Dear group

I have started a Yahoo group to discuss this growing problem in a
sensible and balanced way.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatControl/

If you are troubled by the growing number of domestic cats or have
successfully driven them from your garden then you may like to join.

This will be a well run and moderated group.

No extreme views or ideas, nothing that seeks to do harm to any animal
will be tolerated.

Its a indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with
cats.
Society has changed so that other pets have fallen from favour.
Most guilty cat owners feel the need to have two cats to act as
'company' for each other.
We are all forced to live in less and less space, the wild habitats
are being lost meaning that an unfair burden is being placed on
private gardens.
Natural predators are visiting gardens now as their proper hunting
area has been lost!
Wild life is suffering, cats mess and destruction is a serious
nuisance to some of us.

And why should we have to put up with someones else's animal on our
property especially if its causing distress and nuisance.

There is a bewildering number of methods to defend your space.

It is my hope that we can help each other with the best 'legal'
methods.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Please note I will not respond to this thread.

Mike

Sussex UK

--
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2683436/
"Mikesndbs" wrote in message
...
Dear group

I have started a Yahoo group to discuss this growing problem in a
sensible and balanced way.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatControl/

If you are troubled by the growing number of domestic cats or have
successfully driven them from your garden then you may like to join.

This will be a well run and moderated group.

No extreme views or ideas, nothing that seeks to do harm to any animal
will be tolerated.

Its a indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with
cats.
Society has changed so that other pets have fallen from favour.
Most guilty cat owners feel the need to have two cats to act as
'company' for each other.
We are all forced to live in less and less space, the wild habitats
are being lost meaning that an unfair burden is being placed on
private gardens.
Natural predators are visiting gardens now as their proper hunting
area has been lost!
Wild life is suffering, cats mess and destruction is a serious
nuisance to some of us.

And why should we have to put up with someones else's animal on our
property especially if its causing distress and nuisance.

There is a bewildering number of methods to defend your space.

It is my hope that we can help each other with the best 'legal'
methods.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Please note I will not respond to this thread.

Mike

Sussex UK

If you think cats are a problem wait 'till you encounter the devastation
caused by rabbits. ;O)

In article ,
Martin writes:
| On Wed, 28 May 2008 11:44:06 +0100, "Draven" wrote:
|
| If you think cats are a problem wait 'till you encounter the devastation
| caused by rabbits. ;O)
|
| Not to mention that ferret that got up your trouser leg.

Well, if you WILL keep rabbits up there!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 28 May, 23:56, Martin wrote:
On 28 May 2008 19:59:50 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:



In article ,
Martin writes:
| On Wed, 28 May 2008 11:44:06 +0100, "Draven" wrote:
|
| If you think cats are a *problem wait 'till you encounter the devastation
| caused by rabbits. ;O)
|
| Not to mention that ferret that got up your trouser leg.

Well, if you WILL keep rabbits up there!

It was the moles.
--

Martin

Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??

"indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"

Certain small areas may have a problem but most areas? I live in the
middle of suburbia and I haven't seen a cat (or dog) in months!

In article ,
beamer writes:
|
| Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??
|
| "indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"
|
| Certain small areas may have a problem but most areas? I live in the
| middle of suburbia and I haven't seen a cat (or dog) in months!

Actually, that bit's right - though it's primarily suburbia (including
most so-called villages). Few such places are outside the territory
of a cat, which causes major havoc to the ecology.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 29 May, 19:35, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
In article ,beamer writes:

|
| Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??
|
| "indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"
|
| Certain small areas may have a problem but most areas? I live in the
| middle of suburbia and I haven't seen a cat (or dog) in months!

Actually, that bit's right - though it's primarily suburbia (including
most so-called villages). *Few such places are outside the territory
of a cat, which causes major havoc to the ecology.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I'm not a cat lover or a keeper and I don't doubt cats do affect the
ecology.

Some areas probably do have a bad problem but to say *most* suburban
areas are *over run* is a wild exaggeration.

Of course, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if there is evidence
from reputable reports/studies.

"beamer" wrote in message
...
On 28 May, 23:56, Martin wrote:
On 28 May 2008 19:59:50 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:



In article ,
Martin writes:
| On Wed, 28 May 2008 11:44:06 +0100, "Draven"
wrote:
|
| If you think cats are a problem wait 'till you encounter the
devastation
| caused by rabbits. ;O)
|
| Not to mention that ferret that got up your trouser leg.

Well, if you WILL keep rabbits up there!

It was the moles.
--

Martin

Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??

"indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"

Not annoying, but it is difficult to see how a subjective judgement
concerning the population density of cats can be elevated to 'indisputable
fact' status.

"beamer" wrote in message
...
On 29 May, 19:35, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:
In article
,beamer
writes:

|
| Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??
|
| "indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"
|
| Certain small areas may have a problem but most areas? I live in the
| middle of suburbia and I haven't seen a cat (or dog) in months!

Actually, that bit's right - though it's primarily suburbia (including
most so-called villages). Few such places are outside the territory
of a cat, which causes major havoc to the ecology.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I'm not a cat lover or a keeper and I don't doubt cats do affect the
ecology.

Some areas probably do have a bad problem but to say *most* suburban
areas are *over run* is a wild exaggeration.

Of course, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if there is evidence
from reputable reports/studies.

Ah, but 'indisputable facts' are usually 'self evident', hence no proof is
required :-)

In article ,
beamer writes:
|
| I'm not a cat lover or a keeper and I don't doubt cats do affect the
| ecology.
|
| Some areas probably do have a bad problem but to say *most* suburban
| areas are *over run* is a wild exaggeration.

Are you quite sure that YOUR statement isn't the wild exaggeration?
Not seeing an animal doesn't mean it's not there - think of rats!

I am old enough to remember when a significant proportion of the
south and midlands of England was outside the territory of a cat
(i.e. not visited regularly). I believe that the current proportion
is negligible, and (from the viewpoint of the survival of some small
bird and mammal species), that constitutes being over-run.

Note that I am not saying that it is the only definition - merely
that is is a justifiable one.

| Of course, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if there is evidence
| from reputable reports/studies.

There is some evidence, actually, if you look for it - fairly
mediocre evidence, but some.

But, of course, one could ask for any reputable reports/studies
supporting your position?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
"BAC" writes:
|
| Not annoying, but it is difficult to see how a subjective judgement
| concerning the population density of cats can be elevated to 'indisputable
| fact' status.

Indeed, even though there is better evidence than mere subjective
judgement out there. I fully agree that the "indisputable fact"
claim was mere polemic.

What is not true is that the fact is simply made up. For at least
some reasonable definitions of the words, the statement is almost
certainly true, and at least could have been based on fairly solid
evidence.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 29 May, 20:20, "BAC" wrote:
"beamer" wrote in message

...
On 29 May, 19:35, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:





In article
,beamer
writes:

|
| Is it just me or is it annoying when people make up facts??
|
| "indisputable fact that most areas of urban UK are over run with cats"
|
| Certain small areas may have a problem but most areas? I live in the
| middle of suburbia and I haven't seen a cat (or dog) in months!

Actually, that bit's right - though it's primarily suburbia (including
most so-called villages). Few such places are outside the territory
of a cat, which causes major havoc to the ecology.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I'm not a cat lover or a keeper and I don't doubt cats do affect the
ecology.

Some areas probably do have a bad problem but to say *most* suburban
areas are *over run* is a wild exaggeration.

Of course, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if there is evidence
from reputable reports/studies.

Ah, but 'indisputable facts' are usually 'self evident', hence no proof is
required :-)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I like a good healthy discussion

The *undisputable* fact is that I'm right and anyone that disagrees is
wrong!! LOL.

Whatever - my point was that "facts" (undisputable or otherwise) are
increasingly banded around the media (and newsgroups) without refering
to any reputable sources.

In response to Nick - having seen a rat run under my shed a few weeks
ago I could do with a few cats to sort them out! Everyone has
different opinions and yours happens to be different to mine and we
can only base these opinions on our own experiences. My experience of
the south coast (Dorset/Hampshire) suggest to me that things havent
changed all that much.

Thanks.

In article ,
beamer writes:
|
| I like a good healthy discussion
|
| The *undisputable* fact is that I'm right and anyone that disagrees is
| wrong!! LOL.

Ah. Well, that closes the discussion, then :-)

| Whatever - my point was that "facts" (undisputable or otherwise) are
| increasingly banded around the media (and newsgroups) without refering
| to any reputable sources.

Indeed. My nitpicking wasn't about the "undisputable fact" polemic
(which I ignored), but about your statement that the claim was simply
made up. It needn't have been.

| In response to Nick - having seen a rat run under my shed a few weeks
| ago I could do with a few cats to sort them out!

Most modern moggies are too wimpish for that.

| Everyone has
| different opinions and yours happens to be different to mine and we
| can only base these opinions on our own experiences. ...

Mine are based on analysis, actually. That doesn't make them right,
but it makes them a little less subjective.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"BAC" writes:
|
| Not annoying, but it is difficult to see how a subjective judgement
| concerning the population density of cats can be elevated to
'indisputable
| fact' status.

Indeed, even though there is better evidence than mere subjective
judgement out there. I fully agree that the "indisputable fact"
claim was mere polemic.

What is not true is that the fact is simply made up. For at least
some reasonable definitions of the words, the statement is almost
certainly true, and at least could have been based on fairly solid
evidence.



I agree it is not unreasonable to suppose that the cat population density in
the urban UK is artificially high, nor to believe that this may have a
significant effect on urban ecosystems. I'm not so sure this amounts to
being 'over-run' with the pesky things, though.

Ok I was asked to show some proof from a good source about the damage
recklessly owned
cats are causing.
Well just for starters have a look here and see.



Look at page 148
http://www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/jncc261.pdf

Page 21
http://www.jncc.gov.uk/pdf/bto_report321all.pdf


1.13 Regardless of the true figure, the 12,000 to 13,000 foxes
annually killed by foxhunts (L.A.C.S.), is considered to be minute by
comparison, both in terms of the number of animals assumed to ‘suffer’
from predation, and in terms of the animal welfare interests relating
to the conservation of species. Budiansky went on to discuss further
findings of Churcher and Lawton. Who concluded that "Well fed and
apparently contented cats are often ruthless killers". This is
scientifically confirmed by Barnard who observed that cats who had not
been without food are still stimulated by the trigger of animal
movement, to stalk and catch prey.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/rural/huntin...cherclubs2.htm

This is masses of data out there.
There are too many cats, sorry its a fact if you like it or not.

In article ,
"BAC" writes:
|
| I agree it is not unreasonable to suppose that the cat population density in
| the urban UK is artificially high, nor to believe that this may have a
| significant effect on urban ecosystems. I'm not so sure this amounts to
| being 'over-run' with the pesky things, though.

You have missed the point of what I was saying.

What I am saying is that it has a major (perhaps the dominant) effect
on almost the ENTIRETY of the fertile lowlands of the UK, including
all of the urban and peri-urban areas. There is no longer any refuge
for the cats' prey.

And that IS being over-run with the things!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.