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Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner)
Hi all,
I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin because of this. Namely: - When should I plant the seeds? I was thinking May... - Any tips on the kind of soil to plant seedlings in? - Should I grow the seedlings in any kind of incubator, or is a small tray enough? Even in summer, it can get fairly cold here (10 deg celsius or lower at night) - Should I feed or just water seedlings? - How long should I give the seedlings before I move them outdoors? Should I move them outdoors at all, or keep them inside to protect them from the weather? - If I'm moving them outdoors, any tips on media to transplant them into? - When Winter arrives (which I'm sure it will), should I move them indoors, or put them in some kind of cold frame? Any more tips on growing in the UK by anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated. I know these plants take years to grow before work can begin, bit IMHO, that's part of the fun. I do plan on buying a cheap plant to practice my pruning on. Many thanks, DSt. |
#2
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synex wrote: I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed There's the easy way and the more complicated way. The easy way is to plant seeds in some pots in fall and let them spend the winter outside. That way, they get their cold requirement the old-fashioned natural way, and they germinate in spring when they ought to. If you do anything else, you risk having delicate seedlings at the wrong time of year (for instance, you're just asking for problems if you germinate maples during the winter and have to keep tiny seedlings alive until spring). However, if you're trying to grow something that's not Scotland-hardy, you have no choice but to go the other route, which is to stratify the seeds according to the directions you can get in a book like Dirr's "Reference manual of woody plant propagation". Right now I'm studying Viburnum, and I need a bunch of seedlings of different species. So I have a refrigerator at 4 C and an incubator at 20 C, and I follow the directions on how to treat the seeds (soak for 24 hr, or abrade to break the seed coat), then I put the seeds in moist vermiculite in a closed container (a ziplock baggie would be fine; I use Petri plates) and store them so many months at warm temperature and so many months at cold temperature, and then plant them (I have access to a greenhouse, luckily). I've been planting straight into turface, which is working fine since I have an overhead mist system. If you don't have something like that, you need to use a plastic-covered seedling starter kit (in which case, beware of moldy conditions)or a heavier potting mix (beware of damping-off). You may also want to invest in a bottom heat mat, since seedlings germinating into cold soil will be slow-growing and susceptible to damping off. Nina |
#3
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Quote:
Another way is the seed gets exposed to heavy frost which breaks the shell and lets water in. We can do this ourselves by putting the seeds in the fridge for a few weeks or months,depending on the species, or putting them in a pot of sand and leaving the pot outside all winter. This takes longer of course but as the year wakes up (soon please!) the seeds break dormancy and grow! Of course having posted the above you're probably wanting to grow seeds from Field maple (simple enough, just like regular seeds in a pot now) or pine which cant be grown from cutings by the layman. I've not had experience with pine seeds(well, Ive had one bad experience) but I'm sure theres plenty on here that have! hope this small book helps, Larry
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If it can be grown I want it. If it can't I still want it! |
#4
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On Jan 25, 2005, at 12:18 PM, synex wrote:
Hi all, I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). snip If you're looking for a way to learn patience you've picked the hardest. Nobody on the list would say that it's a bad idea to start trees from seed. However, if it's the only way you're going to cultivate bonsai you'll have a very long wait. Any more tips on growing in the UK by anyone with experience would be greatly appreciated. I know these plants take years to grow before work can begin, bit IMHO, that's part of the fun. I do plan on buying a cheap plant to practice my pruning on. Many thanks, DSt. Buy a few junipers and learn how to style. You won't learn anything about styling by watching seedlings grow. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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synex wrote: Hi all, I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). you learn the same and quicker starting at mid way with a pre- bonsai .. startzing with seedling is just a lost of time.. do you think all people exibiting nice bonsai in houndreds of fairs all over the world started with seedlings when kids ? Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin because of this. Namely: Read Thomlinson .. he is a British citizen so he know what grows in your climate -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#6
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It is not a bad idea to grow plants for Bonsai from seeds. The one most
significant factor in making a Bonsai is, TONS of PATIENCE. And if you plan making these from seeds, well you need TONS x TONS of patience! (easier said than done). Buying a potential Bonsai plant from a nursery or collecting it from the field is to save on time, which is more precious than the amount one spends on buying. In fact one buys nursery-men's TIME at a very cheap rate. However one can (should) grow seeds of those species which are not available in the nearby nurseries and garden centers. All the best! Anil Kaushik Bonsai Club (India) Chandigarh "The City Beautiful" ----- Original Message ----- From: "synex" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:48 PM Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner) Hi all, I'm looking to start a few Bonsai from seed (I know you'll all tell me this is a bad idea, but I like to jump in at the deep end, and learn as much as I can the hard way). Now, I've been reading a lot of helpful guides on Bonsai growing, but most seem to be geared towards growing Bonsai in slightly warmer climes than my own (I'm in Scotland, UK). I'm wondering if I should take any special precautions before I begin............ Many thanks, DSt. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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Anil Kaushik wrote: It is not a bad idea to grow plants for Bonsai from seeds. The one most significant factor in making a Bonsai is, TONS of PATIENCE. And if you plan making these from seeds, well you need TONS x TONS of patience! (easier said than done). Buying a potential Bonsai plant from a nursery or collecting it from the field is to save on time, which is more precious than the amount one spends on buying. In fact one buys nursery-men's TIME at a very cheap rate. However one can (should) grow seeds of those species which are not available in the nearby nurseries and garden centers. Great Master like Kyuzo Murata advice to start with pre bonsai it is more fun and you can laern quicker .. of course in Japan exists is a whole section of the economy based on that, so you can find bonsai in quite different degrees and quality suitable to your taste and purse I personally bought lovely maples in nursery for a cheap price and in 4 years become lovely specimens .. seed or not seed it is the know how and time that will make a bonsai , from seeds .is in my personal opinion, far more complicate especially when you are a beginner as you have no idea of what and whow to do and which result you will get by your actions moreover a new born planta is more delicate until has a developed root apapratus and bonsai technicque are not applicaple for the first 2 -3 years at least on deciduous .. on pines it takes 10 time more When you buy in a nursery you know what you buy as you see what you buy ,from seedlings the genes change so often you have a nice surprise or a bad surprise... the best way in this case is to make grafting .. the miracle to make teh *instant bonsai* has not been invented yet one of the main tools to make bonsai is patience and sorry but the person that has a nursery live on that as the pot makers live on that and you earn your money your way ! if you decide to take out time from your business to make a bonsai and pots and tools to avoid spending money with shops, it will cost you far more than buying things properly made for that each of us has to do his business.. sorry for this ranting but when needed is needed we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending HIS time to get it ! Cheers MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
#8
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All,
Many thanks for the advice. You've given me some good help. I will look at the books recommended, as learning is paramount for me. Several things though - I did state that I was going to get a small shrub to "practice" on, and I will. Secondly, growing from seed is something that will happen for me, so why spend 5 years learning how to prune/style a tree, and *then* put some seeds in the ground to have to wait another 2-3 years when I can plant these now and practice on a shrub at the same time? That means I learn about growing from seed as well as learning about fully-grown plants. Incidentally, if anyone can recommend somewhere in the UK which will sell me a reasonably-sized, healthy bonsai, I would appreciate it. Most of the nurseries that do supply Bonsai will not move them by post, and are a little far away for me. Finally, to the peron that said "we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending HIS time to get it !" - I *AM* spending time to acquire knowledge, that's my purpose of being here. It's not about getting the most information for the least amount of work, which is what you seem to imply. The internet is a rich resource, and I am using it. Many thanks, once again, all. I'll let you know how things go... DSt. |
#9
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Incidentally - is it worth my while heading out into the wild and
trying to pick up some young trees? Obviosuly things like Scot's Pine and other attractive trees will be available in my area - but if they haven't been attended to from the beginning, will they be worth working on? And another question I forgot to ask - someone mentioned the "natural" germination - leaving them out in the frost and gradually progressing into summer. Would this be worth trying now? And if so, do I just put them straight into the ground and let them fend for themselves? Bearing in mind it's getting several degrees below zero, at the moment. |
#10
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synex wrote: All, Many thanks for the advice. You've given me some good help. I will look at the books recommended, as learning is paramount for me. Several things though - I did state that I was going to get a small shrub to "practice" on, and I will. Secondly, growing from seed is something that will happen for me, so why spend 5 years learning how to prune/style a tree, and *then* put some seeds in the ground to have to wait another 2-3 years when I can plant these now and practice on a shrub at the same time? That means I learn about growing from seed as well as learning about fully-grown plants. Incidentally, if anyone can recommend somewhere in the UK which will sell me a reasonably-sized, healthy bonsai, HI read first and learn .. from now to spring you have enough time to have teh ideas more clear about .. the Thomlinson books gives also the species that are suitable for a bonsai and how to choose them according some rules not all trees are suitable and some are more suitable tha others to try to explain all in few mails will only lead you intop a big confusion reading a book you'll see your preferences in matter of trees and teh eventual difficulties involved .. and with time you'll see more and more clear and make your own choices I would appreciate it. Most of the nurseries that do supply Bonsai will not move them by post, and are a little far away for me. Finally, to the peron that said "we all love to have free the knowledge some of us acquired spending HIS time to get it !" - I said so ! and I was talking of the time that people has spent to make out of the Bonsai a profession ,and a living it was not direct to you anyway I *AM* spending time to acquire knowledge, we all do, did, will do in future that's my purpose of being here. It's not about getting the most information for the least amount of work, which is what you seem to imply. you might have receptioned it this way , it was not my intention , but unfortunately, as I am on 4 different NG spanish italian english and french , I realized this is a sad reality The internet is a rich resource, and I am using it. Many thanks, once again, all. I'll let you know how things go... Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ... can be a rich complement though! I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind... but a do as you please.. MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote:
Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ... can be a rich complement though! I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind... but a do as you please.. Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him; the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page; hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug) I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but other studies (above) have filled in the gap. (And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?" I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-) GOTO: http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/ Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL." - Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
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On 26 Jan 2005 at 3:39, synex wrote:
Incidentally - is it worth my while heading out into the wild and trying to pick up some young trees? Obviosuly things like Scot's Pine and other attractive trees will be available in my area - but if they haven't been attended to from the beginning, will they be worth working on? Arguably, the best bonsai are from collected material. But you only collect material that has potential because you cannot change the basic shape of a mature plant -- dwarfed or not -- and why bother to dig young material? How do you recognize the potential in a scraggly, runted tree? Experience. Neophyte collectors should go with experienced bonsaiests the first few times out. ONLY collect with PERMISSION of landowner. (Unless you're happy in jail.) And another question I forgot to ask - someone mentioned the "natural" germination - leaving them out in the frost and gradually progressing into summer. Would this be worth trying now? And if so, do I just put them straight into the ground and let them fend for themselves? Bearing in mind it's getting several degrees below zero, at the moment. As with some many things in the bonsai world, "it depends." You are asking questions whose answers properly are learned after formal training and years of experience. It will depend upon the species. It will depend on how fresh the seeds are. It will depend on your climate. it will depend on your experience. It will depend on you ability to tend the seeds, it will depend on . . . the list of "depends" is almost endless. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. Except, for someone with as little apparent experience as you have at present, "no." This is yet ANOTHER example of how the I'net is a poor place to learn bonsai (or, more properly here, horticultural) techniques from scratch. Once your questions move from the shotgun to the rifle (general to the targeted) we can be of tremendous help. Until then, you are asking for a 500-page book on plant propagation to be typed out for you by someone. (?!) You need to find a local bonsai club and pick up a local mentor who can guide you though the plants that grow where you live in your climate, etc. Sorry to be so blunt, but . . . Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#14
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Jim asked: How do you recognize the potential in a scraggly, runted tree?
Answer: Develop your "inner eye". I once went out with a friend looking for potentsai. He spotted a beautiful beech. I knew right away it would be a loser; but he insisted, so I pitched in to help him dig it. Why did I think it was not suitable? 1. I knew that beeches have roots that cling to the surface and stretch out many meters from the trunk. 2. The lowest branch was more than a meter from the base. While he was busy with his beech, I looked around and found 5 little mountain laurels. It took me 5 minutes to dig all of them. After we lugged his beech to the wagon, I brought over my little treasure trove. "Where did you find them", he asked, " I didn't see them while I was looking." When I told him that my inner eye found them, he looked at me quizzicaly and remained quiet for a long time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:50 AM Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner) ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#15
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HI Pauline
This is why I adviced Harry Tomlinso as is an English person living in GB and using local stock or foreign under the british climate as a starting book for the next 4-6 years is perfect useless to start with big caliphers .. Pauline Muth wrote: IF you are stuck in an area with no bonsai club or studio to learn at, do try the following books: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques I and II American Bonsai Society Correspondence Course by Tom Zane David De Groot' s Bonsai Design ( Through American Bonsai Society) These can these you the basics and are thoroughly tested and have great information. But all in all you MUST get seasonal information and local species information from people in your area. Keep growing Pauline F Muth Zone 4 West Charlton NY USA www.pfmbonsai.com -----Original Message----- From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf Of Jim Lewis Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:38 AM To: Subject: [IBC] Growing Bonsai in the UK (help for a beginner) On 26 Jan 2005 at 13:47, Theo wrote: Intenet is useless unless you know the basic know how ... can be a rich complement though! I am doing bonsai since 27 years before internet existed and some people even far more than I.. and we all learned and still learn but without the basic knowledge internet will make a big mess in your mind... but a do as you please.. Theo may have overstated the case, but I tend to agree with him; the Internet a a very haphazard -- even spastic -- way to learn anything. Studies have shown that retention of material read on the I'net is much lower than material read from a printed page; hypotheses are that in a book or magazine, you can easily thumb back a page or two to find a definition, or clarify some past info, but with the net -- even with hyperlinks -- it's harder to find the exact spot for something you'd read earlier. (shrug) I'd even go a bit farther and say that books alone also are a damned poor way to learn bonsai. I've put a little essay on our Knowledge Base that outlines how researchers have determined people learn things. It is from before the WWW blossomed, but other studies (above) have filled in the gap. (And before someone chortles "But you just told us how crappy the I'net was for learning and now YOU've put something there?" I'll reply that it only proves my point. ANYONE can put stuff up on the I'net. It's reader beware. ;-) GOTO: http://internetbonsaiclub.org/knowle...articles/misc/ Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "IF YOU'VE SEEN ONE REDWOOD TREE, YOU'VE SEEN THEM ALL." - Forestry expert, Ronald Reagan ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ -- MSN messanger / or ICQ 25 666 169 4 Private Mail : «»«»«» Just for today... don't worry .....be happy «»«»«» |
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