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#61
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And some people say there's no God...
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood"
wrote: - Refer: .org On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote: Samuel W. Heywood wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote: Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a 33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone. Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow resemble little gods? He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent designers, despite their very tiny brains. ... so the gods have tiny brains? I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion. I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question. -- |
#62
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And some people say there's no God..........
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote: 1. You saw something awesome. 2. You cannot personally understand it. 3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky. Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great. Don't you think? |
#63
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And some people say there's no God...
"Michael Gray" wrote in message ... On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood" wrote: - Refer: .org On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote: Samuel W. Heywood wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote: Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a 33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone. Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow resemble little gods? He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent designers, despite their very tiny brains. ... so the gods have tiny brains? I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion. I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question. -- Hmmmm. It *is* amazing to see nature at work. In the case of a spider and it's web: seems pretty 'natural' to me. But then, some people would see the 'miracle' of the construction of a spider-web as proof that Jesus walked on water, raised people from the dead, and in another 'guise', created the universe. Now that's what I call a *leap* of faith. Greywolf |
#65
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And some people say there's no God..........
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote:
"Dan J.S." wrote in message ... My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God. Then he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he has a PhD). He has turned extremely religious. Claims there is no way that 'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things on atomic levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst scientists. I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion is not science and never will be. It is far beyond that. They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get. The most accomplished scientists tend to be less religious than "average" scientists, who are, in turn, less religious than non-scientists. Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of paint on a canvas. No, actually, imagining a Designer with inscrutable, magical properties is a lame way to "explain" something that is difficult to explain otherwise. We are all still waiting for an explanation of the Designer. Scientists like finding explanations; non-scientists, particularly theists, like things to have explanations. If there are no *good* explanations, a poor one will do. -- MarkA (this space accidentally filled in) |
#66
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And some people say there's no God...
Samuel W. Heywood wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote: Samuel W. Heywood wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote: Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a 33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone. Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow resemble little gods? He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent designers, despite their very tiny brains. ... so the gods have tiny brains? I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion. The universe is so complex, I would guess the gods' brains are so tiny as to be completely nonexistent. |
#67
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And some people say there's no God..........
Jangchub wrote:
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray wrote: 1. You saw something awesome. 2. You cannot personally understand it. 3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky. Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great. Don't you think? Do you still say that when they fly planes into buildings? |
#68
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And some people say there's no God..........
"MarkA" wrote in message news On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:55:21 -0400, Victor Faraday wrote: "Dan J.S." wrote in message ... My dad, who is a chemical engineer, had a hard time believing in God. Then he started studying quantum physics, and other complex sciences (he has a PhD). He has turned extremely religious. Claims there is no way that 'accidents' created the things that he studies - especially things on atomic levels. As a matter of fact, this is not so uncommon amongst scientists. I've got an undergrad degree in physics myself, and I concur. Religion is not science and never will be. It is far beyond that. They somehow get a lot more religious the deeper in science they get. The most accomplished scientists tend to be less religious than "average" scientists, who are, in turn, less religious than non-scientists. Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of paint on a canvas. The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it. He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image. Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god creator. Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal happiness. If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth? Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish, greedy and mean? Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his ‘free will’. This is totally specious. ‘Free will’ does no imply or require evil conduct. free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will. A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil. He already created other limitations on man’s ‘free will’. He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for his creations!) Then why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie, subjugate and even kill other men? This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god’s wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master not the characteristics of an all loving and caring god. Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way? There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is the work of an all caring and loving god??? Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally “innocent children” to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age? Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks, jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, poisonous snakes, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill and eat other animals to survive? World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths. World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more millions maimed for life. The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 250,000 men, women and children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally innocent children! There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and totally innocent children. The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and innocent children indiscriminately. Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and malnutrition. These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious persuasions. Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling, purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation systems including flying through the air. Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think he will let us enjoy peace and happiness eternally in his Heaven after death? And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents, siblings and friends? If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an “Intelligent Designer”. The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth. The objective evidence is that no god created man but quite the opposite; that man created gods! |
#69
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And some people say there's no God..........
On 19 Aug 2006 12:00:00 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming"
wrote: Jangchub wrote: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray wrote: 1. You saw something awesome. 2. You cannot personally understand it. 3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky. Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great. Don't you think? Do you still say that when they fly planes into buildings? I'm not sure I understand. Would I say what? I am a native New Yorker. I don't live there any more, but everyone I know does. While watching the first tower, then seeing the second plane as it drove through the second tower I didn't know what to day. I remember saying: what the **** was that. It was an unimanaged horror for everyone involved. I cried and got very quiet. |
#70
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And some people say there's no God..........
Jangchub wrote:
On 19 Aug 2006 12:00:00 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming" wrote: Jangchub wrote: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray wrote: 1. You saw something awesome. 2. You cannot personally understand it. 3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky. Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great. Don't you think? Do you still say that when they fly planes into buildings? I'm not sure I understand. Would I say what? I am a native New Yorker. I don't live there any more, but everyone I know does. While watching the first tower, then seeing the second plane as it drove through the second tower I didn't know what to day. I remember saying: what the **** was that. It was an unimanaged horror for everyone involved. I cried and got very quiet. I often hear people say "it's not hurting anybody" or "it makes them happy" when refering to irrational beliefs. Say something mundane like a person calling psychic hotlines. It doesn't hurt anybody directly. I used to feel this way. But there are evil things people do that can not be rationalized by anything other than the unbelievable. Flying a plane into a building one extreme. Or even the minority of Americans who believe God comes down from his thrown and magically injects a human soul into the zygote when the sperm and egg unite, so they forbid life saving research, because that would inconvenience the zygote's soul. By tolerating mundane irrationality, we create a environment where threatening irrationality can flourish. |
#71
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And some people say there's no God..........
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:46:32 +0000, Cary Kittrell wrote:
In article Xns982284D935994vicmanŽ.196.97.136 Uncle Vic writes: Once upon a time in alt.atheism, dear sweet Victor Faraday ) made the light shine upon us with this: Fantastic design without designer is a harder thing to buy into than belief in an Almighty alpha and omega. These atheist types are trying hard to reply in clever & witty ways, but they remind me of hayseeds who see priceless works of art as miscellaneous smearing of paint on a canvas. One must believe something is a design before he can designate a designer. Take the human body, for example. Perfect in every way. Or is it? If we were designed, why did the designer build in a self-destruct module known as the appendix, which serves no purpose other than to become inflamed and destroy us? And what can be said of a designer whose design fails during the critical stage of reproduction? A designer (described by worshipers as perfect in every way) that allows horrible birth defects to happen is either a monster, or a figment of your imagination. And beyond that, the Intelligent Design enthusiast needs to justify a moral Designer who creates the various astonishingly clever mechanisms which allow organisms to inflict endless misery and death on humanity. Such examples are endless, but my favorite is the trypanosome which causes malaria. This organism sports a mechanism whereby it continually shuffles the proteins on its cell surface, thereby causing the human immune system to be forever one step behind, playing an endless futile game of catch-up. This amazingly simple and elegant Design feature has caused the death of countless millions. As I say, such examples of intricate, elegant, and seemingly malevolent Design can be multiplied endlessly; parasitology alone provides many more. It's hard to see any way out of this dilemma for the ID'er. I suppose some possible justifications might be: -- the Designer didn't create THOSE bits, subsequent evolution did. -- the Designer's evil twin, the Malicious Designer, got to muck about in the Workshop. -- humans deserve it, so what's the problem here? -- the Designer's ways are mysterious indeed. -- any other suggestions? -- cary You forgot the best one of all: -- suffering is good for you. -- MarkA (this space accidentally filled in) |
#72
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And some people say there's no God..........
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:43:28 GMT, Jangchub wrote:
- Refer: On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 11:36:03 +0930, Michael Gray wrote: 1. You saw something awesome. 2. You cannot personally understand it. 3. Therefore there is an invisible old man in the sky. Push to shove, whatever enriches someone's spirituality or kindness or consciousness is a good thing. I don't believe in a creator, but I have no problem with those who do. And orb spiders are indeed awesome. I don't believe a god created them, but if someone else does and it touches their heart making them a better person, it's great. Don't you think? Any form of self-delusion is a potentially damaging thing. The real-world evidence for such a case is overwhelming. Delusion is NOT benign, even if it does make the deludee 'feel better'. -- |
#73
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And some people say there's no God...
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:01:00 -0500, "Greywolf"
wrote: - Refer: "Michael Gray" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:50 -0400, "Samuel W. Heywood" wrote: - Refer: .org On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Chris H. Fleming wrote: Samuel W. Heywood wrote: On Thu, 17 Aug 2006, Tough Tonto wrote: Last night just before bed, I looked out over my deck, and there over the middle of it, was the most magnificent spider web ever devised, shining in the spotlight. This wonder appeared perfectly circular and was about the size--and very much resembled-- a 33 rpm phono record, with very precisely placed circular strands close together with perfect symmetry. I still am not sure how this little master builder anchored this creation; must've been the hedge on one side and the chimney on the other, and maybe the deck; but all this stuff was a good ways off, and the masterpiece was hanging a good 8 feet over the deck. Another amazing thing is that we had a heavy rainstorm not 3 hours earlier, so this beauty was designed and built in less than 3 hours. So here we have a creature, with a brain maybe the size of a grain of sand, and likely less than a year old, building something any civil engineer would show with great pride. I got up to pee around 3 a.m., looked out, and it was already gone. Wonderful, but what does a nice spider web have to do with some people saying "there's no God"? Do you think spiders somehow resemble little gods? He is making the point that spiders are superbly intelligent designers, despite their very tiny brains. ... so the gods have tiny brains? I just knew that some very smart people would draw that conclusion. I just knew that one very stupid person would not answer the question. -- Hmmmm. It *is* amazing to see nature at work. In the case of a spider and it's web: seems pretty 'natural' to me. But then, some people would see the 'miracle' of the construction of a spider-web as proof that Jesus walked on water, raised people from the dead, and in another 'guise', created the universe. Now that's what I call a *leap* of faith. Greywolf Rather than a "leap of faith", I prefer to think of it as "jumping into the gaping bottomless chasm of superstion". -- |
#74
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And some people say there's no God..........
On 19 Aug 2006 16:40:44 -0700, "Chris H. Fleming"
wrote: I often hear people say "it's not hurting anybody" or "it makes them happy" when refering to irrational beliefs. Say something mundane like a person calling psychic hotlines. It doesn't hurt anybody directly. I used to feel this way. But there are evil things people do that can not be rationalized by anything other than the unbelievable. Flying a plane into a building one extreme. Or even the minority of Americans who believe God comes down from his thrown and magically injects a human soul into the zygote when the sperm and egg unite, so they forbid life saving research, because that would inconvenience the zygote's soul. By tolerating mundane irrationality, we create a environment where threatening irrationality can flourish. When our president in the U.S. was re-elected I looked at my husband, he at me and we both at the same time said, "this is going to be a third world nation in 50 years or less." Nothing will be made here, nothing invented here because our schools teach to the test, and overpopulation will prevail. I am disgusted by this religious right fanaticism. It's AS bad, if not worse than Muslims who are fanatical. I know many Muslims who are the sweetest, most caring people. There just seems to be a different animal these days which is taking religion as the law. Stem cells can end suffering. I will never vote for anyone who agrees with the president. |
#75
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And some people say there's no God...
On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:55:53 +0930, Michael Gray
wrote: Rather than a "leap of faith", I prefer to think of it as "jumping into the gaping bottomless chasm of superstion". I am not sure why non believers think people who are believers are superstitious. Spirituality is a very subjective thing and means different things to different people. When I'm engaged in conversation and the subject of god comes up, I ask people what they mean by "god." I am always surprised to find out many people use the term as a metaphor and it actually means nothing. My mother is always saying god watches out for her. If she wants to believe that, and it gives her some solace, I shut my mouth. I don't engage her in that discussion because I do not believe in god, or that someone is watching me who created me. It's still nice to allow for others to have their thoughts and sometimes it's really good to just shut my mouth. |
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