In article ,
enigma wrote:

Jangchub wrote in
:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:06:49 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

humans are omnivores. we don't need as much meat as western
society tends to eat, but we are evolved to utilize animal
proteins.

Yeah, we also don't have fangs to rip into an animal to eat it.
We use utensils. This is not natural. We don't need any meat
at all, not ever.

i don't know about you, but i have fangs. i have sharp, pointy
eyeteeth perfectly suited to ripping meat.
i was vegetarian for many years because i lost the gut bacteria to
digest meat. i've since recovered however.

untrue. cows are also omnivores. they seek out ground nesting
birds & eat the eggs & unfledged baby birds. they also will eat
mice. if there's a dead snake in the bale of hay, they happily
eat that too.

No, cows are not omnivores. Have you ever seen a cow hunt down
an animal and eat it?

as i said, cows will hunt out and eat ground nesting birds. it's
not accidentally eating a poor little birdy. they look for the
birds.

Because they have the ability to digest
something does not make them omnivores. It makes them vegan
based on their ability to gnash and digest food through a
multi-stomach process. Baby cows are the only animals who drink
milk from a cow. Ever see an adult cow drinking milk? Because
we abuse animals and feed them to other of the same type of
animals, including feathermeal, whole feathers, glop, ground up
animals, corn glop doesn't make them omnivores. I've never seen
a free range cow go for the meal when they have grass. Grass
fed beef is the best beef if you must eat it. Still, even their
muscle tissue is 60% fat.

Victoria, i majored in livestock management. trust me, i know what
i'm talking about. i was quite surprised to find out about the bird
eating too.
i agree that cattle should not be fed grains or what you call
glop. doing so only enriches the pockets of the pharmacutical
industry. cattle should eat grass, & whatever ground nesting birds
they desire.

yes, cows are prey. that's why we eat them. i'd like cites about
meat causing loss of bone calcium please.
Is this enough for you? Or do you need more?

that says that not enough protein is the issue, not that you
shouldn't eat meat.
the other sources have an agenda.

Majority of people do not catch and process their own fish and
slaughter their own cattle for beef. Take a ride to the local
chicken, fish, egg, beef production and processing plants to see
how they are murdered, the deplorable conditions they are forced
to live in while they lay in their own manure and urine for
weeks at a tiime in freezing weather in small pens with
thousands of other cattle, some dead already, to be hung upside
down, throats slit.

oh. i see you do believe PETA.


just as long as you don't support PETA...

Why not? What does PETA scare you? A little too real?

scare me? they have such a loose grasp on reality i'm surprised
they don't just float away.
no, PETA is an evil organization that chooses to manipulate
people's emotions about animals in order for the board of directors
to maintain their 6 figues salaries. PETA doesn't give a rat's ass
about animal rights or welfare. they take perfectly healthy kittens
& puppies from no-kill shelters and euthanise them, then dump the
bodies in dumpsters. any animal taken to a PETA shelter is killed &
stuck in a giant freezer. they don't even TRY to find homes for
them. why? "because it costs too much". seriously, how anyone could
support these fruitcakes is beyond comprehension!
lee

Surely, you believe in the ethical treatment of animals, and are against
"Confined Animal Feeding Operations"(CAFO), which are nightmares to man
and beast. All I am saying is that if we are going to eat an animal, we
don't have to torture it first. Meat eating would go down if Sunday's
dinner was the kids favorite calf, or pig, or chicken. For the good of
the planet and ourselves, we need to eat less meat and more vegetables.
Fortunately, we are gardeners, so that shouldn't be a big problem.
Pasture finished steers are leaner (less cholesterol forming saturated
fats), antibiotic free, healthier, cleaner, and much less polluting.
--

Billy
Republican and Democratic "Leadership" Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Zunx_goz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net

Billy wrote in

t.au:

Surely, you believe in the ethical treatment of animals, and are
against "Confined Animal Feeding Operations"(CAFO), which are
nightmares to man and beast. All I am saying is that if we are
going to eat an animal, we don't have to torture it first. Meat
eating would go down if Sunday's dinner was the kids favorite
calf, or pig, or chicken. For the good of the planet and
ourselves, we need to eat less meat and more vegetables.
Fortunately, we are gardeners, so that shouldn't be a big
problem. Pasture finished steers are leaner (less cholesterol
forming saturated fats), antibiotic free, healthier, cleaner,
and much less polluting.

of course i do, Billy. you should already know that. i'm totally
against Vilsack *because* he promotes CAFOs (and is a former
Monsanto exec).
i don't believe meat eating would go down if Sunday dinner was the
kid's calf, pig or chicken because i don't know *any* 4H kids that
*don't* eat meat. they know when they start with their animal that
it is going to be dinner for someone, maybe themselves... unless
it's a wool sheep or a draft steer. i don't disagree that Americans
could eat less meat, but i think trying to force veganism on
omnivores is silly.
i dispise PETAs lies & twisted "truths" that seek to manipulate
emotions rather than actually inform. i dispise that they *kill*
perfectly healthy & placable pets rather than even *try* to find
homes for them, because it would cost too much money to keep them
alive & cared for. heavens forbid anything like animal care cut
into the 6 figure incomes of the PETA board members! and that it's
not just pets turned into PETA its self, but they go out & get
animals waiting in no-kill shelters and kill those as well, that is
pure evil.
however, i'm having way too much fun making fun of their current
"sea kitten" campaign. what foolishness!
lee

Jangchub wrote in
:

I never said I support PETA, but can understand their
fanaticism. I don't spray paint fur coats, but I do feel very
sorry for those who wear them.

i have a fur coat around here somewhere... it belonged to my
mother, who was given it in the 30s when she went away to NYC to
school. it's mouton, a type of meat sheep. i have no guilt about
wearing that coat
and i'd be really angry if some twit dumped blood on it (because
that coat is older than most PETA members mothers).
so, you may pity me for wearing fur, but don't even think of
damaging my coat

I'm a vegetarian because I'm a Buddhist practitioner and don't
believe in killing, not because PETA manipulates me.

you kill plants. aren't they living things as well?
is it not a good thing to consciously accept ones nature & to be
grateful that any life form, animal, fish or plant, allows one to
live?

If you are a livestock management professional, you also have an
agenda. Right?

of course. my agenda is to see that animals (& plants) have as
good a life as possible before they fulfil their destiny.
unfortunately, groups of fanatical, but clueless, people like PETA
make that very difficult by manipulating people's emotions rather
than their intellects.
lee

"Jangchub" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:23:33 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

Billy wrote in

t.au:


Humans are NOT omnivores in the taxonomical sense because we can
digest animals. Would you drink monkey milk? Would you drink human
mother milk after you were weaned? After giving birth, do you think
human mothers should be hooked up to milking machines?

I need cites which prove humans are omnivores in their taxonomy.
Victoria

Playing the devils advocate here, there is damn little on the face of this
planet, in the air, or under the seas, that humans will not/do not eat.

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:51:17 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

Jangchub wrote in
:

I never said I support PETA, but can understand their
fanaticism. I don't spray paint fur coats, but I do feel very
sorry for those who wear them.

i have a fur coat around here somewhere... it belonged to my
mother, who was given it in the 30s when she went away to NYC to
school. it's mouton, a type of meat sheep. i have no guilt about
wearing that coat
and i'd be really angry if some twit dumped blood on it (because
that coat is older than most PETA members mothers).
so, you may pity me for wearing fur, but don't even think of
damaging my coat

I thought I made it clear I wouldn't do that. Nor would I throw out
my Thomasville leather couches which were 5,000 each. I wasn't a
vegan when I bought them, and I am not vegan now, but working toward
that aim.

I'm a vegetarian because I'm a Buddhist practitioner and don't
believe in killing, not because PETA manipulates me.

you kill plants. aren't they living things as well?
is it not a good thing to consciously accept ones nature & to be
grateful that any life form, animal, fish or plant, allows one to
live?

Plants are not sentient beings, so this is a ridiculous question.

If you are a livestock management professional, you also have an
agenda. Right?

of course. my agenda is to see that animals (& plants) have as
good a life as possible before they fulfil their destiny.
unfortunately, groups of fanatical, but clueless, people like PETA
make that very difficult by manipulating people's emotions rather
than their intellects.
lee

You see to it that plants have a good life? That's fanatical. I
cited information you requested. What of it? Nothing, right?
Victoria

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Updated daily when able.


Any chance you can rewrite your last post without the pronoun I.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Jangchub wrote in
news
You are WAY more into PETA than me because I have no idea what
you are talking about when you make reference to "sea kitten"
campaign.

oh, you should. it's quite disturbing (not gross, just...
disturbing)
http://www.peta.org/sea_kittens/

be sure to read the stories.

now, tell me if that is likely to help *at all* to stop
overfishing?

Humans are NOT omnivores in the taxonomical sense because we can
digest animals. Would you drink monkey milk? Would you drink
human mother milk after you were weaned? After giving birth, do
you think human mothers should be hooked up to milking machines?

what does milk of any kind have to do with eating meat?

and any human mother that needs to return to work, but still wishes
to provide her baby with breast milk certainly does hook herself up
to a milking machine. check out the Medela Pump in Style...

I need cites which prove humans are omnivores in their taxonomy.

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

hth
lee

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

Humans are NOT omnivores in the taxonomical sense because we can
digest animals. Would you drink monkey milk? Would you drink human
mother milk after you were weaned? After giving birth, do you think
human mothers should be hooked up to milking machines?

I need cites which prove humans are omnivores in their taxonomy.
Victoria

Omnivores (from Latin: omne all, everything; vorare to devour) are
species that eat both plants and animals as their primary food source.
They are opportunistic, general feeders not specifically adapted to eat
and digest either meat or plant material exclusively.[1] Pigs are one
well-known example of an omnivore.[2] Crows are another example of an
omnivore that many people see every day.[3] Humans are also
omnivores.[1][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnivore

Our canine teeth aren't for eating plants. They are taxonomically
incorrect for herbivores. Molars are perfect for vegetables. There you
go, a little meat and a lot of veggies. On a vegetarian diet,
in the wild, we would be hard pressed to find rice and beans to supply
our diets with all the proteins that we "physiologically" require.

Taxonomy (morphological), to my understanding, has been discarded as an
evolutionary tool in favor of mitochondrial DNA.

Victoria, I know you are trying to help, but you are over the top girl.
The melodrama is over the top. Relax. Nobody here wants to stomp a
kitten. People eat meat and there is no sin. Animals eat animals and
there is no sin. If you are raising children, you will feed them. Some
day the bugs will get us. You aren't going to deny them, are you?
--

Billy
Republican and Democratic "Leadership" Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Zunx_goz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net

Jangchub wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:17:56 -0600, "D. Staples"
Dead animal flesh in our body for days.
Yick.
Victoria
Get thee to an internist.

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:



How would that change what was said?
Victoria

I thought I made it clear I wouldn't do that. Nor would I throw out
my Thomasville leather couches which were 5,000 each. I wasn't a
vegan when I bought them, and I am not vegan now, but working toward
that aim.

Doesn't make sense to do such things. Nor wasting leather already
harvested. Becoming a vegan is a challenging path which needs
attention and discipline but may not be for everyone.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Jangchub wrote in
:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:25:31 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

what does milk of any kind have to do with eating meat?

Everything. We don't need milk after we're weaned. But somehow
parents teach their children meat is next.

what? that is totally unrelated.
and i realize you want to be vegan, but one can't make cheese
without milk... because that soy crap is nothing like cheese & it's
chemically processed to boot. nasty stuff.

and any human mother that needs to return to work, but still
wishes to provide her baby with breast milk certainly does hook
herself up to a milking machine. check out the Medela Pump in
Style...

Right, provide her baby, baby key word. She wouldn't pump for
her 12 year old, or for the household milk supply. She wouldn't
take hormones to stay in a state of pregnancy and delivery so
her milk continues. Do you know women who pump milk to serve
her family?

no, but my 8 year old still tells me how much he misses mummy
milk... i weaned him at 5 because i had had enough...
and very few farmers, even on factory farms, give their cows
hormones. they don't need to, it's an added expense that
compromises the health of the herd.

I need cites which prove humans are omnivores in their
taxonomy.

Your cite wrote:

Omnivorism

The key category in the discussion of human diet is omnivores,
which are defined as generalized feeders, with neither carnivore
nor herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food,
and who are capable of consuming and do consume both animal
protein and vegetation. They are basically *opportunistic*
feeders (survive by eating what is available) with more
generalized anatomical and physiological traits, especially the
dentition (teeth). All the available evidence indicates that the
natural human diet is omnivorous and would include meat. We are
not, however, required to consume animal protein. We have a
choice.

that is the definition of omnivore. we can eat both plant and
animal. we are neither carnivore *or* herbavore. we are BOTH. you
can't say we are not what we are just because *you* choose to eat a
vegan diet.
you will need to take synthetic vitamins with that diet however,
because there are vitamins that are unavailable in just plant
matter, like B12.

Clearly we are not omnivores by birth. We eat what's available.

definition of omnivore.

It's a choice. So, right there in that statement it clearly
defines we do not need meat, rather we choose it. That does not
make up omnivores. We are also a society in which one out of two
people will die of heart disease due to clogged arteries. Hey,
eat meat; gobble it down. No sweat. My preference is to get
what I need from plants, grains, nuts and seeds. My health, as
bad as it is, is probably better than most simply based on the
fat concent in my veins.

my health is just perfect & i eat an omnivorous diet. i am far
healthier now than i was during the 20 years i was a vegetarian. i
do have to take vitamin D supplement, for some weird reason despite
being outdoors a great deal, my body doesn't have enough vitamin D
& lack of vitamin D can be a precursor to cancer. but vitamin D is
normally not a dietary item. i need supplements because i don't
drink much milk or eat preprocessed breakfast cereals(both
artificially fortified with D).
as i said, there are certain vitamins you canNOT get on a strictly
vegan diet (ovo-lacto vegetarians can get them from eggs, milk,
cheese, etc).
lee

Jangchub wrote in
:

You are talking about common knowledge and I am talking more
about scientific taxanomic assignment. Humans do not have the
body parts to eat flesh. We use tools to kill animals, but that
doesn't mean we are omnivores. We can digest meat, but it
putrifies in our body for quite a while before it comes out.
Dead animal flesh in our body for days. Yick.

scientific data places humans squarely in the omnivore category. we
have cutting teeth for meat eating, and grinding teeth for plant
eating. we have the enzymes to digest both plant & animal.
meat does not "putrify in our bodies for days" unless we are ill. it
is digested along with plant materials . didn't you ever take
biology?
lee

Jangchub wrote in
:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 10:01:22 -0600, "D. Staples"
wrote:

Jangchub wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:17:56 -0600, "D. Staples"
Dead animal flesh in our body for days.
Yick.

Get thee to an internist.

My father in law is a surgeon. It takes meat several days to
make its way out.

i see why he's a surgeon. he doesn't understand gastroenterology...
lee

In article ,
Jangchub wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 02:25:31 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

what does milk of any kind have to do with eating meat?

Everything. We don't need milk after we're weaned. But somehow
parents teach their children meat is next.

and any human mother that needs to return to work, but still wishes
to provide her baby with breast milk certainly does hook herself up
to a milking machine. check out the Medela Pump in Style...

Right, provide her baby, baby key word. She wouldn't pump for her 12
year old, or for the household milk supply. She wouldn't take
hormones to stay in a state of pregnancy and delivery so her milk
continues. Do you know women who pump milk to serve her family?

I need cites which prove humans are omnivores in their taxonomy.

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm

hth
lee

Your cite wrote:


Omnivorism

The key category in the discussion of human diet is omnivores, which
are defined as generalized feeders, with neither carnivore nor
herbivore specializations for acquiring or processing food, and who
are capable of consuming and do consume both animal protein and
vegetation. They are basically *opportunistic* feeders (survive by
eating what is available) with more generalized anatomical and
physiological traits, especially the dentition (teeth). All the
available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is omnivorous
and would include meat. We are not, however, required to consume
animal protein. We have a choice.

Clearly we are not omnivores by birth. We eat what's available. It's
a choice. So, right there in that statement it clearly defines we do
not need meat, rather we choose it. That does not make up omnivores.
We are also a society in which one out of two people will die of heart
disease due to clogged arteries. Hey, eat meat; gobble it down. No
sweat. My preference is to get what I need from plants, grains, nuts
and seeds. My health, as bad as it is, is probably better than most
simply based on the fat concent in my veins.
Victoria

http://gotbodhicitta-wangmo.blogspot.com/
Updated daily when able.


Will you please read the damn posts. No one is exhorting you to be a
carnivore. If you are going to be a vegan, you need to have access to
essential amino acids (the building blocks of protein), such as those
found in combining beans and rice (which aren't always found together in
the wild), otherwise you will be one sick puppy ;O)

Please read the posts and don't miss characterize them. It seems too
melodramatic, and you gain nothing from flogging a straw man.
--

Billy
Republican and Democratic "Leadership" Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Zunx_goz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net

Jangchub wrote in
:

Oh, I see. So the cheese you eat is not processed? Cheese is
glue.

i make cheese. there's no glue in it (& there are vegetable rennet
substitutes).

You had a five year old child still suckling?

yes. although at 5 it's more for comfort than nutrition. to be
technical actually, i weaned him on his 5th birthday, so i had a
nursing 4 year old.

you will need to take synthetic vitamins with that diet
however,
because there are vitamins that are unavailable in just plant
matter, like B12.

No I won't! How ridiculous. I get everything I need from my
diet. Cows don't eat B-12 or other vitamins. They somehow
develop very large bodies full of protein and muscle...but are
also comprimed of 60% fat.

you aren't a cow. you are a human. you can't utilize food the same
was a cow can. you don't have a rumen. you can't get B 12 from a
vegan diet.

Malabsorption comes from meat using up too much of our calcium
to digest. I don't want to get into a big fight about it,
clearly that's not my aim, nor is it to inflict you with forced
vegetarianism, but you are not correct when you say we don't get
all we need from a plant based diet.

umm hmm.
lee

In article ,
enigma wrote:

umm hmm.
lee

Nobless oblige, good show.
--

Billy
Republican and Democratic "Leadership" Behind Bars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Zunx_goz4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net