On 29/5/08 19:23, in article
, "beamer"
wrote:

On 28 May, 23:56, Martin wrote:
On 28 May 2008 19:59:50 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:



In article ,
Martin writes:
| On Wed, 28 May 2008 11:44:06 +0100, "Draven"
wrote:
|
| If you think cats are a *problem wait 'till you encounter the
devastation
| caused by rabbits. ;O)
|
| Not to mention that ferret that got up your trouser leg.

Well, if you WILL keep rabbits up there!

It was the moles.
--

Martin

Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??

"indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"

Certain small areas may have a problem but most areas? I live in the
middle of suburbia and I haven't seen a cat (or dog) in months!


I expect the foxes got them.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
'We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our
children.'

"BAC" wrote in message
...


I agree it is not unreasonable to suppose that the cat population density
in the urban UK is artificially high, nor to believe that this may have a
significant effect on urban ecosystems. I'm not so sure this amounts to
being 'over-run' with the pesky things, though.


Certainly in the rural situation, the size of the " garden birds "
population is adversely directly affected by the size of the cat population.

Cats free roaming should be treated as dogs free roaming, captured and
redomesticated.

Regards
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com

The RSPB estimates the four-legged assassins kill five
million birds and 220 million other animals every year in
Britain.

"Research shows cats will roam up to a kilometre from
their home," says Rob Cameron of English Nature. "They
can do enormous damage to wildlife."

And there are about 10 million pet cats. Double the
number of 20 years ago.
One startling piece of research found there were 226 cats
per square kilometre in Bristol. That's a truly
astonishing number of cats prowling our gardens killing
small animals for fun, using our flowerbeds as public
conveniences and shrieking outside our windows at ungodly
hours.

Dog owners must abide by a welter of legislation forcing
them to control their pets. And quite right to. If your
dog bites someone it will more than likely be put down.
If you let it roam the streets you can end up in court.
Persistent barking means welcome to Asbo land. And not
clearing up dog mess is slowly — through the use of fines
and better education —– becoming completely unacceptable.
But none of this applies to cat owners who simply buy
their cute-looking ball of fluff, knock a hole in the
back door and away they go. The perfect obese society
pet. No need for walks. It comes and goes as it pleases
and even has its own door to the house.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatControl/

"Mikesndbs" wrote in message
...
The RSPB estimates the four-legged assassins kill five
million birds and 220 million other animals every year in
Britain.

Does the RSPB use the term 'four legged assassins'? If so, that might
suggest a prejudiced attitude, which might have coloured their
interpretation of the data on which their estimate was based.

"Research shows cats will roam up to a kilometre from
their home," says Rob Cameron of English Nature. "They
can do enormous damage to wildlife."

Virtually all human activities, including gardening, introduce changes into
the 'original' ecosystems, and the consequences of those changes are often
'unfortunate' (or damaging) for other inhabitants of the ecosystem
(wildlife).

And there are about 10 million pet cats. Double the
number of 20 years ago.
One startling piece of research found there were 226 cats
per square kilometre in Bristol. That's a truly
astonishing number of cats prowling our gardens killing
small animals for fun, using our flowerbeds as public
conveniences and shrieking outside our windows at ungodly
hours.

Well, I don't like cats, either, but there's no need IMO to demonise the
blighters by awarding them some sort of biblical plague status.

In article ,
Martin writes:
|
| Like most cats, our cat has probably killed hundreds times more vermin than he
| has killed birds.
|
| I take it the 220 million other animals are mainly vermin? I don't see reports
| of fields full of dead sheep that have been "worried" by cats.

There are clear vermin, and others. Most cats kill far more shrews,
voles, field mice and even moles and weasels than house mice, let
alone rats.

I am sad that I haven't seen a vole or shrew in my garden for 20
years - and that is almost due to the increase in the number of
local cats. Also, cats probably prevent owls from recovering, and
possibly some of the smaller hawks, by keeping prey numbers too low
for those birds. I have even heard that weasels are now becoming
quite rare in most of the heavily populated parts of the UK!

The knock-on effects are serious, too. The lack of hawks mean that
there is nothing to control the collared doves and pigeons - cats
fatch a few, but not enough to affect them. And it is even possible
that the cat population is one of the CAUSES of the increasing urban
and suburban rat problem, by competing with (and occasionally killing)
stoats (and, of course, killing weasels, which can kill young rats in
their runs).

Note that it is almost impossible for a predator to exterminate its
prey species, UNLESS it is being provided with artificial food.
When the prey become scarce, the predator starts to starve, can't
hunt effectively, and its numbers drop. If, however, it is well
fed by humans, it can carry on until the prey is extinct.



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On May 30, 10:06*am, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
In article ,Marti n writes:

|
| Like most cats, our cat has probably killed hundreds times more vermin than he
| has killed birds.
|
| I take it the 220 million other animals are mainly vermin? I don't see reports
| of fields full of dead sheep that have been "worried" by cats.

There are clear vermin, and others. *Most cats kill far more shrews,
voles, field mice and even moles and weasels than house mice, let
alone rats.

I am sad that I haven't seen a vole or shrew in my garden for 20
years - and that is almost due to the increase in the number of
local cats. *Also, cats probably prevent owls from recovering, and
possibly some of the smaller hawks, by keeping prey numbers too low
for those birds. *I have even heard that weasels are now becoming
quite rare in most of the heavily populated parts of the UK!

The knock-on effects are serious, too. *The lack of hawks mean that
there is nothing to control the collared doves and pigeons - cats
fatch a few, but not enough to affect them. *And it is even possible
that the cat population is one of the CAUSES of the increasing urban
and suburban rat problem, by competing with (and occasionally killing)
stoats (and, of course, killing weasels, which can kill young rats in
their runs).

Note that it is almost impossible for a predator to exterminate its
prey species, UNLESS it is being provided with artificial food.
When the prey become scarce, the predator starts to starve, can't
hunt effectively, and its numbers drop. *If, however, it is well
fed by humans, it can carry on until the prey is extinct.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Excellent points Nick!

In article ,
Martin writes:
|
| Note that it is almost impossible for a predator to exterminate its
| prey species, UNLESS it is being provided with artificial food.
| When the prey become scarce, the predator starts to starve, can't
| hunt effectively, and its numbers drop. If, however, it is well
| fed by humans, it can carry on until the prey is extinct.
|
| The fox population that hasn't been hunted here for at least a decade is limited
| by disease. There has been a population explosion of cormorants initiated by
| placing a wet land nature reserve adjacent to a national fish breeding place.
| The fish breeding place has since closed.

I don't see the relevance of those examples to my point, and the case
of cats.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...


There are clear vermin, and others. Most cats kill far more shrews,
voles, field mice and even moles and weasels than house mice, let
alone rats.

I am sad that I haven't seen a vole or shrew in my garden for 20
years - and that is almost due to the increase in the number of
local cats. Also, cats probably prevent owls from recovering, and
possibly some of the smaller hawks, by keeping prey numbers too low
for those birds. I have even heard that weasels are now becoming
quite rare in most of the heavily populated parts of the UK!

The knock-on effects are serious, too. The lack of hawks mean that
there is nothing to control the collared doves and pigeons - cats
fatch a few, but not enough to affect them. And it is even possible
that the cat population is one of the CAUSES of the increasing urban
and suburban rat problem, by competing with (and occasionally killing)
stoats (and, of course, killing weasels, which can kill young rats in
their runs).

Note that it is almost impossible for a predator to exterminate its
prey species, UNLESS it is being provided with artificial food.
When the prey become scarce, the predator starts to starve, can't
hunt effectively, and its numbers drop. If, however, it is well
fed by humans, it can carry on until the prey is extinct.



True.
By law all cats should have to be fitted with collar with a loud sensitive
bell attached to warn its potential victims.
I think many birds etc.would survive that otherwise would not.
They would also by law have to be chipped so that the owners who did not
comply with law one could be identified.

Regards
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com

"Pete Stockdale" wrote in message
...

snip



True.
By law all cats should have to be fitted with collar with a loud
sensitive
bell attached to warn its potential victims.
I think many birds etc.would survive that otherwise would not.
They would also by law have to be chipped so that the owners who did not
comply with law one could be identified.


I wonder what proportion of the people who would wilfully ignore a legal
requirement to bell their cats would comply with a requirement to have them
chipped?

"Mikesndbs" wrote in message
...

The knock-on effects are serious, too. The lack of hawks mean that
there is nothing to control the collared doves and pigeons - cats
fatch a few, but not enough to affect them. And it is even possible
that the cat population is one of the CAUSES of the increasing urban
and suburban rat problem, by competing with (and occasionally killing)
stoats (and, of course, killing weasels, which can kill young rats in
their runs).

What's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?

Mary

In article ,
"Mary Fisher" writes:
|
| What's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?

Er, let's get this right. This is uk.rec.gardening, a gardening
newsgroup. You have been posting here for some time, have shown
evidence of being a gardener, and no evidence of being a troll's
sock puppet.

And you are asking what the problem is with collared doves and
pigeons?

One of us has lost contact with reality ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Mikesndbs" wrote in message
...

The knock-on effects are serious, too. The lack of hawks mean that
there is nothing to control the collared doves and pigeons - cats
fatch a few, but not enough to affect them. And it is even possible
that the cat population is one of the CAUSES of the increasing urban
and suburban rat problem, by competing with (and occasionally killing)
stoats (and, of course, killing weasels, which can kill young rats in
their runs).

What's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?


Pigeons (meaning feral pigeons in urban areas) are regarded as pests by many
people, mainly because of the fouling problem associated with large
concentrations of them. I'm not sure that presence of hawks = absence of
pigeons, however, having recently been observing peregrines and (many more)
pigeons nesting on the same building. Pigeons are prolific breeders, and
their population is probably limited by availability of food, rather than
presence or absence of avian predators.

I don't know of a particular problem with collared doves, except they, too,
are very successful and have therefore are treated as similar pests to feral
pigeons since the 1980s. Ironic, perhaps, that a boy was fined for shooting
one in East Lothian in 1963.

Turtle Doves and Stock Doves are not classified as pest species, probably
because they are rare.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Mary Fisher" writes:
|
| What's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?

Er, let's get this right. This is uk.rec.gardening, a gardening
newsgroup. You have been posting here for some time, have shown
evidence of being a gardener, and no evidence of being a troll's
sock puppet.

And you are asking what the problem is with collared doves and
pigeons?

One of us has lost contact with reality ....

I don't know which one, we have collar doves and woodpigeons, they nest in a
large tree in the corner. Rock doves also come into the garden occasionally.
They come into another part of our small garden (of course - they eat the
hen food) but they don't go to other parts and they've not been a problem.
Spouse thinks their raiding the hens' feeders is a problem but because I
like to see them I don't mind.,

He doesn't think that the dunnocks, who also raid the feeders, are a problem
because he likes to see them :-)

We put out wild bird food for other birds too ... they're not a problem.
Even the odd sparrow hawk is only a problem to small birds, they delight us
with their appearance.

So I repeat, what's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?

Mary

In article ,
"Mary Fisher" writes:
|
| So I repeat, what's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?

The first two of these reasons are a FRM (Frequently Repeated Moan).

In most areas, they are THE major pest of brassicas and some other
crops, and are the main reason that many farmers use those explosive
machines that cause bangs from dawn to dusk and are audible for
miles around.

In many areas, they make it impossible for people to grow even
things like peas without netting them (I can't), and have caused
many farmers to give up such crops. That is one reason that an
increasing amount of such foods is imported.

They have been accused of being a cause of the demise of smaller
bird species (like sparrows), but I will let the twitchers argue
that one.

In most parts of the UK, they have no significant predators except
man, because terrestrial ones are no threat, we have no arboreal
ones except pine martens, and wood pigeons are too large for most
hawks.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Mary Fisher" writes:
|
| What's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?

Er, let's get this right. This is uk.rec.gardening, a gardening
newsgroup. You have been posting here for some time, have shown
evidence of being a gardener, and no evidence of being a troll's
sock puppet.

And you are asking what the problem is with collared doves and
pigeons?

One of us has lost contact with reality ....

I don't know which one, we have collar doves and woodpigeons, they nest in
a large tree in the corner. Rock doves also come into the garden
occasionally. They come into another part of our small garden (of course -
they eat the hen food) but they don't go to other parts and they've not
been a problem. Spouse thinks their raiding the hens' feeders is a problem
but because I like to see them I don't mind.,

He doesn't think that the dunnocks, who also raid the feeders, are a
problem because he likes to see them :-)

We put out wild bird food for other birds too ... they're not a problem.
Even the odd sparrow hawk is only a problem to small birds, they delight
us with their appearance.

So I repeat, what's the problem with collar doves and pigeons?




Th collar doves spend all day annoyingly coocoocooing
and the pidgens can destroy a row of newly sown seed in minutes.
Apart from that they are just lovable Gods creatures !

Regards
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com