in article , Jason Quick at
wrote on 6/4/03 11:42 PM:

Perhaps it's instructive to examine a sample substance - vinegar. I'm not a
chemist or food scientist, but it would seem to me that vinegar is vinegar
is vinegar - acetic acid, usually diluted with water to 5% acidity.
Chemically identical, no? But if you're farming using USDA organic
standards and want to use vinegar to kill some weeds, you can't use
synthetically produced vinegar, but only that produced by natural
fermentation processes. It doesn't make any sense. There are plenty of
other instances where the regs *do* make sense, though.

That may be the essence of the problem. It is like religion. You are given a
whole set of rules to swallow. If you do not swallow them whole, you are
heretic.

I get back to my question. Can my hydroponicly grown tomatoes, using mineral
nutrients only, be organic. If I use synthetic non-toxic sticky stuff to
catch white flies, are my tomatoes organic.

The more I find out about "organic" foods, the more the appear to be based
upon some kind of a religious cult. The cult may be relatively benign, but
does require conformity.

Bill

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/5/03 4:33 AM:

I don't like to use fish emulsion in the house as it smells,
plus I believe it would encourage the cat to dig up the
plant.

Aside from the smell, I think that it is unethical to use a perfectly good
source of edible protein (fish) in a protein short world to feed plants. The
plants can do just as well using nitrogen fixed by legumes.

Bill

On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:54:22 GMT, Repeating Decimal
wrote:

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/5/03 4:33 AM:

I don't like to use fish emulsion in the house as it smells,
plus I believe it would encourage the cat to dig up the
plant.

Aside from the smell, I think that it is unethical to use a perfectly good
source of edible protein (fish) in a protein short world to feed plants. The
plants can do just as well using nitrogen fixed by legumes.


No, they actually can't - as I was referring to miniature
tomato plants in 6" pots, growing in our bay window
throughout the winter. Hard to get many legumes into a 6"
pot....

I believe, however, that the fish emulsion is made from
waste products from fish processing plants.

Pat

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/5/03 10:28 AM:

On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 16:54:22 GMT, Repeating Decimal
wrote:

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/5/03 4:33 AM:

I don't like to use fish emulsion in the house as it smells,
plus I believe it would encourage the cat to dig up the
plant.

Aside from the smell, I think that it is unethical to use a perfectly good
source of edible protein (fish) in a protein short world to feed plants. The
plants can do just as well using nitrogen fixed by legumes.


No, they actually can't - as I was referring to miniature
tomato plants in 6" pots, growing in our bay window
throughout the winter. Hard to get many legumes into a 6"
pot....

I believe, however, that the fish emulsion is made from
waste products from fish processing plants.

Pat

OK go wild! Use, horrors, potassium nitrate, saltpeter. You can certainly
put that into your pot, but don't smoke it. You can also use potassium
chloride, potassium (di or mono) phosphate. I won't tell the organic produce
people.

Bill

I'm assuming these are fire ants, right?

we've long used uncooked regular grits on fire ant mounds. It has to be the
regular cooking grits, not the quick ones. sprinkle around the perimeter of
the mound. be generous. You may have to chase them around the property a
couple times as some of the survivors start a new colony. It's always worked
for us. It's funny to see the ants get so excited at all the free food.

Chris wrote:

Way back when, Fish wrote:

Is there any way to kill ants organically? We have tried pouring
boiling
water on the colony, but it is just too large. Are there any natural
predators of ants that could survive in a south-western Virginia
climate?

Thanks

Fish

Does anyone object to diametacious earth?

Nope ... it's on the "A" list.
--
Zone 5b (Detroit, MI)
I do not post my address to news groups.

In article ,
Repeating Decimal wrote:

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/5/03 4:33 AM:

I don't like to use fish emulsion in the house as it smells,
plus I believe it would encourage the cat to dig up the
plant.

Aside from the smell, I think that it is unethical to use a perfectly good
source of edible protein (fish) in a protein short world to feed plants. The
plants can do just as well using nitrogen fixed by legumes.


Fish emulsion is not edible.

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:13:03 -0500, Phaedrine Stonebridge
wrote in rec.gardens.edible:

In article ,
Repeating Decimal wrote:

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/5/03 4:33 AM:

I don't like to use fish emulsion in the house as it smells,
plus I believe it would encourage the cat to dig up the
plant.

Aside from the smell, I think that it is unethical to use a perfectly good
source of edible protein (fish) in a protein short world to feed plants. The
plants can do just as well using nitrogen fixed by legumes.


Fish emulsion is not edible.

Fish emulsion is made from a type of fish called "menhaden". Interesting
stuff. You can read all about it at http://www.menhaden.org/ . Here is a
snippet from that site:

Quote

The Atlantic menhaden fishery is probably America's oldest business. When the
first colonists arrived in New England, the local Indians showed them how to
fertilize their crops with menhaden caught close to shore. Over the years, the
fishery grew from its use as an agricultural fertilizer to a source of oil for
lamps and then to animal feed supplements.

The menhaden is a remarkable citizen of the sea. Inedible to humans because of
its bones, it provides forage for a number of other fish species.

End quote.
--
Gardening Zones
Canada Zone 5a
United States Zone 3a
Near Ottawa, Ontario

Jim Carter writes:
Aside from the smell, I think that it is unethical to use a perfectly good
source of edible protein (fish) in a protein short world to feed plants. The
plants can do just as well using nitrogen fixed by legumes.

Fish emulsion is not edible.

Fish emulsion is made from a type of fish called "menhaden". Interesting
stuff. You can read all about it at http://www.menhaden.org/ . Here is a
snippet from that site:
...
The menhaden is a remarkable citizen of the sea. Inedible to humans because of
its bones, it provides forage for a number of other fish species.

A fish emulsion product manufactured in Australia is Charlie Carp. It is
made from the European Carp--a worsening introduced pest that has been
thriving in our inland streams and fresh water lakes. Carp is so full of
bones as to be inedible. I think some people make fish soup from it, but
not too many. Until the garden fertiliser was marketted, the fish were
just gathered up and buried--a valuable resource wasted.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)

On Sun, 1 Jun 2003 15:35:34 -0400, Fish wrote:

Is there any way to kill ants organically? We have tried pouring boiling
water on the colony, but it is just too large. Are there any natural
predators of ants that could survive in a south-western Virginia climate?

Thanks

Fish

Try instant grits. Put about a teaspoon on the mound, it works for
fire ants. The workers take it into the mound and feed it to the
queen. The grits expand and kill the queen.

YMMV.
Pan Ohco

When last we left our heros, on Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:18:40 -0500,
Pan Ohco scribbled:

The grits expand and kill the queen.

No, they don't. That's an urban legend that just keeps making the
rounds. Apply a little common sense and you'll see right through
it.

There are no short term organic solutions for combating fire
ants. Long term, beneficial nematodes and cultivating healthy
soil helps to control them. You might also check with your local
extension office and see if they've started a phorid fly
introduction program.

If you're not sure what kind of ants you have, once again turn
to your local extension service. Native ants have taken a
beating in the last few years, and most are actually harmless
beneficials. Between competition from the fire ants, and being
poisoned by home owners who are afraid they're fire ants, their
numbers have dropped.

Pam





--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"

Is there any way to kill ants organically? We have tried pouring boiling
water on the colony, but it is just too large. Are there any natural
predators of ants that could survive in a south-western Virginia climate?


If they are plain black ants I don't worry about them. If they are fire
ants and I need them out of the yard because of pets or children, I've
had success with soapy water. It doesn't have to be boiling, just a
little sudsy. The water washes the nest out (mostly) and the soap
prevents them from using their smell to get back to the nest. Or
something. At any rate it's gone the next day.

This doesn't prevent them coming back someplace else in the yard. But
with weekly vigilance it kept my yard in Texas pretty much ant-free.



Dawn

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:01:39 GMT, Pam Rudd
wrote:


The grits expand and kill the queen.

No, they don't. That's an urban legend that just keeps making the
rounds. Apply a little common sense and you'll see right through
it.

There are no short term organic solutions for combating fire
ants.

Pam

Well Pam then that urban legend is working for me. As soon as a fire
ant mound shows up, I put grits on it and in a couple of days its
gone. I've kept my lawn here in Alabama ant free for quite a few
years.
Pan Ohco

"Pan Ohco" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:01:39 GMT, Pam Rudd
wrote:


The grits expand and kill the queen.

No, they don't. That's an urban legend that just keeps making the
rounds. Apply a little common sense and you'll see right through
it.

There are no short term organic solutions for combating fire
ants.

Pam

Well Pam then that urban legend is working for me. As soon as a fire
ant mound shows up, I put grits on it and in a couple of days its
gone. I've kept my lawn here in Alabama ant free for quite a few
years.
Pan Ohco

I just think they don't like your cooking.

When last we left our heros, on Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:40:43 -0500,
Pan Ohco scribbled:

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:01:39 GMT, Pam Rudd
wrote:

No, I wouldn't write anything this stupid. Pan Ohco wrote the
following line.


The grits expand and kill the queen.

No, they don't. That's an urban legend that just keeps making the
rounds. Apply a little common sense and you'll see right through
it.


Well Pam then that urban legend is working for me. As soon as a fire
ant mound shows up, I put grits on it and in a couple of days its
gone. I've kept my lawn here in Alabama ant free for quite a few
years.

So, Pan, can I call you Pan? I have a question for you.

What do fire ant queens eat?

Now, once you figured that out and see how ridiculous your
statement about grits expanding and killing the queen is, see
if you can figure out how throwing grits at a fire ant mound
might fool you into thinking that you're actually accomplishing
something other than annoying the ants.

Like I said, an application of common sense will do a whole lot
more good than throwing grits around.


Pam


--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"