On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:23:43 +0000, Victoria Clare
wrote:

I've lived in South Wales.

me too!

It has an awesomely beautiful coastline that
frankly is as good as anything the Southwest can show, moorland,
mountains, beaches, castles, a really fascinating heritage, and it
doesn't rain any more than in Devon, (only 22 miles away).

or any less :-(


It's just not sold very well, and it tends to underrate itself and be
underrated by others. I think that is utterly tragic.

sssh! Let's keep it to ourselves.
--
Martin

"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
.205...
"Peter Crosland" wrote in
:

Even if you argue Eden and Heligan just live off tourists, Rosemoor
is in Torrington, for heavens sake, surrounded by acres of mud and
sheep!

And what is wrong with being surrounded by mud and sheep? Far better
than by pavements covered in litter!

I am myself surrounded by mud and sheep!

My point was that there is nothing wrong with that for a successful
garden,
and people are prepared to travel to out of the way locations to see them
when they are well promoted.

I mentioned Rosemoor because it is quite a way from either of Devon's
touristy coastlines, (at least 2 hours from the South coast, and over an
hour from, say, Woolacombe or Lynmouth on the North coast.)

Even the roads to it are pretty poor, particularly from the South, where
the majority of the tourist trade congregates. Yet people seem to manage
to
get there somehow: even out of season I've never seen it completely
deserted.

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--
It still loses money though and is heavily subsidiesed by the RHS who
consider it money well spent (so do I!)

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

"David Hill" wrote in message ...
".............The original Technium site in Swansea appears to be
booming,........."

What "technium" site in Swansea?

Oops. Sorry - taking too much for granted.

First of all, an 'incubator' (in the context of high-tech businesses)
is a building with lab and office space that small technology
companies can rent when they first start up - generally before they
actually have their product on the market, and so before they have a
revenue stream. Incubators often supply services like lab facilities,
reception staff, internet and phone connectivity etc, and may take
some of the 'rent' in the form of shares in their resident companies
rather than cash. So they are a way for small technology companies to
get going quickly without having to spend too much of their precious
start-up capital on rent or lab equipment.

Bearing this in mind, the WDA in Wales has launched a project to build
a number of incubators around Wales to boost the our technology
industry and keep our entrepreneurs in Wales. The first one, now well
established, is on the Swansea docks, and is just called 'Technium'.
There are others in the process of being launched, with names that
reflect their area of speciality, such as "Digital Technium", "Auto
Technium", or "Media Technium". Or "Aberystwyth Technium" which
presumably didn't want to limit itself to one subject area. And, of
course, the BioTechnium which is the big empty building visitors to
Middleton may have seen up on the hill, above the medicinal herb
garden.

The official Technium website is at
http://www.wda.co.uk/en/technology_a...n/technium.cfm if you
want to know more. The 'boom' I was referring to is the fact that they
have had to build a second building at the original Technium site,
called "Technium 2", to deal with all the companies who want space.
Meanwhile the BioTechnium is standing empty only 30 minutes away,
needing only the last fittings and lab equipment before it is
functional.

Hope that explains, and apologies to all for a wildly off-topic post.

Interesting development .... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3318617.stm

On 15 Dec 2003 08:40:57 -0800, (Philip)
wrote:

Interesting development .... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3318617.stm

I just got back from (another) meeting of volunteers.

The critical news is that there are plans for a demonstration this
Friday at the Carol service in tht Gardens, so if you can come and
would like to show support please please do come along. The Carol
service is this Friday, at 6pm (the speaker said 6:30 pm for 7pm, but
the poster definitely says 6pm). The demonstration will be something
like linking hands around the great glasshouse, possibly holding
candles or something similarly soppy but photogenic, so if you can
bring candles and matches or a flashlight that might be a good idea.

There now probably *will* be a newsletter in the next week or so, but
as we're a bit rushed getting pieces written for it I can't guess what
will be in it or even how it will be distributed.

Rhodri Clwyd-Griffiths was at the meeting - he's one of the trustees
(I think) and was giving the official party line. He said pretty much
the same thing as is reported in the BBC article Philip mentioned
above:
- there is a potential rescue deal in discussion
- he absolutely cannot discuss it
- it is not Prince Charles
- it is taking a lot of work. He looked very tired, I must say.
- no he reall canNOT discuss it, even though he would like to.

The trustees have not resigned (yet - apparently they had offered to
do so as far back as the first rescue plan rejected by Alan Pugh) and
the accountants have not yet taken over administration, although they
are there advising and presumably ready to take over if the Gardens go
into administration or liquidation.

The gardens will definitely be staying open all this week, and will be
open on Saturday. I gathered that they will also be open on Sunday,
but I cannot recall now if that was stated or if I assumed it.
Decisions on this mystery rescue package will have to have been made
by Friday, so we will hear an official statement then at the latest.

Rhodri C-G was doing his best to stick to solving problems rather than
placing blame, but he did let slip one or two interesting bits of
gossip.
These are unofficial, and filtered through my recollection, so please
don't blame him for any inaccuracies:
- the famous letter to the Gardens from Alan Pugh, the one available
on the Assembly website, informing them that he was turning down the
rescue plan, first reached the Gardens from the BBC. They did get
their copy a quarter of an hour or so later, but it had obvioulsy been
released to the press first.
- the announcement was also neatly timed to fall on the last day of
the Assembly is open before Christmas, preventing any real dialogue
from occurring before the Gardens would normally have to close.
- Pr Terry Stevens, who co-authored the scathing report from the Wales
Tourist board, also helped put together the original business plan for
the Gardens. Crucially, he was responsible for all the projected
visitor numbers, which I gather he then slated in his most recent
damning report. I also gathered that the WTB report started out by
claiming that the authors had no previous connection with the Gardens,
which is hardly true as he worked with them for 2 to 3 years. If
anyone knows where to see a copy of that latest report, I'd love to
know if this is true, for my own curiosity.
- The original business plan explicitly stated that the Gardens would
need a lot of public money in the early years - like every other
national institution. It is only once they are mature that they are
supposed to be self-financing (unlike any other National Botanic
Garden).
- REALLY reading between the lines now, I got the impression that the
Trustees are royally ****ed at the spin coming from Cardiff that is
trying to keep the Gardens portrayed as first, foremost and only a
tourist attraction. In fact a National Botanic Garden is a lot more
than that, it is also a cultural, educational, scientific and
(naturally) horticultural centre.
- The rescue plan put to Alan Pugh had the full support of the
Millenium Comission and the banks, reputedly, and the Trustees were
very surprised to have it blackballed at that late stage.


Anyway, some unsupported gossip and some hard facts - hope they are of
interest to some people here.

"..........The trustees have not resigned (yet - apparently they had offered
to do so as far back as the first rescue plan rejected by Alan Pugh) and the
accountants have not yet taken over administration, although they are there
advising and presumably ready to take over if the Gardens go into
administration or liquidation. ............"

I wouldn't have thought that Trustees would be allowed to resign when an
institution is having problems as they would then be getting out of any
liabilities that they might have in any resulting crash/winding up etc.

Interesting news/gossip you're passing on, do keep it up.
Just a pity that all the publicity regarding the gardens is so negative at
present.
Wonder if the England rugby squad would like to use the place for a weekend
training camp, that would bring in a few thousand visitors.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk
***2004 catalogue now available***

David Hill wrote:

Interesting news/gossip you're passing on, do keep it up.
Just a pity that all the publicity regarding the gardens is so negative at
present.
Wonder if the England rugby squad would like to use the place for a weekend
training camp, that would bring in a few thousand visitors.

As long as Jonny Wilkinson is kept away. It would cost a lot of money to
replace all that glass in the greenhouse. :-)

--
Howard Neil

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:19:32 -0000, "David Hill"
wrote:

~"..........The trustees have not resigned (yet - apparently they had offered
~to do so as far back as the first rescue plan rejected by Alan Pugh) and the
~accountants have not yet taken over administration, although they are there
~advising and presumably ready to take over if the Gardens go into
~administration or liquidation. ............"
~
~I wouldn't have thought that Trustees would be allowed to resign when an
~institution is having problems as they would then be getting out of any
~liabilities that they might have in any resulting crash/winding up etc.
~
~Interesting news/gossip you're passing on, do keep it up.
~Just a pity that all the publicity regarding the gardens is so negative at
~present.
~Wonder if the England rugby squad would like to use the place for a weekend
~training camp, that would bring in a few thousand visitors.
~

I hope to goodness it's still open in January as I would like to go
again. I find gardens in winter very illuminating, after all, most are
lovely in summer. And the basic design of this one is haunting - I
would love the rill, for instance!

I have a friend in Swansea who has never been there and wants to, but
they don't have a car and there is NO public transport to the site! So
I'd like to have the chance to take her.

Can you believe that? They set up something like this and the local
councils don't connect it to the rail network etc?


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC),
(jane) wrote:

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 23:19:32 -0000, "David Hill"
wrote:

~"..........The trustees have not resigned (yet - apparently they had offered
~to do so as far back as the first rescue plan rejected by Alan Pugh) and the
~accountants have not yet taken over administration, although they are there
~advising and presumably ready to take over if the Gardens go into
~administration or liquidation. ............"
~
~I wouldn't have thought that Trustees would be allowed to resign when an
~institution is having problems as they would then be getting out of any
~liabilities that they might have in any resulting crash/winding up etc.

I understand that some already have, which would imply that they have.
Or the resignations may just have been upper management, like the CEO.

I hope to goodness it's still open in January as I would like to go
again.

There's a good chance that the site will remain in one form or another
even if the Trust gets liquidated, as a lot of the value there is in
the plants and design of the garden. But if it goes into liquidation
or has to be closed to the public in the initial stages of
administration, you may be out of luck in January.

I don't suppose I can convince you that this Friday about 6pm to 7pm
would be a good time for you and your friend in Swansea to visit? ;Þ

Can you believe that? They set up something like this and the local
councils don't connect it to the rail network etc?


Rail would be tricky, as you would have to liaise with Railtrack, buy
land to lay the tracks, get planning permissionand so on.

But wouldn't it be lovely to have a bus service linking Swansea,
Middleton, Aberglasney and Carmarthen? I haven't looked at a map in
detail to see if that route would work, but there are other lovely
gardens in the area. I've totally blocked on the names of the two
gardens in Swansea, for example.

Gavin Wheeler wrote:

But wouldn't it be lovely to have a bus service linking Swansea,
Middleton, Aberglasney and Carmarthen? I haven't looked at a map in
detail to see if that route would work, but there are other lovely
gardens in the area. I've totally blocked on the names of the two
gardens in Swansea, for example.

The route would work, in the order you have stated.

--
Howard Neil

"........Can you believe that? They set up something like this and the local
councils don't connect it to the rail network etc? ....."

You have to be joking........the nearest railway line is at least 10 miles
away.........the cost would be enough to fund the gardens for the next 30
years.

The place crying out for a rail link is Cardiff Wales airport, there is a
line running along the south boundary fence, but when I worked in that area
the plans were to put a rail link in around 2010.


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk
***2004 catalogue now available***

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 09:30:10 +0000 (UTC), Gavin Wheeler
wrote:

~On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 08:28:51 +0000 (UTC),
(jane) wrote:
~
~I hope to goodness it's still open in January as I would like to go
~again.
~
~There's a good chance that the site will remain in one form or another
~even if the Trust gets liquidated, as a lot of the value there is in
~the plants and design of the garden. But if it goes into liquidation
~or has to be closed to the public in the initial stages of
~administration, you may be out of luck in January.
~
~I don't suppose I can convince you that this Friday about 6pm to 7pm
~would be a good time for you and your friend in Swansea to visit? ;Þ

Unfortunately not. I'm a little far away (near London) and a little
too prebooked! Would love to, if I didn't have guests...

~
~Can you believe that? They set up something like this and the local
~councils don't connect it to the rail network etc?
~
~
~Rail would be tricky, as you would have to liaise with Railtrack, buy
~land to lay the tracks, get planning permissionand so on.

I was thinking shuttle minibuses from the nearest station, maybe once
an hour round trip, dropping to bi-hourly in winter. They should have
done that...

~But wouldn't it be lovely to have a bus service linking Swansea,
~Middleton, Aberglasney and Carmarthen? I haven't looked at a map in
~detail to see if that route would work, but there are other lovely
~gardens in the area. I've totally blocked on the names of the two
~gardens in Swansea, for example.

That would also be good, though if it is a multi-destination thing,
it'd take hours.


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:11:51 -0000, "David Hill"
wrote:

~"........Can you believe that? They set up something like this and the local
~councils don't connect it to the rail network etc? ....."
As I forgot to say in this sentence, "by bus..."

but then you said
~
~You have to be joking........the nearest railway line is at least 10 miles
~away.........the cost would be enough to fund the gardens for the next 30
~years.
which piece of useful infomation shoots it in the foot nicely in any
case! Thanks for that figure.

And leads to the next obvious and rhetorical question - why didn't
they build the garden by a main transport/rail route?
(answers on a postcard to /dev/null :-)

*SIGH*

I still want to go again. If only to shoot a few hundred photos of the
hard landscaping/water rill so when, in ** years time I find a
millionaire :-) and have my country estate I can recreate it!

~The place crying out for a rail link is Cardiff Wales airport, there is a
~line running along the south boundary fence, but when I worked in that area
~the plans were to put a rail link in around 2010.
ok this is even dafter.

anyone'd think they want to keep furriners out of Wales...

jane (who is currently trying to understand why the Tube people are
digging up the lines into London during weekends when it's the main
Christmas shopping season.)


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:29:17 +0000 (UTC),
(jane) wrote:

[...]
And leads to the next obvious and rhetorical question - why didn't
they build the garden by a main transport/rail route?

What, like the M4? (Actually, it is no longer the M4 by the time you
get that far, is it, but it is still dual carriageway)

[...]
I still want to go again. If only to shoot a few hundred photos of the
hard landscaping/water rill so when, in ** years time I find a
millionaire :-) and have my country estate I can recreate it!

Alan Pugh seems so keen to monetise it, if you pull the stops out and
find yourself a millionaire you could probably buy the original.

"................And leads to the next obvious and rhetorical question - why
didn't they build the garden by a main transport/rail route?
(answers on a postcard to /dev/null :-) ............"

Like they did with the Eden Project?

Regarding Middleton(Look for Middleton on Google and the gardens come a long
way down the listings).

It is set in the former 18th century regency park of Middleton Hall in
Carmarthenshire, a 568 acre estate on the edge of the Tywi valley. The
Garden enjoys a pollution free environment, spectacular views of the
surrounding countryside and a rich cultural heritage.
But I suppose to have it in the middle of an Industrial estate would have
given it that something extra.......Like pollution and vandals.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk
***2004 catalogue now available***