"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
In article , tuin man
wrote:

"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...

Of course everyone has a story to tell and of course there will be
exceptions but in general I don't think that I can be swayed from my
view that those who communicate about gardening to millions of
viewers/readers should be a) as well qualified horticulturally as
possible; b) as experienced as possible; and c) as coherent as
possible.

There is another point here of course. For the first time it seems the BBC
gardening presenters are precisely that -"presenters".

AT, Geoff Hamilton ...... and all the way back to Percy Thrower were
gardeners first and presenters second.
They also used their own gardens. We the viewers were privileged to enter
their garden and get advice from them , see what they were doing and
possibly try the same. Its always nice to nose around in someone else's
garden . A village near me does a garden crawl and allows everyone to come
and snoop round neighbours gardens every couple of years or so.

Now the beeb use a TV garden ( well one leased by the TV for the purpose) -
and I think in doing that they have lost some of the personal quality in GW.
I used to like the fact that I was allowed into someone else's garden. Now
we have a show garden, a place the BBC can experiment. In a sense its not a
real place anymore - and its lost that personal contact. Its a show garden
( just like Chelsea)

I can understand why they have done this. Back in the old days of one
presenter in their own garden there was probably a limit to what the BBC
could do. Now they have a free hand to do BBC lovie type things!
I always felt sorry for AT because his garden somehow stopped being his own
( more than any of the other previous presenters) when they introduced the
"team" idea. I sometimes wonder if thats not why AT left his house and moved
to another one. He said he had "one more garden" in him - in other words he
didnt feel his garden was his anymore and had been changed into something he
didnt want?

Whilst this "team" can now have a free hand to be lovvie and try out
cutting edge design and show type things, its lost that personal touch.

We dont realise because its in the small print that actually Monty, RdeT
Chris Beardshaw et al are not the gardeners at Berryfields. The gardener at
Berryfields is someone else , and to all accounts highly qualified and
experienced proper professional gardener
Maybe he should be presenting the show?

Just a thought
( or two or three - sorry about the ramble)

On 2/6/04 23:55, in article , "Stan The Man"
wrote:

snip

In related areas, if someone is fixing my gas boiler, my teeth, my new
extension, my domestic wiring, my blood pressure, etc, I'm going to
find someone who, first and foremost, is properly qualified to do the
job. If they are also experienced, so much the better.

Simon

That is because all the things you cite above could involve you in danger.
I don't think there are many attacker foxgloves out there. ;-)

--

Sacha
(remove the weeds after garden to email me)

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In article , Sacha
wrote:

On 2/6/04 23:55, in article , "Stan The Man"
wrote:

snip

In related areas, if someone is fixing my gas boiler, my teeth, my new
extension, my domestic wiring, my blood pressure, etc, I'm going to
find someone who, first and foremost, is properly qualified to do the
job. If they are also experienced, so much the better.

Simon

That is because all the things you cite above could involve you in danger.
I don't think there are many attacker foxgloves out there. ;-)

No foxglove attacks maybe, but there is plenty of danger elsewhere in
the garden. The DTI's data is never current but according to
http://www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/gs_stats.htm there are over
450,000 accidents requiring hospital treatment every year in the
garden, including 46 fatalities. See also ROSPA's data at
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/safety.htm#hass.

This may not be a huge number relatively but is large enough absolutely
to warrant broadcasters indemnifying themselves as much as possible by
employing qualified (and experienced) gardeners, imho. (It's also more
than the number of accidents involving gas boiler
servicing/installation, dental work, etc).

Simon

On 3/6/04 9:19, in article , "Stan The Man"
wrote:

In article , Sacha
wrote:

On 2/6/04 23:55, in article , "Stan The Man"
wrote:

snip

In related areas, if someone is fixing my gas boiler, my teeth, my new
extension, my domestic wiring, my blood pressure, etc, I'm going to
find someone who, first and foremost, is properly qualified to do the
job. If they are also experienced, so much the better.

Simon

That is because all the things you cite above could involve you in danger.
I don't think there are many attacker foxgloves out there. ;-)

No foxglove attacks maybe, but there is plenty of danger elsewhere in
the garden. The DTI's data is never current but according to
http://www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/gs_stats.htm there are over
450,000 accidents requiring hospital treatment every year in the
garden, including 46 fatalities. See also ROSPA's data at
http://www.dti.gov.uk/ccp/topics1/safety.htm#hass.

This may not be a huge number relatively but is large enough absolutely
to warrant broadcasters indemnifying themselves as much as possible by
employing qualified (and experienced) gardeners, imho. (It's also more
than the number of accidents involving gas boiler
servicing/installation, dental work, etc).

Simon
If you use those criteria, nobody should be allowed into their own garden
with an RHS diploma and given that most plants have at least some toxic
properties, we should all give up gardening completely.
And I really do fail to see that lack of an RHS diploma makes either the
individual or a broadcaster more inclined towards accidents in the garden.
In fact, Cheltenham seems to be ahead of you - I haven't read it yet but Ray
says he's seen something that indicates that the council has decided not to
do any public planting because their workers might hurt themselves using
gardening tools such as rakes, spades, trowels etc.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds after garden to email me)

On 3/6/04 10:26, in article ,
"martin" wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:11:01 +0100, Sacha
wrote:
snip

Cheltenham seems to be ahead of you - I haven't read it yet but Ray
says he's seen something that indicates that the council has decided not to
do any public planting because their workers might hurt themselves using
gardening tools such as rakes, spades, trowels etc.

Judging by our local authority, the next step will be to get rid of
all workers and replace them with administrators.

Apparently this is because the ground is so hard they might hurt themselves!
Good job we're not 'digging for victory', isn't it?
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds after garden to email me)

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:51:28 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

On 3/6/04 10:26, in article ,
"martin" wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:11:01 +0100, Sacha
wrote:
snip

Cheltenham seems to be ahead of you - I haven't read it yet but Ray
says he's seen something that indicates that the council has decided not to
do any public planting because their workers might hurt themselves using
gardening tools such as rakes, spades, trowels etc.

Judging by our local authority, the next step will be to get rid of
all workers and replace them with administrators.

Apparently this is because the ground is so hard they might hurt themselves!

LOL

Good job we're not 'digging for victory', isn't it?

Not many people know that certain expat urglers are on the local
escape committee :-)

Be very careful where you put those mole traps.

In message , martin
writes
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:11:01 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

If you use those criteria, nobody should be allowed into their own garden
with an RHS diploma and given that most plants have at least some toxic
properties, we should all give up gardening completely.
And I really do fail to see that lack of an RHS diploma makes either the
individual or a broadcaster more inclined towards accidents in the garden.
In fact, Cheltenham seems to be ahead of you - I haven't read it yet but Ray
says he's seen something that indicates that the council has decided not to
do any public planting because their workers might hurt themselves using
gardening tools such as rakes, spades, trowels etc.

Judging by our local authority, the next step will be to get rid of
all workers and replace them with administrators.

You mean you live somewhere where it hasn't happened already?
--
Joe

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:51:28 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

On 3/6/04 10:26, in article ,
"martin" wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:11:01 +0100, Sacha
wrote:
snip

Cheltenham seems to be ahead of you - I haven't read it yet but Ray
says he's seen something that indicates that the council has decided
not to
do any public planting because their workers might hurt themselves
using
gardening tools such as rakes, spades, trowels etc.

Judging by our local authority, the next step will be to get rid of
all workers and replace them with administrators.

Apparently this is because the ground is so hard they might hurt
themselves!

LOL

Good job we're not 'digging for victory', isn't it?

Not many people know that certain expat urglers are on the local
escape committee :-)

Be very careful where you put those mole traps.

LOL,
You might well joke but I recall an incident involving a mains water pipe to
a house.
Whoever had positioned it had done so within 2 inches of the lawn's surface
and sure enough, sticking a garden fork in one day resulted in a geezer.
Having being experience with irrigation systems, I wasn't too bothered, but
this being a mains pipe I wondered if I might be allowed to fix it.
First things first, turn off the water. But no stop-cock could be found. So
I knocked on the neighbours and asked if they knew where theirs might be so
I can find the one I need by comparison, oh and might he have a work number
for the customer.
The neighbour shut the door telling me not to touch another thing.
So I waited for him to return and have a bit more to offer. But no. Looking
at the slightly sunken lawn quickly becoming a filthy shallow pond I decided
to make some sort of emergency stoppage to the flow... if I could find the
location again.
I was no sooner back rummaging around in the water when I heard sirens.
Police I noticed and then noticed the somewhat different vehicle. Then they
carried out an odd manoeuvre and whizzed up alongside me driving in reverse.
On stopping, the passenger gave the driver something that looked just like a
shotgun and then he picked up his own. They both sat there glaring at me,
weapons, or whatever they were, at the ready. I didn't move. I expected some
sort of challenge. But no. Silence. I hesitated to make any move whatsoever.
Finally I figured that if I didn't at least try to speak to them, they might
just shoot me in any case. I said; "He called you out for this?"
They relaxed, put down their toys, said something about the neighbour
deserving to be locked up and then simply drove off.
To this day I wished they had at least knocked on his door.
Much later I discovered he was inclined to refer to himself as a judge.Quite
an escape from reality.
I can just see it. He dials 999, says he's judge something-or-other and
there's an Irish man at the door.


Patrick

"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
Of course everyone has a story to tell and of course there will be
exceptions but in general I don't think that I can be swayed from my
view that those who communicate about gardening to millions of
viewers/readers should be a) as well qualified horticulturally as
possible; b) as experienced as possible; and c) as coherent as
possible.

Quite reasonable though fails to identify that "qualified" does not and
should not only mean via an acedemic course, leading to a piece of paper.
This applies especially in gardening because of its evolving, ever learning
nature.


In related areas, if someone is fixing my gas boiler, my teeth, my new
extension, my domestic wiring, my blood pressure, etc, I'm going to
find someone who, first and foremost, is properly qualified to do the
job. If they are also experienced, so much the better.

Simon

And there's the catch; "properly qualified" and how that is to be
interpreted. Many people start off as teachers for a course on a subject
that had seemed to be waiting for them to come along and open the door, yet
they themselves never become the course's post graduates in the real sense.

Would that make them unqualified?
And therefore not acceptable to you?

Patrick

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 14:51:28 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

On 3/6/04 10:26, in article ,
"martin" wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 10:11:01 +0100, Sacha
wrote:
snip

Cheltenham seems to be ahead of you - I haven't read it yet but Ray
says he's seen something that indicates that the council has decided
not to
do any public planting because their workers might hurt themselves
using
gardening tools such as rakes, spades, trowels etc.

Judging by our local authority, the next step will be to get rid of
all workers and replace them with administrators.

Apparently this is because the ground is so hard they might hurt
themselves!

LOL

Good job we're not 'digging for victory', isn't it?

Not many people know that certain expat urglers are on the local
escape committee :-)

Be very careful where you put those mole traps.

LOL,
You might well joke but I recall an incident involving a mains water pipe to
a house.
Whoever had positioned it had done so within 2 inches of the lawn's surface
and sure enough, sticking a garden fork in one day resulted in a geezer.
Having being experience with irrigation systems, I wasn't too bothered, but
this being a mains pipe I wondered if I might be allowed to fix it.
First things first, turn off the water. But no stop-cock could be found. So
I knocked on the neighbours and asked if they knew where theirs might be so
I can find the one I need by comparison, oh and might he have a work number
for the customer.
The neighbour shut the door telling me not to touch another thing.
So I waited for him to return and have a bit more to offer. But no. Looking
at the slightly sunken lawn quickly becoming a filthy shallow pond I decided
to make some sort of emergency stoppage to the flow... if I could find the
location again.
I was no sooner back rummaging around in the water when I heard sirens.
Police I noticed and then noticed the somewhat different vehicle. Then they
carried out an odd manoeuvre and whizzed up alongside me driving in reverse.
On stopping, the passenger gave the driver something that looked just like a
shotgun and then he picked up his own. They both sat there glaring at me,
weapons, or whatever they were, at the ready. I didn't move. I expected some
sort of challenge. But no. Silence. I hesitated to make any move whatsoever.
Finally I figured that if I didn't at least try to speak to them, they might
just shoot me in any case. I said; "He called you out for this?"
They relaxed, put down their toys, said something about the neighbour
deserving to be locked up and then simply drove off.
To this day I wished they had at least knocked on his door.
Much later I discovered he was inclined to refer to himself as a judge.Quite
an escape from reality.
I can just see it. He dials 999, says he's judge something-or-other and
there's an Irish man at the door.


Patrick

"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
Of course everyone has a story to tell and of course there will be
exceptions but in general I don't think that I can be swayed from my
view that those who communicate about gardening to millions of
viewers/readers should be a) as well qualified horticulturally as
possible; b) as experienced as possible; and c) as coherent as
possible.

Quite reasonable though fails to identify that "qualified" does not and
should not only mean via an acedemic course, leading to a piece of paper.
This applies especially in gardening because of its evolving, ever learning
nature.


In related areas, if someone is fixing my gas boiler, my teeth, my new
extension, my domestic wiring, my blood pressure, etc, I'm going to
find someone who, first and foremost, is properly qualified to do the
job. If they are also experienced, so much the better.

Simon

And there's the catch; "properly qualified" and how that is to be
interpreted. Many people start off as teachers for a course on a subject
that had seemed to be waiting for them to come along and open the door, yet
they themselves never become the course's post graduates in the real sense.

Would that make them unqualified?
And therefore not acceptable to you?

Patrick

In article , tuin man
wrote:

"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...

In related areas, if someone is fixing my gas boiler, my teeth, my new
extension, my domestic wiring, my blood pressure, etc, I'm going to
find someone who, first and foremost, is properly qualified to do the
job. If they are also experienced, so much the better.

Simon

And there's the catch; "properly qualified" and how that is to be
interpreted. Many people start off as teachers for a course on a subject
that had seemed to be waiting for them to come along and open the door, yet
they themselves never become the course's post graduates in the real sense.

Would that make them unqualified?
And therefore not acceptable to you?

Patrick

Probably not. Perhaps one reason for our declining education standards
is that too many teachers teach without having achieved their degree
and teachers' training qualifications. I know there will be exceptions
but in general we need a way to tell whether we can happily entrust our
children's education to certain institutions or certain teachers. You
seem to be arguing that there is no point to formal training at all and
I can't subscribe to that pov, whatever the field. I believe strongly
in a meritocracy - and the initial indication of a candidate's merit is
his/her formal qualifications. Without these diplomas and certificates,
we may have no reliable way to whittle 1000 job applicants down to a
manageable shortlist.

Simon

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:208306

In article , Stan The Man
writes

Probably not. Perhaps one reason for our declining education standards
is that too many teachers teach without having achieved their degree
and teachers' training qualifications.

Where are you talking about? Not UK, surely?

Firstly, when I was young, teachers were not required to have a degree,
and in practice only grammar schools had graduate teachers - primary and
secondary modern school teachers had only their teacher training
qualifications. The independent sector did not always require teacher
training qualifications.

Now, all state school teachers are graduates - I don't know about the
independent sector.

Secondly, in what way are standards declining? My children are learning
things that I didn't learn till much later in life.

Without these diplomas and certificates,
we may have no reliable way to whittle 1000 job applicants down to a
manageable shortlist.

Of course, unless the diplomas and certificates are relevant to the post
in question, even diplomas etc don't provide a *reliable* way - eg
requiring a degree for a job which is intellectually mundane but
requires good people skills may mean you find yourself interviewing a
group of highly intellectual nerds, while all the good communicators
have been sifted out ;-)

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

In article , Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Stan The Man
writes

Probably not. Perhaps one reason for our declining education standards
is that too many teachers teach without having achieved their degree
and teachers' training qualifications.

Where are you talking about? Not UK, surely?

Yes, UK. Where examination pass grades are _much_ easier to get than
they were when I was at school -- the Government's answer to poorer
teaching and diminished funding.

Firstly, when I was young, teachers were not required to have a degree,
and in practice only grammar schools had graduate teachers - primary and
secondary modern school teachers had only their teacher training
qualifications. The independent sector did not always require teacher
training qualifications.

Now, all state school teachers are graduates - I don't know about the
independent sector.

My father was a state school teacher for 40 years until 1997. He was
avery learned man but but some of his colleagues did not have degrees.
Where does your information come from?

Secondly, in what way are standards declining? My children are learning
things that I didn't learn till much later in life.

Maybe they do learn things about modern life that I wasn't taught. But
they learn less of English and mathematics than in my day. I have often
been shocked to see the uncorrected errors in my children's homework
after marking. Punctuation, grammar, mental arithmetic and more are way
too far down the list of teaching priorities nowadays.

Without these diplomas and certificates,
we may have no reliable way to whittle 1000 job applicants down to a
manageable shortlist.

Of course, unless the diplomas and certificates are relevant to the post
in question, even diplomas etc don't provide a *reliable* way - eg
requiring a degree for a job which is intellectually mundane but
requires good people skills may mean you find yourself interviewing a
group of highly intellectual nerds, while all the good communicators
have been sifted out ;-)

Anyone who interviews the wrong people for a job vacancy deserves
whatever they get.

Simon

"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
In article , Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Stan The Man
writes

Probably not. Perhaps one reason for our declining education standards
is that too many teachers teach without having achieved their degree
and teachers' training qualifications.

Where are you talking about? Not UK, surely?

Now, all state school teachers are graduates - I don't know about the
independent sector.

My father was a state school teacher for 40 years until 1997. He was
avery learned man but but some of his colleagues did not have degrees.
Where does your information come from?

Then you had better go and check your facts with your father. I am sure he
would be apalled at your arrogance.
Even in 1997 the rules stated that all new entrants to teaching had to be
both graduates and have PGCE or teacher training qualifications ( called
QTS)
Whilst some older teachers ( like your dad maybe?) who were trained before
1980 it was either a teaching certificate or a degree. Between 1980 and 1989
some graduates did teach without teaching certificates but not many.

The independent sector has nearly always required its teachers to be
graduate. It also prefers them to have teaching training qualifications. The
FE sector is the same. All FE teachers are now required to have a teaching
qualification as well as their professional qualifications ( even gardeners
...... they will take a BA in Education if they do not have a dgree or its
equivillent in horticulture/agreculture etc)

Secondly, in what way are standards declining? My children are learning
things that I didn't learn till much later in life.

Maybe they do learn things about modern life that I wasn't taught. But
they learn less of English and mathematics than in my day. I have often
been shocked to see the uncorrected errors in my children's homework
after marking. Punctuation, grammar, mental arithmetic and more are way
too far down the list of teaching priorities nowadays.

OK if you want someone to balme for this - dont blame the poor teacher who
stands in front of a class every day being called a c***, a t***** a p***
artist, a s*** , a w***** and suffers all kinds of verbal and physical abuse
as well as threats - blame the national curriculum, blame the fact we ( yes
I am a teacher and have taught in classrooms) have no means of sanction
over the childrens behaviour, and most of all blame INCLUSION ( putting SEN
and EBD kids into ordinary classrooms). This is robbing your children of the
attention and the lessons they need. Whilst a teacher is dealing with a
disruptive, statemented EBD child who really shouldnt be in school, she or
he cannot help your kid.

Also blame the dumbing own of educational standards on the same thing. The
system you understand and was educated in was one of meritocracy,
sponsorship and eliteism ( if you were not good enough you would fail the
exam) now we have a mass education system where everything is certificated
and children are not expected to fail anything. if all they can do is write
their name at the top of a bit of paper , we have to certificate it as a
bloody achievement ( for some it is).
Universities now have special needs depts to support students with poor
literacy and numeracy skills. 20 years ago they would not have been in
university , let alone taking nad being awarded degrees.

That is a politcal decision, not an educational one.

rant over.