in article , B. Joshua Rosen
at wrote on 6/3/03 8:43 AM:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 06:29:55 -0400, Brian wrote:



Jan Flora wrote:

In article , "B. Joshua
Rosen" wrote:



On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:24:42 -0400, Brian wrote:





Repeating Decimal wrote:



in article , The Tucson
Bender at wrote on 6/1/03 10:47
PM:





Is there any way to kill ants organically? We have tried pouring
boiling water on the colony, but it is just too large. Are there
any natural predators of ants that could survive in a south-western
Virginia climate?





Hot water sounds about as inorganic as you can go.




What makes you say that ?




Bill






There is no carbon in water, i.e. it's inorganic.



Good catch. I'll bet it would work though.

Ok, you got me there. I was looking at it from the organic gardener and
using poison.





Have you tried the Safer pesticides?, they use fatty acids (organic by both
definitions).

I have used potassium soap to get rid of ants. It wets then down so that
they suffocate. Diluted dishwasher detergent also works. At one time I used
to get shampoo from the 99¢ store that used ammonium laurel sulfate rather
than the more common sodium version so as not to add sodium to my soil.

Note that this wetting process is physical rather than chemical. There is no
residual activity. You have to be persistent for it to work. There is no
toxin taken back to the nest to kill the queen.

Bill

in article , Margaret Kenna at
wrote on 6/3/03 9:19 AM:



"B. Joshua Rosen" wrote:

Is there any way to kill ants organically? We have tried pouring
boiling water on the colony, but it is just too large. Are there any
natural predators of ants that could survive in a south-western
Virginia climate?



Hot water sounds about as inorganic as you can go.


What makes you say that ?


Bill



There is no carbon in water, i.e. it's inorganic.

So use carbonated water.

Strictly speaking, carbonates although containing carbon, behave
inorganically as far as chemical reactions are concerned.

I am guessing here, but I think that using washing soda (sodium carbonate)
solutions will give soapy characteristics to the solution. If I were to go
that route, I would try to get potash or potassium carbonate to add to the
water. It will add potassium to the soil. It will also raise soil pH, but
that is not always a desirable thing to to. In the West, where I live, the
soil is usually too alkaline anyway.

Bill

Way back when, Fish wrote:

Is there any way to kill ants organically? We have tried pouring boiling
water on the colony, but it is just too large. Are there any natural
predators of ants that could survive in a south-western Virginia climate?

Thanks

Fish

Does anyone object to diametacious earth?

Repeating Decimal wrote:

in article , Brian at wrote on
6/2/03 6:24 PM:



Hot water sounds about as inorganic as you can go.



What makes you say that ?



Where is the carbon in H2O. If H2O is organic,

It should go without saying, you know what I meant. No garden can grow
without water. You can get in debates with people on what is safe to
put on a garden and one thing they never argue is safe or not is water.
(unless you want to talk about pollution or acid rain)

why not H2S which is often
generated organically? How about organic compounds such as HCN? Because of
HCN, do not eat a lot of apple seeds at any one time.

The nuts have taken over chemistry as applied to food.

I grow great veggies hydroponicly. My plant nutrients do not see any carbon
or other products derived from living entities.

What about carbon dioxide, or do you have them in a vacuum ?

They eat the stuff
gratefully and seem to be happy.

Bill

Repeating Decimal wrote:

in article , Brian at wrote on
6/3/03 3:29 AM:



Good catch. I'll bet it would work though.



Ok, you got me there. I was looking at it from the organic gardener and
using poison.


If that is the case say so. Ricin is organic. So are a host of other plant
toxins ranging from those derived from amanitas or oxalic acid from rhubarb.

Bill

Okay I have to spell it out for you. Stuff that you can use on your
plants and still sell it as organic produce in a market place.

in article , Brian at wrote on
6/3/03 6:18 PM:

If that is the case say so. Ricin is organic. So are a host of other plant
toxins ranging from those derived from amanitas or oxalic acid from rhubarb.

Bill

Okay I have to spell it out for you. Stuff that you can use on your
plants and still sell it as organic produce in a market place.

I protest the perversion of the (American) English language to accommodate
people who don't now what they are talking about. There is incredible
inconsistency between what is organic (by almost any definition) and
"organic" food production. I would sure appreciate a definition of organic
as used by the "organic food industry." I don't think that there is one. It
may be possible to list what is organic for every food for every situation.

I cannot imagine that there is anything more organic, by any reasonable
definition, in this world than oleander leaves. They certainly are not good
for you.

Bill

In article , Repeating Decimal
wrote:

in article , Brian at wrote on
6/3/03 3:29 AM:

Good catch. I'll bet it would work though.

Ok, you got me there. I was looking at it from the organic gardener and
using poison.
If that is the case say so. Ricin is organic. So are a host of other plant
toxins ranging from those derived from amanitas or oxalic acid from rhubarb.

Bill

The Aleuts in Alaska used to use aconite from monkshood as a poison on their
spears, to kill whales. Monkshood grows wild in my garden -- it's gorgeous.

Jan

Repeating Decimal wrote:

in article , Brian at wrote on
6/3/03 6:18 PM:



If that is the case say so. Ricin is organic. So are a host of other plant
toxins ranging from those derived from amanitas or oxalic acid from rhubarb.

Bill



Okay I have to spell it out for you. Stuff that you can use on your
plants and still sell it as organic produce in a market place.



I protest the perversion of the (American) English language to accommodate
people who don't now what they are talking about.

There is incredible
inconsistency between what is organic (by almost any definition) and
"organic" food production. I would sure appreciate a definition of organic
as used by the "organic food industry."

Can't you use google ?

I don't think that there is one. It
may be possible to list what is organic for every food for every situation.

I cannot imagine that there is anything more organic, by any reasonable
definition, in this world than oleander leaves. They certainly are not good
for you.

Would you spray it on your garden ? No because the local store doesn't
sell it to spray or mulch your garden with it.
There is a lot of stuff nasty in nature. The way you keep on avoiding
the subject and talking about all the "bad" things in nature I wouldn't
dump hot lava, mercury, uranium, anthrax or oil on my garden either.
They are all organic, correct ?


Bill

You seem like a smart guy, why don't you get this ? or are you just
trolling ?

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:27:49 GMT, Repeating Decimal
wrote:


I protest the perversion of the (American) English language to accommodate
people who don't now what they are talking about. There is incredible
inconsistency between what is organic (by almost any definition) and
"organic" food production. I would sure appreciate a definition of organic
as used by the "organic food industry." I don't think that there is one.

There is now, as far as the USA is concerned. There has
been since October of 2002.

The definition of 'organic' is now set by the USDA.

Producers who sell more than $5000 per year must go through
a certification process in order to call their food
'organic' or 'organically grown' in the USA. Producers who
sell less than $5000 per year need not go through the
certification process, but must still comply with the
standards in order to call their food 'organic'.

Details are available at:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/features/Org...nicfarming.htm

As far as the USA is concerned, debating other meanings of
the word is as useless as debating how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin.

Restricting your own use of the word to its meaning as used
in chemistry is - of course - your privilege, but it's not
going to have any effect whatsoever on anyone else (except
perhaps your family members and friends). It will hinder
your attempts at communication with others, especially in
the context of gardening. In other words, I think it's
silly.

There are words which have acquired meanings that I don't
particularly like either, but my purpose in reading,
writing, or speaking is communication with others, so I
recognize reality and adapt to it.

Pat

in article , Brian at wrote on
6/4/03 4:42 AM:

Would you spray it on your garden ? No because the local store doesn't
sell it to spray or mulch your garden with it.
There is a lot of stuff nasty in nature. The way you keep on avoiding
the subject and talking about all the "bad" things in nature I wouldn't
dump hot lava, mercury, uranium, anthrax or oil on my garden either.
They are all organic, correct ?


Bill

You seem like a smart guy, why don't you get this ? or are you just
trolling ?

Of the items mentioned, only anthrax would be clearly organic. Oil might be.

I am not trolling. I am a member of the language police.

Bill

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/4/03 5:14 AM:

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 05:27:49 GMT, Repeating Decimal
wrote:


I protest the perversion of the (American) English language to accommodate
people who don't now what they are talking about. There is incredible
inconsistency between what is organic (by almost any definition) and
"organic" food production. I would sure appreciate a definition of organic
as used by the "organic food industry." I don't think that there is one.

There is now, as far as the USA is concerned. There has
been since October of 2002.

The definition of 'organic' is now set by the USDA.

Producers who sell more than $5000 per year must go through
a certification process in order to call their food
'organic' or 'organically grown' in the USA. Producers who
sell less than $5000 per year need not go through the
certification process, but must still comply with the
standards in order to call their food 'organic'.

Details are available at:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/features/Org...nicfarming.htm

As far as the USA is concerned, debating other meanings of
the word is as useless as debating how many angels can dance
on the head of a pin.

Restricting your own use of the word to its meaning as used
in chemistry is - of course - your privilege, but it's not
going to have any effect whatsoever on anyone else (except
perhaps your family members and friends). It will hinder
your attempts at communication with others, especially in
the context of gardening. In other words, I think it's
silly.

There are words which have acquired meanings that I don't
particularly like either, but my purpose in reading,
writing, or speaking is communication with others, so I
recognize reality and adapt to it.

Pat




I think that the organo-nuts are doing the country a disservice. I know of
no reason to expect "organic" food to be safer than other kinds. Good
practices and bad practices are to be found in both camps. What I want is
*wholsome* food.

Just for me to get a bearing answer the question: Is hydroponically grown
food organic? What is the reason(s)?

Bill

On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 21:50:46 GMT, Repeating Decimal
wrote:



I think that the organo-nuts are doing the country a disservice. I know of
no reason to expect "organic" food to be safer than other kinds. Good
practices and bad practices are to be found in both camps. What I want is
*wholsome* food.

Just for me to get a bearing answer the question: Is hydroponically grown
food organic? What is the reason(s)?


I think it either could be or could not be, it would depend
upon what it was fed with. Ugh. What a terrible
sentence....[takes a deep breath and tries again].

I think it could be organic, if organic plant food was used.
It could be not organic, if commercial plant food was used.

Pat

in article , Pat Meadows at
wrote on 6/4/03 5:19 PM:

I think it either could be or could not be, it would depend
upon what it was fed with. Ugh. What a terrible
sentence....[takes a deep breath and tries again].

I think it could be organic, if organic plant food was used.
It could be not organic, if commercial plant food was used.

That is my point. I use CHEMICALS! They are derived from MINERALS! Nothing
in them has recently been processed by living things.

Howard M. Resh, in his book hydroponic Food Production lists sources for
elements used in the nutrient solution. All the materials dissolved in water
are inorganic salts, acids, and bases. The include

Potassium nitrate
Calcium Nitrate
Ammonium sulfate
Potassium chloride
Phosphoric acid
Magnesium sulfate
Nitric acide

and other such items such as trace elements are provided by

Iron chelate
Boric acid
Borax
Copper sulfate
Zinc chelate
Manganese chelate
Manganese sulfate

and other similar item

I grow tomatoes using such solutions. There are impurities.

Are my tomatoes organic? can they be wholesome?


Bill

"Repeating Decimal" wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:

I think it either could be or could not be, it would depend
upon what it was fed with. Ugh. What a terrible
sentence....[takes a deep breath and tries again].

I think it could be organic, if organic plant food was used.
It could be not organic, if commercial plant food was used.

That is my point. I use CHEMICALS! They are derived from MINERALS! Nothing
in them has recently been processed by living things.

Perhaps it's instructive to examine a sample substance - vinegar. I'm not a
chemist or food scientist, but it would seem to me that vinegar is vinegar
is vinegar - acetic acid, usually diluted with water to 5% acidity.
Chemically identical, no? But if you're farming using USDA organic
standards and want to use vinegar to kill some weeds, you can't use
synthetically produced vinegar, but only that produced by natural
fermentation processes. It doesn't make any sense. There are plenty of
other instances where the regs *do* make sense, though.

Jason

On Thu, 05 Jun 2003 03:27:38 GMT, Repeating Decimal
wrote:



I grow tomatoes using such solutions. There are impurities.

Are my tomatoes organic?

I've no idea.


can they be wholesome?


I don't see why not. From aesthetic preference (if nothing
else), I would prefer to grow my tomatoes in the earth, the
way they have always grown.

However, when it's wintertime, I'm happy to grow tomatoes in
(soilless) potting soil in pots indoors and feed them with
commercial plant food (not organic).

I don't like to use fish emulsion in the house as it smells,
plus I believe it would encourage the cat to dig up the
plant.

Pat