or
"Northern".

Janet

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
from "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow contains these words:

I didn't mean it to sound like it wasn't possible to produce corn
in
Britain that wouldn't be vialbe (given the right parent plant). I
thought rather the reverse. Given the talents of Brit gardeners
and
the resource of a decent sized tunnel or green house then I though
that it should be possible. It'd probably require growing the
corn in
a block and hand pollinating by shaking the silks together but the
heat provided by the housing should be enough if it was a sunny as
opposed to an overcast summer.

Sorry Fran, looks like your server missed some vital posts
earlier in
the thread.

It is fairly easy to crop sweetcorn in the UK, outdoors in the
open,
but variety and timing is crucial. Once it's transplanted outside
(usually June), no protection or hand pollination is necessary
though I
do always grow it in blocks (for wind pollination). We just ate the
last
of ours last week.

Because Britain is so far north, I can only grow varieties
specially
bred to produce a crop in corn's relatively short growing season at
UK
latitudes and lightlevels. Usually labelled something like "90 day"
or
"Northern".

I must be missing something here but I understood that the question
orignally asked was about growing corn which, as specified in the
subject line, was non-hybrid??????

I've been back to the earlier posts and also to google groups and I
still have the same understanding - non-hybrid was defintitely what
was specificied by Alan Holmes and also restated as being able to
"save the seed and get the same variety for the next year".

I know you've grown sweetcorn successfully but you wrote of growing a
short summer hybrid variety which wasn't what Alan asked about.

To grow non-hybrid corn successfully, I think that more heat would be
required than to grow the hybrid sort of corn that you said you've
grown (and perhaps more light too as you mention but that wouldn't be
known till attempted) .

I wouldn't expect that Alan who wants non-hybrid corn seed would find
it easy to get in the UK (and I use the non-hybrid term loosely as I
agree with Mike Lyle who wrote that all corn/maize had evolved from
the wild form eons ago).

However, having said that, the Anasazi and Bali sweet corns which I
mentioned and gave a site for, are both ones which would fit the bill
for being as close to non-hybrid as it's probably possible to get
these days. And, as both come from much hotter climes than those of
the UK then I think that it would need the sort of heat such as found
in either a greenhouse or tunnel house.

BTW, the Anasazi corn only has a one that has a 81-90 day maturity
rate http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/49737/index.html . Both vaieties I
mentioned come from more basic societies where seedsaving is still (or
was at the time seedsaving societies arrived on the scene) common.

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message

And, as both come from much hotter climes than those of
the UK then I think that it would need the sort of heat such as
found
in either a greenhouse or tunnel house.

I knew that something had been nagging at the back of my brain and I
couldn't drag it to the fore. It finally came into my head to wake me
up at some unearthly hour of the morning.

There was also another reason why I was thinking about the
tunnel/greenhouse and it was to do with crossbreeding. Corn needs
something like 500 metres from other corn or good natural barriers to
stop it from cross breeding.

Alan if you are still interested, I've looked up my "Seed Savers
Handbook" and there is a lot of information in there for someone who
wants to save seed from but I'm not prepared to type it out unless you
are still interested. If you'd like the info let me know and I'll
type it out in full for you.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 Nick Maclaren wrote:

To David Rance, what I said was "In some years, maybe - in others, no
chance." The problem with seed saving of marginal crops always has
been the bad years.

You're probably right.

However I do think that our climate is improving to the point where
maize/sweetcorn is becoming less marginal. For instance, in France more
than ten years ago I saw maize growing only south of Poitiers. For the
last ten years or so maize has become a regular crop in Normandy - acres
of the stuff! I would guess that around the Suisse Normande (where I
live) it is the most common arable crop. They leave it on the fields
until the plants are completely dry and withered. Every year. I'm sure
David in Normandy will confirm that. There seem to be two main crops in
Northern France now, oil seed rape and maize. You don't see wheat like
you used in Normandy. It's probably still grown in the Beauce - well,
they have to grow wheat somewhere to feed the boulangeries!

I have seen maize growing from time to time in Southern England but not
round here (Reading). I don't know why it doesn't catch on here. Maybe
the EU doesn't give us the incentives.

But what I'm saying is that in Southern England now, more often than
not, maize seed *can* be ripened whereas, say, thirty years ago it
wasn't easy to grow at all let alone ripen. I can still remember my
father's rather pathetic efforts!

And, looking at my own crop this year, I think that this would be a good
year to ripen the seed.

David

--
David Rance http://www.mesnil.demon.co.uk
Fido Address: 2:252/110 writing from Caversham, Reading, UK

"David Rance" wrote in message
last ten years or so maize has become a regular crop in Normandy - acres
of the stuff! I would guess that around the Suisse Normande (where I live)
it is the most common arable crop. They leave it on the fields until the
plants are completely dry and withered. Every year. I'm sure David in
Normandy will confirm that. There seem to be two main crops in

Yes, we are surrounded with the stuff, acre upon acre. It is difficult to
see over seven feet high crops and thankfully the farmer harvested that in a
field adjacent to our garden yesterday, so we've got our view of the other
side of the valley back again now :-)
--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk
.... Blog at http://dlts-french-adventures.blogspot.com/

Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow contains these words:


Well, the only one I've seen for sale here is the Anasazi; sold here
as an "ornamental" corn. AFAIK, other than the colourful looks, that's
because it's a hard kernel, like maize, and its heritage past was a
grinding-corn to make flour/porridge (which I can't see Alan H doing
:-) . So, I'm surprised to see the Aus site suggests it for eating
fresh.

Can't find anything about the Bali corn, do you know if it was a
grinding/flour one?

Stock-feed (hard) maize is farmed as an agricultural crop in England
btw, but you'd have to be truly desperate to eat it; it;s tough and the
starches don't turn to sugar in the same way as (ripe) sweetcorn.

Janet.

I have eaten it and it's not too bad, it wasnt tough but it did take a
lot of time to cook, about twice as long as usual. I like better the
shop ones but these are expensive

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
from "Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow contains these words:

I must be missing something here but I understood that the
question
orignally asked was about growing corn which, as specified in the
subject line, was non-hybrid??????

Yebbut, sweetcorn (to eat on the cob), not maize corn (to kibble,
or
grind flour).

All corn/maize can be eaten if it is young enough. The problem with
most corns is that they are often eaten too old.

The problem for Alan is in getting any old enough variety of
corn/maize that will come true from saved seed (and there is another
but I'll mention it later). If he's still interested (and he's
probably been scarred off by now :-)) then he would be best to look
for heritage varieties in the US where there is a very active seed
savers groups and I know that heritage corn is one of the things that
they've been saving..

I've been back to the earlier posts and also to google groups and
I
still have the same understanding - non-hybrid was defintitely
what
was specificied by Alan Holmes

Yes

I know you've grown sweetcorn successfully but you wrote of
growing a
short summer hybrid variety which wasn't what Alan asked about.


However, having said that, the Anasazi and Bali sweet corns which
I
mentioned and gave a site for, are both ones which would fit the
bill
for being as close to non-hybrid as it's probably possible to get
these days. And, as both come from much hotter climes than those
of
the UK then I think that it would need the sort of heat such as
found
in either a greenhouse or tunnel house.

BTW, the Anasazi corn only has a one that has a 81-90 day maturity
rate http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/49737/index.html . Both
vaieties I
mentioned come from more basic societies where seedsaving is still
(or
was at the time seedsaving societies arrived on the scene) common.

Well, the only one I've seen for sale here is the Anasazi; sold
here
as an "ornamental" corn. AFAIK, other than the colourful looks,
that's
because it's a hard kernel, like maize, and its heritage past was a
grinding-corn to make flour/porridge (which I can't see Alan H
doing
:-) . So, I'm surprised to see the Aus site suggests it for eating
fresh.

It only becomes an "ornamental" corn when it's very mature. Like all
corn, when it's young and milky, it can still be eaten. Sweetcorn
seed when fully mature/dried is much more shrivelled that the other
varieties of corn, the dent, flint, flour and pop corns. It can be
eaten when at the milky yellow stage (and I think the site I gave
mentioned that but I'm feeling too idle at the moment to go back to
check).

Can't find anything about the Bali corn, do you know if it was a
grinding/flour one?

Haven't a clue.

Stock-feed (hard) maize is farmed as an agricultural crop in
England
btw, but you'd have to be truly desperate to eat it; it;s tough and
the
starches don't turn to sugar in the same way as (ripe) sweetcorn.

The stuff we know now as sweetcorn is a relatively new beastie in the
corn world. The sweetcorn of even a hundred years ago was far less
"sweet" so even if Alan finds a true from seed variety of heritage
corn, he may not think it's up to much because it won't be like modern
day sweetcorn.

Farm1 wrote:
All corn/maize can be eaten if it is young enough. The problem with
most corns is that they are often eaten too old.

What do you mean? Do you mean one would buy it and forget about it or
the 'sweet yellow corn' we all know about is old when on sale?

I've once bought a variegated bunch of corns, for display in my
kitchen. I thought at first I could perhaps try to grow it but realised
it had been coated, for preservation I suspect. I wonder why we do not
eat all the incredible varieties of corn that there is in America,
notably the variegated one and hundreds more which are so so much more
beautfiful and appetizing than a yellow one and which have amazing
names.

"La Puce" wrote in message
ups.com...

Farm1 wrote:
All corn/maize can be eaten if it is young enough. The problem
with
most corns is that they are often eaten too old.

What do you mean? Do you mean one would buy it and forget about it
or
the 'sweet yellow corn' we all know about is old when on sale?

It would be very rare to find a sweetcorn that isn't too old when
sold. Still edible but barely IMHO.

Earlier in the thread, an American wrote about how if you picked the
cob and then fell over on the way to the kitchen to throw out the cobs
and pick more. Although it's was a joke, it's fairly accurate.

I've once bought a variegated bunch of corns, for display in my
kitchen. I thought at first I could perhaps try to grow it but
realised
it had been coated, for preservation I suspect. I wonder why we do
not
eat all the incredible varieties of corn that there is in America,
notably the variegated one and hundreds more which are so so much
more
beautfiful and appetizing than a yellow one and which have amazing
names.

Probably for the reasons Janet and others have outlined. Britian can
be uncertain for heat conditions for a long enough growing season and
light levels may be too low for other than locally bred seed. And
that stinking humidity of the south of England may also be a factor -
corn grows best in hot dry climates. Mind you, if the Bali corn I
mentioned is truly from Bali, then it would cope with humidity.

Farm1 wrote:
Probably for the reasons Janet and others have outlined. Britian can
be uncertain for heat conditions for a long enough growing season and
light levels may be too low for other than locally bred seed. And
that stinking humidity of the south of England may also be a factor -
corn grows best in hot dry climates. Mind you, if the Bali corn I
mentioned is truly from Bali, then it would cope with humidity.

True. But I also think its a germination time, the 90 days season Janet
mention is quite short compared to the american corn I'd like to grow
with is 120 days!