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  #16   Report Post  
Old 02-10-2003, 11:14 AM
Bernard Hill
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

In article , Bernard Hill
writes
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

To be blunt: You have not a clue what is what in the world.

And quit spamming your nonsense to half the newsgroups in the world.

Franz


Oh! The light has suddenly dawned. I read "glycophosphate" for
"glyphosphate" and really couldn't see the connection with my weak knees
- I take 1g of sodium glycophosphate a day and am pretty sure it's
helping.


Bernard Hill
Selkirk, Scotland


Abort that stupid message. It's glucosamine I take. Nothing like what I
said. And glucosamine sulphate at that.



Bernard Hill
Selkirk, Scotland


  #17   Report Post  
Old 02-10-2003, 11:23 AM
Paul Rooney
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:34:31 +0100, Bernard Hill
wrote:

In article , Bernard Hill
writes
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

To be blunt: You have not a clue what is what in the world.

And quit spamming your nonsense to half the newsgroups in the world.

Franz


Oh! The light has suddenly dawned. I read "glycophosphate" for
"glyphosphate" and really couldn't see the connection with my weak knees
- I take 1g of sodium glycophosphate a day and am pretty sure it's
helping.


Bernard Hill
Selkirk, Scotland


Abort that stupid message.


It made more sense than most of the rest of the thread!

--
Paul
My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):
http://paulrooney.netfirms.com

Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at:
http://www.justgiving.com/london2004
  #18   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2003, 11:04 AM
Neil Jones
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
wrote in message
s.com...
See the full story

http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosb.html


SNIP

So what? Roundup is supposed to be used as a herbicide *on land*. How is
it supposed to get into the water? Remember that it is deactivated mighty
quickly when it gets into the soil.

..

Would that be the same surfactant which is used in washing liquids?

[snip]

How long did it take you to copy that from wherever you found it.
What on earth does that gaebage have to do with thre use of glyphosate as a
herbicide on terrestrial plants?

You must be truly short of a case if you have had to resort to copying all
that here.

Franz


Franz,

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.

Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.

This is without all the other bad logic you are using.

--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn
Bog National Nature Reserve
  #19   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2003, 04:02 PM
Peter Ashby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

" wrote:

Read that, think about it. Particularly the third sentence. Then if you
still don't understand the question we can talk about it. This is not an
answer to the original question. It may be a reason to look for lower
toxicity detergents for use with herbicides, but it is not an argument
against herbicides.


I'd rather not play with words, risk my life playing Russian Roulette.
the world can live without glyphosate thanks.


Tell that to the New Zealand dept of Conservation (DoC), they use it to
control invasive exotic species which threatent to take over sensitive
habitats. It is most useful because replanting with native varieties is
not inhibited.

Peter
  #20   Report Post  
Old 03-10-2003, 11:58 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects


"Neil Jones" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message

...
wrote in message
s.com...
See the full story

http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosb.html


SNIP

So what? Roundup is supposed to be used as a herbicide *on land*. How

is
it supposed to get into the water? Remember that it is deactivated

mighty
quickly when it gets into the soil.

.

Would that be the same surfactant which is used in washing liquids?

[snip]

How long did it take you to copy that from wherever you found it.
What on earth does that gaebage have to do with thre use of glyphosate

as a
herbicide on terrestrial plants?

You must be truly short of a case if you have had to resort to copying

all
that here.

Franz


Franz,

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.

Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.

This is without all the other bad logic you are using.


Let me have some samples. If a agree that the logic was bad, I would admit
it without further ado.

For normal horticultural purposes, glyphosate is inactivated when it enters
the soil. I have for a number of decades used glyphosate in my garden in
order to kill, for example, giant hogweed, nettles and dandelions which have
come up in the midst of garden plants. I have lost all the weeds and none
of the garden plants, in spite of the fact that a goodly fraction of the
applied glyphosate must have found its way into the soil.

Franz




  #21   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2003, 12:05 AM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects


"Neil Jones" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message

...
wrote in message
s.com...
See the full story

http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosb.html


SNIP

So what? Roundup is supposed to be used as a herbicide *on land*. How

is
it supposed to get into the water? Remember that it is deactivated

mighty
quickly when it gets into the soil.

.

Would that be the same surfactant which is used in washing liquids?

[snip]

How long did it take you to copy that from wherever you found it.
What on earth does that gaebage have to do with thre use of glyphosate

as a
herbicide on terrestrial plants?

You must be truly short of a case if you have had to resort to copying

all
that here.

Franz


Franz,

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.

Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.

This is without all the other bad logic you are using.


Let me have some samples. If a agree that the logic was bad, I would admit
it without further ado.

For normal horticultural purposes, glyphosate is inactivated when it enters
the soil. I have for a number of decades used glyphosate in my garden in
order to kill, for example, giant hogweed, nettles and dandelions which have
come up in the midst of garden plants. I have lost all the weeds and none
of the garden plants, in spite of the fact that a goodly fraction of the
applied glyphosate must have found its way into the soil.

Franz


  #22   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2003, 01:46 AM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects


"Neil Jones" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message

...
wrote in message
s.com...
See the full story

http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosb.html


SNIP

So what? Roundup is supposed to be used as a herbicide *on land*. How

is
it supposed to get into the water? Remember that it is deactivated

mighty
quickly when it gets into the soil.

.

Would that be the same surfactant which is used in washing liquids?

[snip]

How long did it take you to copy that from wherever you found it.
What on earth does that gaebage have to do with thre use of glyphosate

as a
herbicide on terrestrial plants?

You must be truly short of a case if you have had to resort to copying

all
that here.

Franz


Franz,

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.

Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.

This is without all the other bad logic you are using.


Let me have some samples. If a agree that the logic was bad, I would admit
it without further ado.

For normal horticultural purposes, glyphosate is inactivated when it enters
the soil. I have for a number of decades used glyphosate in my garden in
order to kill, for example, giant hogweed, nettles and dandelions which have
come up in the midst of garden plants. I have lost all the weeds and none
of the garden plants, in spite of the fact that a goodly fraction of the
applied glyphosate must have found its way into the soil.

Franz


  #23   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2003, 01:46 AM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects


"Neil Jones" wrote in message
m...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message

...
wrote in message
s.com...
See the full story

http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosb.html


SNIP

So what? Roundup is supposed to be used as a herbicide *on land*. How

is
it supposed to get into the water? Remember that it is deactivated

mighty
quickly when it gets into the soil.

.

Would that be the same surfactant which is used in washing liquids?

[snip]

How long did it take you to copy that from wherever you found it.
What on earth does that gaebage have to do with thre use of glyphosate

as a
herbicide on terrestrial plants?

You must be truly short of a case if you have had to resort to copying

all
that here.

Franz


Franz,

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.

Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.

This is without all the other bad logic you are using.


Let me have some samples. If a agree that the logic was bad, I would admit
it without further ado.

For normal horticultural purposes, glyphosate is inactivated when it enters
the soil. I have for a number of decades used glyphosate in my garden in
order to kill, for example, giant hogweed, nettles and dandelions which have
come up in the midst of garden plants. I have lost all the weeds and none
of the garden plants, in spite of the fact that a goodly fraction of the
applied glyphosate must have found its way into the soil.

Franz


  #24   Report Post  
Old 04-10-2003, 05:02 PM
Martin Brown
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

In message , Neil Jones
writes

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.


Whilst there are some "soils" where glyphosate is not immediately bound
up. They are in general so utterly infertile that you aren't likely to
be using weedkiller on them in the first place.

Glyphosate and for that matter several other common weedkillers are very
tightly bound to clays and/or organic material in soils on first contact
and so physically deactivated. The destruction of the molecule takes
longer but the stuff is very effectively tied up on hitting the ground.
It *has* to hit green plant material to work.

Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.


Likewise.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown
  #25   Report Post  
Old 08-10-2003, 03:02 PM
Neil Jones
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

Martin Brown wrote:

In message , Neil Jones
writes

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.


Whilst there are some "soils" where glyphosate is not immediately bound
up. They are in general so utterly infertile that you aren't likely to
be using weedkiller on them in the first place.

Glyphosate and for that matter several other common weedkillers are very
tightly bound to clays and/or organic material in soils on first contact
and so physically deactivated. The destruction of the molecule takes
longer but the stuff is very effectively tied up on hitting the ground.


I am afraid you are quite wrong on your science. You appear not to have
a proper
understanding of the processes involved. If it were to be as tightly
bound
as you claim then id would not be degrated. Basically it appears that it
is
bound rather as phosphate is by adsorption onto the surface of certain
materials.
In fact it pops on and off and the soil doesn't have to be that poor for
a diminution
of growth to be observed.

This is what just one study says.

" Although glyphosate is commonly thought to exhibit no residual
activity, recent field work with tomatoes has shown that phytoactive
residues can persist, at least in sandy soils. Adsorption may also be
low, and phytoactivity high, in soils with a low unoccupied P-sorption
capacity. This paper reports experiments designed to re-assess the
threat of glyphosate residues to crop plants.

http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/19...636cornish.htm

So it may depend on the amount of phosphate present. Very fertile soils
may have a lot and therefore it is not adsorbed.


It *has* to hit green plant material to work.


You keep going on about green plants as if this is something
significant.

You said previously,

"It is extremely specific to green plants that
are conducting photosynthesis."

I think this demonstrates that you don't understand the issue.
Glyphosate or
N-phosphonomethylglycine, to give its chemical name, does not have a
direct effect on
photosynthesis and also affects other non-photosynthetic organisms.

N-phosphonomethylglycine works by blocking the action of an enzyme
called 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate synthase which catalyses an
imporant step in the production of amino acids.

This metabolic pathway is NOT exclusive to photosythetic organisms and
occurs in a wide range of other creatures. For example it does occur
in the bug that causes malaria.

I certainly cannot judge the validity of whether Glyphosate is safe or
not on what you are saying.





Whilst I don't necessarily concur with the original posters
conclusion, It is not a good idea for you to poke fun and call people
clueless when you post things which, to me at any rate, look as if it
is YOU who does not understand the processes at work.


Likewise.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown


--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve


  #26   Report Post  
Old 08-10-2003, 04:12 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects


"Neil Jones" wrote in message
...
Martin Brown wrote:

In message , Neil Jones
writes

You are being hoisted on your own petard. You continually repeat a
statement which is OBVIOUSLY not truthfull. Glyphosate is not
necessarily inactivated on contact with soil. There are several
studies which show this and I have posted references before. You don't
need studies to show this because it is an OBVIOUS conclusion from the
nature of the chemistry involved.


Whilst there are some "soils" where glyphosate is not immediately bound
up. They are in general so utterly infertile that you aren't likely to
be using weedkiller on them in the first place.

Glyphosate and for that matter several other common weedkillers are very
tightly bound to clays and/or organic material in soils on first contact
and so physically deactivated. The destruction of the molecule takes
longer but the stuff is very effectively tied up on hitting the ground.


I am afraid you are quite wrong on your science. You appear not to have
a proper
understanding of the processes involved. If it were to be as tightly
bound
as you claim then id would not be degrated. Basically it appears that it
is
bound rather as phosphate is by adsorption onto the surface of certain
materials.
In fact it pops on and off and the soil doesn't have to be that poor for
a diminution
of growth to be observed.

This is what just one study says.

" Although glyphosate is commonly thought to exhibit no residual
activity, recent field work with tomatoes has shown that phytoactive
residues can persist, at least in sandy soils. Adsorption may also be
low, and phytoactivity high, in soils with a low unoccupied P-sorption
capacity. This paper reports experiments designed to re-assess the
threat of glyphosate residues to crop plants.

http://www.regional.org.au/au/asa/19...636cornish.htm

So it may depend on the amount of phosphate present. Very fertile soils
may have a lot and therefore it is not adsorbed.


I bet the effect was at a trivial level, otherwise, since glyphosate is used
on a truly vast scale, its deleterious effects would have made themselves
visible on a macroscopic scale, via, for example, reduced crop sizes.

[snip]

Franz


  #27   Report Post  
Old 08-10-2003, 05:02 PM
Peter Ashby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

In article ,
"Franz Heymann" wrote:

So it may depend on the amount of phosphate present. Very fertile soils
may have a lot and therefore it is not adsorbed.


I bet the effect was at a trivial level, otherwise, since glyphosate is used
on a truly vast scale, its deleterious effects would have made themselves
visible on a macroscopic scale, via, for example, reduced crop sizes.


I remember using glyphosate (Roundup) to kill a nasty lawn, after the
grass was dead I simply raked the soil, no new soil added, and re sowed
with dwarf ryegrass. Apart from needing to scare the birds we had no
problems. At the time we lived 300m from the sea on a reclaimed salt
marsh that had been market gardens. So very fertile, highly sandy soil.
If glyphosate was as persistant as claimed under such circumstances why
did my new lawn come up fine?

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.
  #28   Report Post  
Old 08-10-2003, 05:12 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:41:21 +0100, Peter Ashby
wrote:

In article ,
"Franz Heymann" wrote:

So it may depend on the amount of phosphate present. Very fertile soils
may have a lot and therefore it is not adsorbed.


I bet the effect was at a trivial level, otherwise, since glyphosate is used
on a truly vast scale, its deleterious effects would have made themselves
visible on a macroscopic scale, via, for example, reduced crop sizes.


I remember using glyphosate (Roundup) to kill a nasty lawn, after the
grass was dead I simply raked the soil, no new soil added, and re sowed
with dwarf ryegrass. Apart from needing to scare the birds we had no
problems. At the time we lived 300m from the sea on a reclaimed salt
marsh that had been market gardens. So very fertile, highly sandy soil.
If glyphosate was as persistant as claimed under such circumstances why
did my new lawn come up fine?

Peter


What a stupid, pathetic, completely illogical argument to support your
nonsense cause.

I once knew a nip who argued the same for the bomb on Hiroshima. Today
Hiroshima LOOKS a fine city, he thinks bombs are now necessary to
build fine cities. Needless to say the original bomb obviously
affected his marbles, glyphosate has obviously affected yours.










. . . . . . . .





The facts expressed here belong to everybody,
the opinions to me.
The distinction is yours to draw...

/( )`
\ \___ / |
/- _ `-/ '
(/\/ \ \ /\
/ / | ` \
O O ) / |
`-^--'` '
(_.) _ ) /
`.___/` /
`-----' /
----. __ / __ \
----|====O)))==) \) /====
----' `--' `.__,' \
| |
\ /
______( (_ / \______
,' ,-----' | \
`--{__________) \/

I'm a horny devil when riled.


pete who?

-=[ Grim Reaper ]=- 6/97

.""--.._
[] `'--.._
||__ `'-,
`)||_ ```'--.. \
_ /|//} ``--._ |
.'` `'. /////} `\/
/ .""".\ //{///
/ /_ _`\\ // `||
| |(_)(_)|| _// ||
| | /\ )| _///\ ||
| |L====J | / |/ | ||
/ /'-..-' / .'` \ | ||
/ | :: | |_.-` | \ ||
/| `\-::.| | \ | ||
/` `| / | | | / ||
|` \ | / / \ | ||
| `\_| |/ ,.__. \ | ||
/ /` `\ || ||
| . / \|| ||
| | |/ ||
/ / | ( ||
/ . / ) ||
| \ | ||
/ | / ||
|\ / | ||
\ `-._ | / ||
\ ,//`\ /` | ||
///\ \ | \ ||
|||| ) |__/ | ||
|||| `.( | ||
`\\` /` / ||
/` / ||
jgs / | ||
| \ ||
/ | ||
/` \ ||
/` | ||
`-.___,-. .-. ___,' ||
`---'` `'----'`
I need a drink, feel all giddy...hic!
  #29   Report Post  
Old 08-10-2003, 09:32 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Glyphosate & its side effects


"Peter Ashby" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Franz Heymann" wrote:

So it may depend on the amount of phosphate present. Very fertile

soils
may have a lot and therefore it is not adsorbed.


I bet the effect was at a trivial level, otherwise, since glyphosate is

used
on a truly vast scale, its deleterious effects would have made

themselves
visible on a macroscopic scale, via, for example, reduced crop sizes.


I remember using glyphosate (Roundup) to kill a nasty lawn, after the
grass was dead I simply raked the soil, no new soil added, and re sowed
with dwarf ryegrass. Apart from needing to scare the birds we had no
problems. At the time we lived 300m from the sea on a reclaimed salt
marsh that had been market gardens. So very fertile, highly sandy soil.
If glyphosate was as persistant as claimed under such circumstances why
did my new lawn come up fine?


Almost ditto:
I used to live on the Bagshot sand. I killed a has-been lawn with two
applications of glyphosate and raked up the dry stuff after some weeks. I
immediately resowed the patch, without even attempting to cultivate the
soil. Within a few months I had a luxurious new lawn. ( I did start
feeding it after it had got off to a start).

I simply cannot understand why folk continue to bring up negligible second
order effects ascribable to the use of glyphosate, except if they do it in
order to grind axes.

Franz


  #30   Report Post  
Old 10-10-2003, 07:10 PM
Bry Bry is offline
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2003
Posts: 51
Default Glyphosate & its side effects

Quote:
Originally posted by Franz Heymann
"Peter Ashby" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"Franz Heymann" wrote:

So it may depend on the amount of phosphate present. Very fertile

soils
may have a lot and therefore it is not adsorbed.


I bet the effect was at a trivial level, otherwise, since glyphosate is

used
on a truly vast scale, its deleterious effects would have made

themselves
visible on a macroscopic scale, via, for example, reduced crop sizes.


I remember using glyphosate (Roundup) to kill a nasty lawn, after the
grass was dead I simply raked the soil, no new soil added, and re sowed
with dwarf ryegrass. Apart from needing to scare the birds we had no
problems. At the time we lived 300m from the sea on a reclaimed salt
marsh that had been market gardens. So very fertile, highly sandy soil.
If glyphosate was as persistant as claimed under such circumstances why
did my new lawn come up fine?


Almost ditto:
I used to live on the Bagshot sand. I killed a has-been lawn with two
applications of glyphosate and raked up the dry stuff after some weeks. I
immediately resowed the patch, without even attempting to cultivate the
soil. Within a few months I had a luxurious new lawn. ( I did start
feeding it after it had got off to a start).

I simply cannot understand why folk continue to bring up negligible second
order effects ascribable to the use of glyphosate, except if they do it in
order to grind axes.

Franz
I recently had something similar happen, I had made a bucket of 4 pints glyphosate from powder to eradicate some bindweed, unfortunatly I spilt it on the lawn. As I expected a large patch turned brown and died, but there was a suprise, it was a perfect shape with razor sharp edges all the way around. I hadn't thought about the way it would look, but I must have expected something else such as a totally dead patch with sick grass around it.

The soil must have been saturated wtih glyphosate, but I managed to get grass seed germinating there within two months. Also, the edge was so sharp and visible I'm convinced it only killed the grass it touched and did not leach in to the ground killing plants via their roots. However, in comparison I have a few dead patches in the lawn over a year old where my 'helpful' step dad sprinkled a little salt on the slugs to kill them. No ammount of grass seed or watering to wash the salt down below the root level will revive these patchs. I'm going to have to dig them out with a trowl and discard the soil as it's useless and toxic to plants. In summary, four pints of glyphosate proved less toxic to my lawn than a teaspoon (perhaps desert spoon if you want to be generous with the estimate) of table salt.

I suspect the adversion to these products is more psychological than scientific because people assume something sold to kill plants/bugs/rodents must be really toxic and full of bad chemicals. Bizarely, those fear inspiring lables with skull and cross-bone symbols and warnings in huge red lettering have to be on weed killers regardless of what's in then, in fact if I was to mix vinegar and salt from my kitchen cupboard with water and sell it as weed killer I would have to by law put one of those lables on it, even though you could safely eat it on chips!


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