Lisa,
I apprexciate your feelings, but would offer some consolation. To me,
bonsai is a process: not an end in itself. The pleasure of working with
trees, increasing their beauty as you work, is the real reward in bonsai.
It's the process, not the result that counts. If you think of it in these
terms, you will never look back with regret upon the hours, months and years
spent with bonsai.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Kanis"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2003 8:49 AM
Subject: [IBC] Bonsai partnership


A friend of mine took up bonsai as a pastime after she had to leave work,
when her first baby was born. That was a long time ago. She is now a
grandmother, five times over. In the intervening years she created a
magnificent bonsai collection. Two years ago, however, she told me that
she
could no longer keep up with the intensive maintenance her trees demanded,
and had decided to sell all the big ones she could not carry by herself. A
dealer was found who declared that he was prepared to take the trees as a
job lot, and offered her a pittance for them. When she protested, saying
that just the pots were worth three times the amount, he told her that he
wasn't interested in the pots, she could keep them if she wanted. So
almost
half of her collection left in a big truck -- all trees that she had
worked
on for 10 and 35 years, outstanding specimens, with their roots wrapped in
plastic. I asked her if it hadn't made her feel awful, but she shrugged.
"I
am relieved I no longer have the responsibility for them", she said. "I
felt
awful when I saw them becoming neglected, they didn't deserve that. I know
that they'll be looked after well, because they are too valuable to be
wasted." Then she smiled and said that now she'd finally be able again to
get some new trees, which she could style over the coming years, something
she couldn't afford to do when her full collection took up so much time,
and
so much space.

I wonder if she ever got used to the bare retaining wall along her
extended
rockery, where the biggest bonsai stood for many years. For my part, I
haven't.... quite.

The reason I am posting this story is prompted by a question that Andy
Rutledge asked in his Editorial of April, in Bonsai Today Online. In a
nutshell, for those who are not subscribers, he wished to know how people
felt about getting rid of bonsai in which they had invested so much time
and
so much of themselves.
He sees working on bonsai as the creation of a partnership between the
tree
and the artist, and considers it quite different from other artistic
endeavours, like e.g. painting or sculpting. Therefore, selling a bonsai
cannot be compared to selling a painting or sculpture; it is emotionally
traumatic. (I hope that's ok as the briefest possible summary, Andy?)

I have to dispose of a number of trees myself, because I have too many.
Of course I should have limited long ago the amount I acquired, but how
many
of us can do that, before it's too late?
Now, apart from one or two, I can't decide which I should let go. Like
Andy
has for his bonsai, I have plans for each of mine, and with the disposal
of
the trees comes the disposal of the plans... of the future. That is a
combination which is anchored very deeply, and hard to uproot.
However, the more a good potensai advances in the direction of a good
bonsai, the more work it demands, and I am getting desperate. So, when I
have finally reduced the numbers, I expect I'll feel the same as my
friend.... Relief.

Ultimately, we shall have to let go of all our trees, which implies that
in
the background of our partnership with them there is another, still
shadowy
partnership, just waiting.

Lisa


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Good thought, Marty. I agree. I have also noticed that my colleagues who trade and
sell bonsai tend to have the best bonsai. They invest a lot of energy and time into
the tree but don't feel compelled to hang on to them like I do. Their collections
usually look better than mine, and they learn more. There's a lesson in there, if
I'd only use it. ;-)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
=================================
Marty Haber wrote:
Lisa,
I appreciate your feelings, but would offer some consolation. To me,
bonsai is a process: not an end in itself. The pleasure of working with
trees, increasing their beauty as you work, is the real reward in bonsai.
It's the process, not the result that counts. If you think of it in these
terms, you will never look back with regret upon the hours, months and years
spent with bonsai.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Kanis"
A friend of mine took up bonsai as a pastime after she had to leave work,
when her first baby was born. That was a long time ago. She is now a grandmother,
five times over. In the intervening years she created a
magnificent bonsai collection. Two years ago, however, she told me that
she could no longer keep up with the intensive maintenance her trees demanded, and
had decided to sell all the big ones she could not carry by herself. A dealer was
found who declared that he was prepared to take the trees as a job lot, and offered
her a pittance for them. When she protested, saying that just the pots were worth
three times the amount, he told her that he wasn't interested in the pots, she could
keep them if she wanted. So
almost half of her collection left in a big truck -- all trees that she had
worked on for 10 and 35 years, outstanding specimens, with their roots wrapped in
plastic. I asked her if it hadn't made her feel awful, but she shrugged.
"I am relieved I no longer have the responsibility for them", she said. "I
felt awful when I saw them becoming neglected, they didn't deserve that. I know that
they'll be looked after well, because they are too valuable to be
wasted." Then she smiled and said that now she'd finally be able again to
get some new trees, which she could style over the coming years, something
she couldn't afford to do when her full collection took up so much time,
and so much space.
I wonder if she ever got used to the bare retaining wall along her
extended rockery, where the biggest bonsai stood for many years. For my part, I
haven't.... quite.
The reason I am posting this story is prompted by a question that Andy
Rutledge asked in his Editorial of April, in Bonsai Today Online. In a
nutshell, for those who are not subscribers, he wished to know how people
felt about getting rid of bonsai in which they had invested so much time
and so much of themselves.
He sees working on bonsai as the creation of a partnership between the tree
and the artist, and considers it quite different from other artistic
endeavours, like e.g. painting or sculpting. Therefore, selling a bonsai
cannot be compared to selling a painting or sculpture; it is emotionally
traumatic. (I hope that's ok as the briefest possible summary, Andy?)
I have to dispose of a number of trees myself, because I have too many Of
course I should have limited long ago the amount I acquired, but how many of us can
do that, before it's too late?
Now, apart from one or two, I can't decide which I should let go. Like
Andy has for his bonsai, I have plans for each of mine, and with the disposal
of the trees comes the disposal of the plans... of the future. That is a combination
which is anchored very deeply, and hard to uproot.
However, the more a good potensai advances in the direction of a good
bonsai, the more work it demands, and I am getting desperate. So, when I have
finally reduced the numbers, I expect I'll feel the same as my
friend.... Relief.
Ultimately, we shall have to let go of all our trees, which implies that
in the background of our partnership with them there is another, still
shadowy partnership, just waiting.
Lisa

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Bonsai aren't pets. Plants reciprocate no warm and fuzzy
feelings like a dog will (or a cat -- sometimes -- while you are
petting it. There's absolutely no point in getting emotionally
involved with a tree in a pot. There are always more where that
one came from.

Enjoy them, by all means, but as "things" not as "family."

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden



Good thought, Marty. I agree. I have also noticed that my
colleagues who trade and
sell bonsai tend to have the best bonsai. They invest a lot of
energy and time into
the tree but don't feel compelled to hang on to them like I do.
Their collections
usually look better than mine, and they learn more. There's a
lesson in there, if
I'd only use it. ;-)
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
=================================
Marty Haber wrote:
Lisa,
I appreciate your feelings, but would offer some consolation.
To me,
bonsai is a process: not an end in itself. The pleasure of
working with
trees, increasing their beauty as you work, is the real reward
in bonsai.
It's the process, not the result that counts. If you think of
it in these
terms, you will never look back with regret upon the hours,
months and years
spent with bonsai.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa Kanis"
A friend of mine took up bonsai as a pastime after she
had to leave work,
when her first baby was born. That was a long time ago. She is
now a grandmother,
five times over. In the intervening years she created a
magnificent bonsai collection. Two years ago, however, she told
me that
she could no longer keep up with the intensive maintenance her
trees . . .

SNIP

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I would suggest that if you have to get rid of some trees you might
consider giving them to friends, or beginners or people at your local
bonsai club. Maybe it would help reduce the sting of letting a tree go.
You could "keep in touch" so to speak. Some might cringe at the
thought of giving a nice tree to a beginner. People seem to be
outraged by mallsai, but for a lot of us, including me, our first trees
were mallsai. Giving a decent tree, and help with care, to a beginner
would help someone get off to a good start, and might be a good way
to burn off some bad karma. Just a thought.

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Hi Jim,

This (bonsai as "pets" or "family") was not the thrust of either the
comments here or of my comments in the essay. The fact is that the artist
and the tree have a partnership that necessitates cooperation in ways not
found in most (any?) other art(s). Selling or giving away something that is
unfinished, with the balance of "our" plans being unrealized is a bit
different than selling/giving away a work of art/possession that does not
carry this kind of baggage. This is not to say that doing so involves an
overabundance of drama, but it is often a bit more difficult.

Anyway, let's not mischaracterize the gist here.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
http://www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Bonsai aren't pets. Plants reciprocate no warm and fuzzy
feelings like a dog will (or a cat -- sometimes -- while you are
petting it. There's absolutely no point in getting emotionally
involved with a tree in a pot. There are always more where that
one came from.
Enjoy them, by all means, but as "things" not as "family."
Jim Lewis

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Well, Andy . . . I don't subscribe to BT Online and haven't read
the article/essay. I wasn't, in fact, commenting on anything you
wrote, but only on the warm and fuzzy tinge some of the message
in this thread seemed to be taking on. Bonsai don't "care" who
owns them, or even if they're owned. And, while I'll give people
trees every so often, cheapskate that I am, I hate like heck to
give away the pots! ;-)

In any event, I prefer not to imbue bonsai with too much
"deepness" or "significance." It is enough, I think, to enjoy
working with the trees and letting them be a means of relaxation
and perhaps, occasionally, creation (but that may be getting too
significant).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden


Hi Jim,

This (bonsai as "pets" or "family") was not the thrust of
either the
comments here or of my comments in the essay. The fact is that
the artist
and the tree have a partnership that necessitates cooperation
in ways not
found in most (any?) other art(s). Selling or giving away
something that is
unfinished, with the balance of "our" plans being unrealized is
a bit
different than selling/giving away a work of art/possession
that does not
carry this kind of baggage. This is not to say that doing so
involves an
overabundance of drama, but it is often a bit more difficult.

Anyway, let's not mischaracterize the gist here.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
http://www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Bonsai aren't pets. Plants reciprocate no warm and fuzzy
feelings like a dog will (or a cat -- sometimes -- while you
are
petting it. There's absolutely no point in getting
emotionally
involved with a tree in a pot. There are always more where
that
one came from.
Enjoy them, by all means, but as "things" not as "family."
Jim Lewis


************************************************** ***************
***************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen
Gardenworks++++

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***************
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http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
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+++++


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Jim: I see your point, but it's a tough thing for a lot of people to do. It
doesn't matter so much that our bonsai don't purr or wag their tails or get all
excited to see us. For many of us, the sentiment comes from our personal investment
into the bonsai. This is not so different from the uncomfortable feelings one has
wen selling a home and listening to the prospective buyers talk about how they want
to change something that you really worked on and made the house special to you.
Some of us are sentimental, and others are not. Vive la difference!
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Jim Lewis wrote:
Well, Andy . . . I don't subscribe to BT Online and haven't read
the article/essay. I wasn't, in fact, commenting on anything you
wrote, but only on the warm and fuzzy tinge some of the message
in this thread seemed to be taking on. Bonsai don't "care" who
owns them, or even if they're owned. And, while I'll give people
trees every so often, cheapskate that I am, I hate like heck to
give away the pots! ;-)

In any event, I prefer not to imbue bonsai with too much
"deepness" or "significance." It is enough, I think, to enjoy
working with the trees and letting them be a means of relaxation
and perhaps, occasionally, creation (but that may be getting too
significant).
Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL
======
Hi Jim,
This (bonsai as "pets" or "family") was not the thrust of
either the comments here or of my comments in the essay. The fact is that
the artist and the tree have a partnership that necessitates cooperation
in ways not found in most (any?) other art(s). Selling or giving away
something that is unfinished, with the balance of "our" plans being unrealized is a
bit different than selling/giving away a work of art/possession
that does not carry this kind of baggage. This is not to say that doing so
involves an overabundance of drama, but it is often a bit more difficult.
Anyway, let's not mischaracterize the gist here.
Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge zone 8, Texas http://www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis"
Bonsai aren't pets. Plants reciprocate no warm and fuzzy
feelings like a dog will (or a cat -- sometimes -- while you
are petting it. There's absolutely no point in getting
emotionally involved with a tree in a pot. There are always more where
that one came from. Enjoy them, by all means, but as "things" not as "family."
Jim Lewis

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Hello to All,

Jim,

HUH ?

You can really floor me with these opinions.

You know I have a brass ring made around 1945
in the shape of the Bomber wings.The work on
the ring is much more involved that what is
passing as Bomber wings in sterling silver on
Ebay.

It's a thing,but if I lost or damaged it,it would
really hurt.Especially since I had to work to get
the money to buy it back in the early 80's in
Philadelphia.[I only wear one ring.]

Yes,Bonsai,are trees and they don't wag or scratch
but there are many memories and I do get worried
if they go off colour or just don't look healthy[forget
the training].If stolen I would be very hurt,as much
as if someone burnt a painting I had done or an Old
Master.

When I send a tree away,I try to find them good homes
or I go quietly and put them back where they came
from.
When they die I ash them and re-use them as glaze.

There is stuff,or things,but when one spends so much
time on anything, there are bound to be memories.

But what the h.e. double toothpicks,this is probably one
of your statements designed to get a response.
Confused Khaimraj.
[West Indies/Caribbean,
Sempre Spring Zone.]

* I sometimes wonder if those who cannot design or
create can understand destruction beyond the loss
of companionship.Essentially their own self loss.
Empathy.




-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Lewis
To:
Date: 21 May 2003 11:15
Subject: [IBC] Bonsai partnership


Bonsai aren't pets. Plants reciprocate no warm and fuzzy
feelings like a dog will (or a cat -- sometimes -- while you are
petting it. There's absolutely no point in getting emotionally
involved with a tree in a pot. There are always more where that
one came from.

Enjoy them, by all means, but as "things" not as "family."

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden



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Jim: I see your point, but it's a tough thing for a lot of
people to do. It
doesn't matter so much that our bonsai don't purr or wag their
tails or get all
excited to see us. For many of us, the sentiment comes from
our personal investment
into the bonsai. This is not so different from the
uncomfortable feelings one has
wen selling a home and listening to the prospective buyers talk
about how they want
to change something that you really worked on and made the
house special to you.
Some of us are sentimental, and others are not. Vive
la difference!

Yeah. On occasion, Jackie would put me in the "not" camp, I'm
sure.

As for homes . . . it's all in what you call them, I guess --
homes or houses. I have lived in 37 towns in 8 countries, went
to 14 schools before I graduated from high school -- in Tokyo. I
can part with a home/house as easily as I can part from a bonsai
(but not the bonsai's "home" -- its pot ;-).

Dogs and wives are a totally different thing. I've had scores of
dogs and deeply mourned each of them as they left us; I've had
one wife for 43 years now, and hope I don't have to mourn her for
a good number of years!

And Khaimraj, I'm sorry if I surprised or disappointed you, but
what are you grieving about when a tree dies? The Tree? Or all
the "wasted" effort you put into it for . . . in other words,
are you grieving for yourself?

Now, I'd be a very unhappy (and even grumpier) person without
bonsai in my life, but while I may regret when a tree I thought
was pretty dies, I don't go into mourning; I'll look at the
roots and break a limb or two in an attempt to discover what
might have been the cause, then toss the carcass into the woods.
(And yes, I'll cuss at it if it was one I'd spent a lot of time
over.) I've just gone through an exercise where I've tossed out
a couple of dozen putative bonsai that I finally saw weren't
gonna ever make it as bonsai. They had their chance. No
regrets -- on either part.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Hello to All,

Jim,

confused,not disappointed.

When a tree dies [ a couple of years ago I had a
36 year old Sparrow Plum /Sweet Plum die],it's the
tree and all the memories that I miss.

Hence the ashing,gone but not forgotten.

Hmm,never thought about the effort part.For me
Bonsai are memories.It is after all ,all we take when
we move on .......

Trees with me tend to die very slowly,as I do every
thing I can to save it.With the sparrow plum it was
about 10 months.Why did it die.Because I didn't realise
that the Chinese just chop and not root prune.
The tree rotted beyond it's 3 roots and then the rot
encircled the last matchstick thick cambiums.
Fortunately,I took cuttings in the first year I got the
tree.
Khaimraj
[West Indies/Caribbean,
Sempre Spring Zone.]


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Lewis
To:
Date: 21 May 2003 13:08
Subject: [IBC] Bonsai partnership



And Khaimraj, I'm sorry if I surprised or disappointed you, but
what are you grieving about when a tree dies? The Tree? Or all
the "wasted" effort you put into it for . . . in other words,
are you grieving for yourself?

Now, I'd be a very unhappy (and even grumpier) person without
bonsai in my life, but while I may regret when a tree I thought
was pretty dies, I don't go into mourning; I'll look at the
roots and break a limb or two in an attempt to discover what
might have been the cause, then toss the carcass into the woods.
(And yes, I'll cuss at it if it was one I'd spent a lot of time
over.) I've just gone through an exercise where I've tossed out
a couple of dozen putative bonsai that I finally saw weren't
gonna ever make it as bonsai. They had their chance. No
regrets -- on either part.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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No one is likely to confuse me with a sentimentalist, and indeed,
nothing ruins my day faster than getting a bonsai-Doctor diagnostic
form that ends "I gave this bonsai to my wife on our anniversary as a
testament of our love, and now it's dying! Please Help!"

However, I hate losing a tree. You not only lose all the care and
training you put into it, but you lose all the plans you had for it
in the future. I just lost an evergreen pear I've been working on
for 8 years, that was just starting to look the way I envisioned it
should look. I miss the cracked bark. I miss the shiny leaves. One
of these years, it would have bloomed pear blossoms. But not now.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Frederick, MD

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I just lost an evergreen pear I've been working on
for 8 years, that was just starting to look the way I
envisioned it
should look. I miss the cracked bark. I miss the shiny
leaves. One
of these years, it would have bloomed pear blossoms. But not
now.

Well, there's that. I lost an I. vomitoria this spring that was
just getting where it was supposed to be.

Sorry about the pear . . . but EVERGREEN pear???????????

Whatzit?

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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To Nina and all:
The reason I take photos is that I can always look at what my tree(s)
looked like (good or bad). So it is a sort of permanent record of my
feeble attempts.

People have asked me how Ican part with my paintings. After all I have
produced close to 800 paintings and have less than 100 scattered home
and at galleries. My answer is the same. I take pictures or slides and
that reminds me of my efforts to produce that particular painting (or
tree).

So I guess I fall in the Jim Lewis camp in that respect. I'm sure we
both have a lot of company!!! ;-)

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48


Nina Shishkoff wrote:

No one is likely to confuse me with a sentimentalist, and indeed,
nothing ruins my day faster than getting a bonsai-Doctor diagnostic
form that ends "I gave this bonsai to my wife on our anniversary as a
testament of our love, and now it's dying! Please Help!"

However, I hate losing a tree. You not only lose all the care and
training you put into it, but you lose all the plans you had for it
in the future. I just lost an evergreen pear I've been working on
for 8 years, that was just starting to look the way I envisioned it
should look. I miss the cracked bark. I miss the shiny leaves. One
of these years, it would have bloomed pear blossoms. But not now.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Frederick, MD


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----- Original Message ----- The reason I take photos is that I can always
look at what my tree(s)
looked like (good or bad). So it is a sort of permanent record of my
feeble attempts.


As I look at this discussion, I am reminded of the expressed need to "talk
to your plants" (Musta been from the feel-good seventies). This was aimed
at houseplants, so I talked to them, and said, "My way, or the dumpster."

Looking backward, I may have been a little short on tact, and hard on those
plants, whose only duty was to survive, but it has helped me with bonsai,
and I cull my collection with the ruthlessness of a sales manager.

Do I have trees that would be embarrasing to show? Of course. Most of these
are in the experiment stage; (I call them "victims").

Would my best trees be an embarrasment in the collection of one of the
masters on the list? Of course, But they are all an ongoing process that I
enjoy Some I keep simply because I remember what they have come from. The
enjoyment is greater when the process leads to something beautiful.

Carl does beautiful paintings. But, I'm sure that he has experiments that
have either been sanded off, if he works on board, or have disappeared under
a new painting. I feel that bonsai is the same way.

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Dear Bart:

I had to laugh at the last paragraph....you are absolutely right.
Paintings that have never seen the light of day are trashed!!! (all
three of them!) :-D don't I wish!

Best regards and thanks for the good laugh!

Carl

Bart Thomas wrote:

----- Original Message ----- The reason I take photos is that I can always
look at what my tree(s)


looked like (good or bad). So it is a sort of permanent record of my
feeble attempts.




As I look at this discussion, I am reminded of the expressed need to "talk
to your plants" (Musta been from the feel-good seventies). This was aimed
at houseplants, so I talked to them, and said, "My way, or the dumpster."

Looking backward, I may have been a little short on tact, and hard on those
plants, whose only duty was to survive, but it has helped me with bonsai,
and I cull my collection with the ruthlessness of a sales manager.

Do I have trees that would be embarrasing to show? Of course. Most of these
are in the experiment stage; (I call them "victims").

Would my best trees be an embarrasment in the collection of one of the
masters on the list? Of course, But they are all an ongoing process that I
enjoy Some I keep simply because I remember what they have come from. The
enjoyment is greater when the process leads to something beautiful.

Carl does beautiful paintings. But, I'm sure that he has experiments that
have either been sanded off, if he works on board, or have disappeared under
a new painting. I feel that bonsai is the same way.






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++++Sponsored, in part, by Evergreen Gardenworks++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++