Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:10:08 +0100, Janet Tweedy
wrote:

Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

Janet

As for his insurance, if he's a "professional" type he should have
public liability insurance as well as personal insurance (public
liability covering an accident which results in damage to the customer
or the customer's property). Ask to see his certificate. Simples.

But complication - if he is using the customer's ladder, the customer
could be liable if he falls off it. If he's a proper gardening
contractor type he should have his own ladders and should use them.

So ask to see his insurance certificate and tell him to use his own
ladder.

Another thing. If he's going to take away and dispose of the prunings,
ask to see his waste carrier registration certificate. If he doesn't
have one and fly-tips the prunings, then the customer, not he, will
be prosecuted if the source is discovered by the authorities.

Jake

http://www.rivendell.org.uk coming soon

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...
Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and tools)
would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you make sure
he is insured (just in case)


It's not just about insurance.

In simple terms if he injures himself he will be spending a lot of time
watching the ads on day time telly saying "We can claim for you! It could be
someone else's fault!" he may or may not feel he wants to make a claim
against you, a company may or may not take up his claim and it may or may
not come to court depending on a lot of factors, things like was he working
to your instructions, was he on your ladder, was he being paid by the hour
or by a price, did you even talk about safety or just tell him to get on
with it... I can't know all the details and possibilities.

In reality it might be sufficient just to have a conversation with him about
safety and risks and make sure you both understand that it will be his
responsibility and you aren't asking him to do anything he isn't comfortable
with. If you are really paranoid you can put it in writing. It isn't always
easy to demand to see insurance documents from tradesmen.

IANAL

Tim W

"Jake" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:10:08 +0100, Janet Tweedy
wrote:

Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

Janet

As for his insurance, if he's a "professional" type he should have
public liability insurance as well as personal insurance (public
liability covering an accident which results in damage to the customer
or the customer's property). Ask to see his certificate. Simples.

But complication - if he is using the customer's ladder, the customer
could be liable if he falls off it. If he's a proper gardening
contractor type he should have his own ladders and should use them.

So ask to see his insurance certificate and tell him to use his own
ladder.

Another thing. If he's going to take away and dispose of the prunings,
ask to see his waste carrier registration certificate. If he doesn't
have one and fly-tips the prunings, then the customer, not he, will
be prosecuted if the source is discovered by the authorities.


Wrong.

Both "could" be prosecuted in accordance with the control of pollution act
19??, but in practice, the householder could easily claim ignorance[1], or
that he/she was told by the gardener that he was licenced etc. In the hugely
unlikely event of him being caught in the act of fly tipping the unlicensed
carrier could be fined{2}and have his vehicle confiscated.

Steve
(former registered waste carrier.)

[1] Yes, I know ignorance is no defence in law, but in the real world can
you see the waste regulation authority taking an elderly lady to court
because someone tipped her cuttings? Me neither.
( Don't tell me it's happened unless you provide a link).

[2] The fine was £2000 last I heard, almost certainly much more now.

Janet Tweedy wrote:
Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

Janet
The first and prime rule of insurance companies is:
If I can get out of paying I will.
So your friend needs to be very careful. I want insurance for new
hearing aids I have just acquired, just loss and accidental damage. When
I closely looked at the small print it stated that I was not covered if
the guarantee is still in force. Go figure, the guarantee only covers
faults. What has that to do with loss or accidental damage? As the
guarantee is for five years that would make the insurance useless!

On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:19:46 +0100, "shazzbat"
wrote:


"Jake" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:10:08 +0100, Janet Tweedy
wrote:

Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

Janet

As for his insurance, if he's a "professional" type he should have
public liability insurance as well as personal insurance (public
liability covering an accident which results in damage to the customer
or the customer's property). Ask to see his certificate. Simples.

But complication - if he is using the customer's ladder, the customer
could be liable if he falls off it. If he's a proper gardening
contractor type he should have his own ladders and should use them.

So ask to see his insurance certificate and tell him to use his own
ladder.

Another thing. If he's going to take away and dispose of the prunings,
ask to see his waste carrier registration certificate. If he doesn't
have one and fly-tips the prunings, then the customer, not he, will
be prosecuted if the source is discovered by the authorities.


Wrong.

Both "could" be prosecuted in accordance with the control of pollution act
19??, but in practice, the householder could easily claim ignorance[1], or
that he/she was told by the gardener that he was licenced etc. In the hugely
unlikely event of him being caught in the act of fly tipping the unlicensed
carrier could be fined{2}and have his vehicle confiscated.

Steve
(former registered waste carrier.)

[1] Yes, I know ignorance is no defence in law, but in the real world can
you see the waste regulation authority taking an elderly lady to court
because someone tipped her cuttings? Me neither.
( Don't tell me it's happened unless you provide a link).

[2] The fine was £2000 last I heard, almost certainly much more now.

Granted Steve, you are right but the dumper is very rarely caught and
here in South Wales (where the authorities routinely "enforce" and
"ignorance" is absolubtely no defence) they look for the extra rubbish
that the "innocent" person has asked the dumper to get rid of at the
same time. I can remember one case of a council chap finding a carrier
bag in the middle of some prunings and almost gleefully producing an
addressed envelope. I don't know the details but he told me later that
the culprit had admitted having their hedge lopped by someone and had
forked out over £1,000 as a result. The majority of cases don't get to
court as the penalties increase (potentially unlimited in the higher
courts) so people pay up.

I was personally involved in a case of dumping on private ground where
the lady who had paid someone to remove her waste was given the option
of paying my client's costs for the proper removal and disposal of the
dumped waste or being taken to court. She took the former option but
still paid well over £1,500 at the end of the process.

Can't speak for the world but the officers I know around here say
these days it's rarely pensioners - they're now so alert to all the
dangers of doorstep trading. The usual "culprits" are in their 30s/40s
and should know better.

And in the real world, when wheelie bins are micro-chipped and
pensioners and disabled people are issued with penalty notices by
councils for putting their rubbish out too early (because the person
who helped them couldn't come round later), do you really think that
the jobsworths will care one hoot about how old someone is? If they
can get a successful prosecution they'll go for it. They advertise it
as a "zero tolerance approach to crime" and so get public support.

Cheers
Jake

http://www.rivendell.org.uk coming soon

In article ,
says...

Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

IF he is insured, I would be very surprised if his insurer permitted
him to use clients high-risk tools. They would insist on him using his
own ladders and tools so there is no conflict of responsibility if it
breaks/causes an accident.

It's unlikely that your friend's domestic insurance, covers paid
employees. For instance,paid home helps and home carers are not
allowed to use clients stepladders in the clients home or garden because
the clients home insurance doesn't cover them.

The way to check if a prospective paid employee is insured is to ask
to see his cover note. I always do when I pay anyone to do roof work or
use a chainsaw. Genuine insured professionals will be very used to this
and happily produce it.

Janet

In article umH4o.2$5z7.1@hurricane,
says...

t isn't always
easy to demand to see insurance documents from tradesmen.

I've never found that and I always ask.In my experience, any
professionals who use ladders or chainsaws etc, are well used to
requests to show their insurance cover certificate (at fair notice) and
very happy to do so because it marks them out from the cowboys.

So does owning and using their own tools and ladders.

Janet

On Jul 31, 9:12*pm, Janet wrote:
In article umH4o.2$5z7.1@hurricane,
says...

t isn't always

easy to demand to see insurance documents from tradesmen.

I've never found that and I always ask.In my experience, any *
professionals who use ladders or chainsaws etc, are well used to
requests to show their insurance cover certificate (at fair notice) and
very happy to do so because it marks them out from the cowboys.

* *So does owning and using their own tools and ladders.

* *Janet

Asking is not a problem; If it is, then there is a problem!

I used to make copies of mine to have them at the ready and with the
regular custom of larger properties I used to just supply one "for
your records".

I'm guessing that in this case, "part time" gardener has probably got
some sort of private medical insurance... not public liability. So if
asked have you insurance. "Oh, yes, of course" (-:
Either that, or he does have the insurance, but for the other half of
that "part time" bit.

On Jul 31, 3:40*pm, Jake wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:19:46 +0100, "shazzbat"



wrote:

"Jake" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 19:10:08 +0100, Janet Tweedy
wrote:

Someone I know has a part time gardener who 'says' he can pruned her
wisteria and rambling roses.

As it's high up, she asked if he was insured, which he said he was.
However in the event of an accident (he'll be using her ladder and
tools) would he be able to claim on her insurance or indeed how do you
make sure he is insured (just in case)

Janet

As for his insurance, if he's a "professional" type he should have
public liability insurance as well as personal insurance (public
liability covering an accident which results in damage to the customer
or the customer's property). Ask to see his certificate. Simples.

But complication - if he is using the customer's ladder, the customer
could be liable if he falls off it. If he's a proper gardening
contractor type he should have his own ladders and should use them.

So ask to see his insurance certificate and tell him to use his own
ladder.

Another thing. If he's going to take away and dispose of the prunings,
ask to see his waste carrier registration certificate. If he doesn't
have one and *fly-tips the prunings, then the customer, not he, will
be prosecuted if the source is discovered by the authorities.

Wrong.

Both "could" be prosecuted in accordance with the control of pollution act
19??, but in practice, the householder could easily claim ignorance[1], or
that he/she was told by the gardener that he was licenced etc. In the hugely
unlikely event of him being caught in the act of fly tipping the unlicensed
carrier could be fined{2}and have his vehicle confiscated.

Steve
(former registered waste carrier.)

[1] Yes, I know ignorance is no defence in law, but in the real world can
you see the waste regulation authority taking an elderly lady to court
because someone tipped her cuttings? Me neither.
( Don't tell me it's happened unless you provide a link).

[2] The fine was £2000 last I heard, almost certainly much more now.

Granted Steve, you are right but the dumper is very rarely caught and
here in South Wales (where the authorities routinely "enforce" and
"ignorance" is absolubtely no defence) they look for the extra rubbish
that the "innocent" person has asked the dumper to get rid of at the
same time. I can remember one case of a council chap finding a carrier
bag in the middle of some prunings and almost gleefully producing an
addressed envelope.

Dream on!
Have you never cleared up after a hedge trim? If you had done any
decent amount of it, you'll remember that along with the trimmings
there will be bits of paper, flyers, parking tickets, newspapers,
sweet wrappings, shopping lists, letters, receipts and yes, even stray
stamped addressed envelops, therefore, "producing an addressed
envelops" provides no actual evidence and so producing it "gleefully"
is the act of a bit of an ignoramus.

I don't know the details but he told me later that
the culprit had admitted having their hedge lopped by someone and had
forked out over £1,000 as a result.

See there the point is "had admitted" ...

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:09:54 -0700 (PDT), aquachimp
wrote:



Granted Steve, you are right but the dumper is very rarely caught and
here in South Wales (where the authorities routinely "enforce" and
"ignorance" is absolubtely no defence) they look for the extra rubbish
that the "innocent" person has asked the dumper to get rid of at the
same time. I can remember one case of a council chap finding a carrier
bag in the middle of some prunings and almost gleefully producing an
addressed envelope.

Dream on!
Have you never cleared up after a hedge trim? If you had done any
decent amount of it, you'll remember that along with the trimmings
there will be bits of paper, flyers, parking tickets, newspapers,
sweet wrappings, shopping lists, letters, receipts and yes, even stray
stamped addressed envelops, therefore, "producing an addressed
envelops" provides no actual evidence and so producing it "gleefully"
is the act of a bit of an ignoramus.

I don't know the details but he told me later that
the culprit had admitted having their hedge lopped by someone and had
forked out over £1,000 as a result.

See there the point is "had admitted" ...

Yep, aquachimp. I've just finished chopping down a 3 metre x 6 metre
tall hedge (my own) and I found lots of stuff caught up in it. The
case I referred to was one where (luckily for my client) the
fly-tipping was on the council's side of the boundary. when the
Jobsworths find something with an address on it, they go there and
it's usually pretty obvious that a hedge (usually leylandii!!!!!) has
or has not been cut recently. So presumably they do "sort" the
associated rubbish. In this case there were a lot of black bags of
junk mixed in with the green stuff.

In one case, some fly-tipping on an estate I manage produced several
envelopes from a nearby address. I called at the address and, when the
houseowner confirmed that they had paid someone to remove stuff, gave
them the option of removing it from the estate or ... They removed it
and so problem solved. I prefer to try the low key approach but, at
the end of the day, why should my clients have to pay if I can
identify the source of the rubbish.

http://www.rivendell.org.uk coming soon

To avoid confusion, the case referred to in my post before aquachimp's
and the case referred to in my reply to aquachimp were different. In
the second, I was able to intervene before the enforcement authority
did.

http://www.rivendell.org.uk coming soon

On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 01:33:15 -0700 (PDT), aquachimp
wrote (in reply to Jake's
posting):


The key wording is "as part of your business ...".

Er no, the key bit concerns the exemption: you don't need to register
as a waste carrier "if to you are carrying waste that you have
produced unless its building or demolition waste."

If I were to nitpick I might say that the key words is "don't" and
maybe I'd also throw in "need to"

With the caveat that my comments relate to the Welsh situation, please
research the definition of "waste producer". In the OP's case, his
customer is the waste producer (my reference to the "customer's trees"
was intended to be lighthearted but if you want to be pendantic that's
up to you).


If you lop your own
hedge and take the prunings to your local council tip (or public
amenity site or whatever they call it), that's "domestic"

Yep. Domestic waste.

Even if carried in a trade vehicle (though the local Council insists
that you get a permit before going to the tip if you're using anything
other than a car or small trailer - don't ask about the complications
in that!!!)

and the
waste doesn't actually become waste until you chuck it in the skips at
the tip.

I should have said, I suppose, "or fly tip it on the way". Until I
chuck it in the skips, it's still mine and I can choose to return home
and compost it.

In simple terms, if you lop someone else's hedge as part of your
business then at the point you load the choppings onto your van/lorry,
it becomes waste as "ownership" has passed to you.

This is what the law assumes. The carrier then becomes responsible for
something for which the customer has no further use = waste. Unless of
course, as the carrier drives off they tip the stuff back onto the
customer's driveway.

Or if you stick it in their recyle waste bin container...
Oh, look, it must be called waste if it goes into a "waste" bin even
though "ownership" has not changed hands, least not until the waste
lorry takes it.

What's your point? The whatevers (as you seem to have issues with the
use of prunings/choppings) have, in your example, been placed in a
container provided by the customer. They thus remain the customer's
property. The customer may choose to subsequently put them in a
compost heap or whatever. As far as the law is concerned (and ask your
solicitor if need be) they are not at that stage waste. I have an
unused green wheelie bin. Well unused except that I use it to store
things from time to time. Just because it's a green wheelie bin
doesn't mean that whatever I place in it is waste. A lot of councils
tell their staff not tot walk onto a property to collect and empty a
wheelie bin - the bin must be placed on the pavement outside the
property or it must look as if the property owner intends it to be
emptied.

Golly, this armchair legal eagling, make it up as I go along stuff is
great fun. Isn't it!

If you want definitive, correctly worded legal advice, please visit
uk.legal. Here we try to help. Please be more specific in your
allegation and I will respond specifically. Meanwhile please continue
to make law up as you go along (or refer to your solicitor as
suggested above).

In this case, you
have not produced the waste - your customer (or your customer's trees)
have produced it

Er excuse me m'lud, but the trees ain't guilty, cos they had produced
the material but it didn't become "waste" until it changed "ownership"
by way of chopping.

See above.

It then lay on the ground as "waste" (on account of the whole "change
of ownership" bit) (do please at least try to keep up with your own
summations)

Ownership does not change if they are left on the ground - i.e. the
customer's property. If you read above I specifically refer to loading
the consequences of the operation onto a van/lorry. I have not (as it
is irrelevant) commented on the question of ownership of whatevers
removed from a tree which overhangs a neighbouring property but think
it appropriate to mention now to save you another post).

and you are collecting and removing it as part of
your business activity and so should be registered.

But you "don't need" to if you have "if to you are carrying waste that
you have produced unless its building or demolition waste."

Again, please take time to research the definition of "waste
producer".

I do hope you're never my lawyer.

So do I.

Oh!
I know, I know, I know.I've got it; eureka!

Pruning, or chopping", let's call that "demolition" shall we?

Be as pedantic as you like. Now consider a scenario: I manage (inter
alia) a business park where wheelie bins are placed in a number of
central positions. Individual tenants take their rubbish and deposit
in those bins. The local Council (also the "enforcement authority")
empties the wheelie bins under a contract between them and me. I do
not have an office on that estate. I drive there, park my car, wander
around visiting offices, checking people are ok and all that and then
leave. Occasionally a tenant will leave a bag of rubbish next to a
bin. Now answer:

1) For rubbish placed in the wheelie bins, who is the waste producer?
2) For the black bag placed on the ground next to the bin, who is the
waste producer?

While we're at it, has anyone ever been done for not registering?
Apart from the indemnity which the system gives to the customer, I
wonder whether it actually achieves anything. On that, purely
subjective, opinion, I recognise I'm open to challenge AC.

http://www.rivendell.org.uk coming soon

In article
,
aquachimp writes
I'm guessing that in this case, "part time" gardener has probably got
some sort of private medical insurance... not public liability. So if
asked have you insurance. "Oh, yes, of course" (-:
Either that, or he does have the insurance, but for the other half of
that "part time" bit.


That's what I thought from what she told me. i also think I was told so
that i might jump in and offer my help but the wisteria is up to bedroom
level and 1. I have never pruned a wisteria so don't feel confident |i
would make a good job and 2. I would not be covered as i would only have
my own insurance.

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In message , Janet Tweedy
writes
In article
,
aquachimp writes
I'm guessing that in this case, "part time" gardener has probably got
some sort of private medical insurance... not public liability. So if
asked have you insurance. "Oh, yes, of course" (-:
Either that, or he does have the insurance, but for the other half of
that "part time" bit.


That's what I thought from what she told me. i also think I was told so
that i might jump in and offer my help but the wisteria is up to
bedroom level and 1. I have never pruned a wisteria so don't feel
confident |i would make a good job and 2. I would not be covered as i
would only have my own insurance.

Janet
What a depressing thread. Is this what we are reduced to? Can't get a
wisteria pruned without a great debate about insurance and liability
just in case anything untoward happens. What about my window cleaner or
the people from the charity shop who come on to my property to collect a
bag of old clothes, the painter and decorator, the plumber, the Dyson
engineer etc etc. Must I ask them all for a certificate of insurance?
Seem so. How will I ever get anything done!!

--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha