In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:



Any comments on eggshells? I've got a lot ground up in my soil. It
would seem the calcium release would be slow, probably too slow.

Jeff



I've got a tool loosening the sort of like a cultivation but very
narrow. Why use it becomes the question. Answer the blade is made of
copper and is meant to diffuse a a small amount about.
Getting back to egg shells ....my compost reflects what we eat. Many
shells many bones many plants. Just return simple and complex as that.
I've sort of gleaned from "Teaming with Microbes" a Billy heads up
that my soil favors fungi and the bacteria are trying to obtain a
balance of sort. ( Poor humanoid attempt to understand life) .
Just in the last two days small 1/8 inch round fungi brown and Red
appears on my wood chips and on my raised bed. I smashed the red for no
other reason As I equate it with poison.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
http://ocg6.marine.usf.edu/~liu/Drif...atest_roms.htm

Jeff Thies wrote:


Found this uber technical bit on BER:

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/571

Any comments on eggshells? I've got a lot ground up in my soil. It
would seem the calcium release would be slow, probably too slow.

Jeff


You are correct. Eggshell as a way to increase calcium level will work
- next year or the year after. Chalk dust, or even a ground-up
Tums will allow the elemental calcium to get to the plant quicker. And
remember, BER is 1/2 about calcium level, 1/2 about even availability of
water. A good mulch layer is as important as the calcium.

Tony M.

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Paul M. Cook said:

So I added calcium to the soil, I used fish emulsion fertilizer and I
sprayed the leaves with calcium water. And BER set in anyway. No water
stress such as dry roots. I water every day as it is quite warm and the
pots dry fast. This is maddening because I lost so many tomatoes last
year
to BER. Just how much more can one do?


Use *much* larger pots.

I have a friend growing tomatoes in 10" to 12" pots. I know the tomato
has a huge root system and I usually see them in 5 gallon paint buckets.
Is she on a fools errand?

A balance is struck between the size of the root structure and the size
of the vegetative structure. They will be about equal. Larger the roots,
the larger the vegetative plant.


If you have a layer of gravel at the bottom of the pots "for drainage" stop
doing that.

Why is that?
Ca uptake is hindered by dry soil, or very wet soil that causes the
roots to rot and become dysfunctional. Ideally, the soil should make a
ball, if you squeeze it in your hand, but also break apart easily
between thumb and forefinger, i.e. not too dry or too wet.

Shade the pots by setting them in a wooden box (no bottom needed)
or, use large foam or double-walled pots.

Set up a drip irrigation system so the pots stay evenly moist.

Some varieties are more prone to BER than others. Sadly, this is not
something that is discussed in catalog descriptions and it's rarely brought
up anywhere else. That's too bad, really. It would be useful information.

I've hear that some packages have BER on them to signify resistance.
I've never seen it. It seems that some F1s are marked with resistance
traits.

'Green Zebra' is a variety that has proven to be consistantly prone to
BER in my garden. Liked the tomato, but stopped growing it because
of this fault. It would suffer BER when no other variety did.

Long, pointed varieties (plum tomatoes, for example) are prone to BER.

'Early Girl' may be very popular but (in my experience) it is slightly
more
prone to BER than other small, round, quick maturing varieties.

Found this uber technical bit on BER:

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/571
A good article, and I thank you for it.
Among other things, it says that no one is sure if calcium has a role to
play in BER ;O) LOL

Any comments on eggshells? I've got a lot ground up in my soil. It
would seem the calcium release would be slow, probably too slow.

Jeff

Slow, that's the word.


--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

wrote in message
...

"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

Just how much more can one do?
Not to be too terribly contrarian here, but you've done everything
except the very _first_ thing to do when you notice symtoms of mineral
imbalance: Check and correct soil pH! Second to water, pH is the major
determinant of nutrients' availability to plants. In my view, the first
course of action when signs of chronic mineral deprivation should be to
adjust pH to neutral-to-mildly-acidic (7.0-6.5, say) and keep it there
for at least 3-to-4 days -- preferrably a week -- before doing any
further soil tests or adding amendments. Remember to adjust the water in
which you place your soil sample to pH neutral and, while you're at it,
check the pH of your irrigation water. Certainly don't simply
gratuitously add stuff to the dirt ;-)

Soil pH tests 6.6 and my tap water tests 7.8.

You're finding out the hard way that nutrient and mineral
deficiencies are more easily prevented than corrected because most (but
not all) "organic" and/or "natural" sources of nutrients are relatively
low-proof and slow-release. However, to directly address your present
dilemma this site,
http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/95/4/571 -- cited
elsewhere in this thread -- along with advocacy of further investigation
into minimum levels of Ca relative to BER and of research into genetic
predisposition to BER, offers this recommendation (although, it provides
no evidence of efficacy):

...increasing the apoplastic Ca concentration in susceptible fruit tissue
should provide a
simple and reliable, practical solution for the prevention of BER in
tomatoes. It is
suggested that current horticultural practices, such as the manipulation
of the mineral
composition of the feed or the growth environment, are not completely
effective in
reducing BER because they affect apoplastic Ca concentration in fruit
tissue indirectly.
Therefore, spraying Ca directly onto young fruits is recommended for the
prevention of
BER.
I have seen liquid preparations offered as foliar spray Ca
supplements but have never noted their constituents. I assume the
calcium is present in an ionic form that migrates easily through foliar
and/or fruit cell walls but you never know.... It might be time to
retire to a garden center and read some labels.

I got this product called Foli-Cal. It is calcium acetate. The garden
center recommended it. I mixed it up according to instructions and doused
each plant with 16 ounces. Then I got the BER a week later. So today I
mixed up a batch and watered the roots with the mix.

Paul

In article ,
Jeff Thies wrote:

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Jeff Thies" wrote in message
...
Jeff Thies wrote:
Paul M. Cook wrote:
So I added calcium to the soil, I used fish emulsion fertilizer
I don't think this is the right fertilizer for tomatoes (although it is
what I in my ignorance used), it has too much nitrogen. It's something
like 511.

I found this:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/...ing_plus/73178

So, the fish fert may not be your cause, but it does not help and may
indeed hurt.

Jeff

and I
sprayed the leaves with calcium water.
http://pubs.caes.uga.edu/caespubs/pubs/PDF/C938.pdf


Although some people believe foliar sprays can correct Ca deficiency in
developing fruits, research is very inconclusive on this issue. What is
well known is that Ca only moves in the plant via the xylem and moves with
the transpirational water flow from the roots, up the plant and into
developing leaves. Calcium has no ability to flow from the leaves via the
phloem to the developing fruit. In addition, once fruit has grown to golf
ball size, the waxy outer layer has developed and is believed to be quite
impermeable to water. Therefore, it is recommended that all Ca supplied to
fruiting vegetables be applied via the irrigation water so as to maximize
uptake by roots


Sigh. I was using the fish emulsion as it was recommended. I posted
earlier about using the foliar spray as irrigation water and was told it
was
less effective that way. So what the heck, I will add it to the irrigation
water. I try to keep the soil from drying out. My pots get a gallon of
water a day and if I do not water in the morning I get a little wilt by
afternoon. This whole uniform water has me puzzled. I mean those plants
do
grow in the wild

Not so sure about that. The wild tomato is a completely different
vegetable than what we grow.

and surely a consistently moist soil is not something they
enjoy. I can see BER is more of a challenge in container gardening.

I don't know that much about container gardening. I have noticed that
being in a container loses the moisture tempering of being in ground.
I've seen both standing water in containers and containers that were
completely dry, even though it had been raining for days not long
before. Soil and drainage is much more critical in containers, it is
also much easier to control.

To make the whole BER thing more complex, it appears that calcium can
be displaced by other ions or cations that may be in your soil. So, you
may not have good tomato soil without ever knowing it.

Jeff

Paul



And to add to the confusion;O) a foliar spray of epsom salts may
increase calcium absorption, if the plant has a Mg++ deficiency.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:


How about just sticking some calcium tablets into the soil? I don't need
25
pounds of lime just for my few pots.

Paul

Well I'd guess that the calcium tablets about 6 oz. might cost close
to 25 lb. of dolomite and the lime won't go bad.
Growing with containers looks like small mistakes in the garden are
focused or easier to make. I try to get stuff out of pots and into the
ground then back into a pot if it is a houseplant late fall.


Hmmm ... how much dolomite should I add to a 22 inch pot with 2 cubic feet
of soil? Or does it matter? I mean the plant will take it up as needed.
Can you overdose?

Paul

Was this dirt, shoveled into pots, or did you use potting soil? If it
was potting soil, that won't be the problem. If it was dirt, then call
the local Master Gardener, or the UC Ag Extension near you, and ask
about local soil.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:


How about just sticking some calcium tablets into the soil? I don't
need
25
pounds of lime just for my few pots.

Paul

Well I'd guess that the calcium tablets about 6 oz. might cost close
to 25 lb. of dolomite and the lime won't go bad.
Growing with containers looks like small mistakes in the garden are
focused or easier to make. I try to get stuff out of pots and into the
ground then back into a pot if it is a houseplant late fall.


Hmmm ... how much dolomite should I add to a 22 inch pot with 2 cubic
feet
of soil? Or does it matter? I mean the plant will take it up as needed.
Can you overdose?

Paul

Was this dirt, shoveled into pots, or did you use potting soil? If it
was potting soil, that won't be the problem. If it was dirt, then call
the local Master Gardener, or the UC Ag Extension near you, and ask
about local soil.
--

It is Sta-Green vegetable and flower planting mix. It has chunks of white
calcium bits still in it so I am surprised. I was told this mix was a long
lasting blend.

Paul

Paul M. Cook wrote:
"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:


How about just sticking some calcium tablets into the soil? I
don't need 25
pounds of lime just for my few pots.

Paul

Well I'd guess that the calcium tablets about 6 oz. might cost
close to 25 lb. of dolomite and the lime won't go bad.
Growing with containers looks like small mistakes in the garden are
focused or easier to make. I try to get stuff out of pots and into
the ground then back into a pot if it is a houseplant late fall.


Hmmm ... how much dolomite should I add to a 22 inch pot with 2 cubic
feet of soil? Or does it matter? I mean the plant will take it up
as needed. Can you overdose?

Paul


You can overdose because dolomite will raise the pH, so it would be good to
know the pH before you start. For tomatoes you are looking for pH about 6
to 6.5 IIRC. I would try about half a cup. It isn't very soluble so it
will take a while to work.

David

In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:


How about just sticking some calcium tablets into the soil? I don't
need
25
pounds of lime just for my few pots.

Paul

Well I'd guess that the calcium tablets about 6 oz. might cost close
to 25 lb. of dolomite and the lime won't go bad.
Growing with containers looks like small mistakes in the garden are
focused or easier to make. I try to get stuff out of pots and into the
ground then back into a pot if it is a houseplant late fall.


Hmmm ... how much dolomite should I add to a 22 inch pot with 2 cubic
feet
of soil? Or does it matter? I mean the plant will take it up as needed.
Can you overdose?

Paul

Was this dirt, shoveled into pots, or did you use potting soil? If it
was potting soil, that won't be the problem. If it was dirt, then call
the local Master Gardener, or the UC Ag Extension near you, and ask
about local soil.
--

It is Sta-Green vegetable and flower planting mix. It has chunks of white
calcium bits still in it so I am surprised. I was told this mix was a long
lasting blend.

Paul
Then I would say it was over watered, and the calcium was leached out.
Water when the soil is dry to the top inch.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

David Hare-Scott said:


Paul M. Cook wrote:

Hmmm ... how much dolomite should I add to a 22 inch pot with 2 cubic
feet of soil? Or does it matter? I mean the plant will take it up
as needed. Can you overdose?

Paul


You can overdose because dolomite will raise the pH, so it would be good to
know the pH before you start. For tomatoes you are looking for pH about 6
to 6.5 IIRC. I would try about half a cup. It isn't very soluble so it
will take a while to work.

Gypsum will add calcium without shifting the pH.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Vegetables are like bombs packed tight with all kinds of important
nutrients..." --Largo Potter, Valkyria Chronicles

email valid but not regularly monitored

Paul M. Cook said:


I'll probably stick to patio from now on.

Yes, varieties that were developed for growing in pots would be your
best bet.


--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Vegetables are like bombs packed tight with all kinds of important
nutrients..." --Largo Potter, Valkyria Chronicles

email valid but not regularly monitored

"Bill who putters" wrote
I've sort of gleaned from "Teaming with Microbes" a Billy heads up
that my soil favors fungi and the bacteria are trying to obtain a
balance of sort. ( Poor humanoid attempt to understand life) .
Just in the last two days small 1/8 inch round fungi brown and Red
appears on my wood chips and on my raised bed. I smashed the red for no
other reason As I equate it with poison.

Nah, go for the brown ones. Some common brown wood-rotting mushrooms are
deadly poisonous, but I can't think of a single red one. But are you saying
a fungus that's growing on wood is also growing in the soil of your garden
bed? Are there wood chips there or is there a lot of wood content in the
soil? Wood-rotting fungi never grow on anything but wood. Either way, what
you may actually have is a slime mold. Some of them will climb over just
about anything in the yard.

Jeff Thies said:


Pat Kiewicz wrote:

If you have a layer of gravel at the bottom of the pots "for drainage"
stop
doing that.

Why is that?

Using gravel wastes space that could be filled with soil and roots, and it
doesn't improve the drainage at all. The potting soil just above the gravel
will be the most saturated part of the pot. It's all down to surface tension.
The water doesn't drain out of the soil into the gravel until the entire bulk
of the soil is over-saturated.

The pot should have a drainage hole to allow excess water to drain and that
will be sufficient.

http://www.dannylipford.com/diy-home...ment/lawn-and-
gardening/garden-myth-putting-gravel-in-pots-and-containers/

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Vegetables are like bombs packed tight with all kinds of important
nutrients..." --Largo Potter, Valkyria Chronicles

email valid but not regularly monitored

In article ,
"Nelly Wensdow" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote
I've sort of gleaned from "Teaming with Microbes" a Billy heads up
that my soil favors fungi and the bacteria are trying to obtain a
balance of sort. ( Poor humanoid attempt to understand life) .
Just in the last two days small 1/8 inch round fungi brown and Red
appears on my wood chips and on my raised bed. I smashed the red for no
other reason As I equate it with poison.

Nah, go for the brown ones. Some common brown wood-rotting mushrooms are
deadly poisonous, but I can't think of a single red one. But are you saying
a fungus that's growing on wood is also growing in the soil of your garden
bed?

Small area about 1 foot square.

Are there wood chips there or is there a lot of wood content in the
soil?

No chips but rotten wood chips turned into soil about 5 years old.

Wood-rotting fungi never grow on anything but wood.

Good news!

Either way, what
you may actually have is a slime mold. Some of them will climb over just
about anything in the yard.

Don't know but found this URL below .

PS

I live in a place that has a high water table currenty 13 feet below
the surface and we have a dew point of 70 F. today.

http://people.wku.edu/charles.smith/biogeog/BISB1943.htm

"DISTRIBUTION OF FUNGI PARASITIC ON CROP PLANTS
****It is scarcely necessary to discuss in detail the distribution of
crop diseases. Maps are now being published (24) showing the range of
many. Man has been very active in assisting nature; for example,
asparagus rust was enabled to establish itself from New Jersey to
California in five years.
****A few pathogens are worthy of mention because they seem to
illustrate principles. Puccinia Antirrhini, the rust of snapdragons, is
native to a few wild Scrophulariaceae in the mountains of California.
Soon after Antirrhinum majus was introduced there it was attacked and
proved to be a very congenial host; the rust spread on snapdragons
throughout the United States and Canada, and now occurs over much of
Europe and in Egypt, Palestine and South Africa.
****The original host of Synchytrium endobioticum, the cause of wart
disease of potatoes, is not known. Potatoes were in general culture in
Europe for about 150 years (35) before the fungus was described on them
in 1896. It then spread over northern Europe and reached Newfoundland
and South Africa, but its late start permitted prevention of its spread
over North America.
****Spongospora subterranea, another parasite of the potato, has been
known for a century. It has spread far. Considerable alarm was felt in
North America after it was first found in Canada in 1913, but subsequent
experience demonstrated that climate almost limits it to cool regions
such as those near the United States-Canada boundary in the east and
west. The fungus seems to be unimportant, except perhaps at high
altitudes, in Asia, Africa and South America. Possibly a consideration
of the effect of climate on this and other pathogenic fungi would permit
some modification of the elaborate quarantine and inspection regulations
imposed by most [[p. 480]] countries. Unfortunately, we do not yet know
how much faith to place in climate. Can we be sure that Claviceps
purpurea will not develop in the tropics, and only in Algeria and
Morocco in Africa?
****Cronartium ribicola has now spread over most north temperate regions
where its hosts grow, Ribes and five-needle pines in association. The
same is true of many another parasite of economic plants.


*********In other words, the host is of primary importance in
dissemination of parasites. It would be hard to stop nature and man in
their efforts to spread pathogens, were it not that climatic and other
factors are also important, and may hinder as well as favor
spread."*********

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
http://ocg6.marine.usf.edu/~liu/Drif...atest_roms.htm

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:

"Bill who putters" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Paul M. Cook" wrote:


How about just sticking some calcium tablets into the soil? I
don't
need
25
pounds of lime just for my few pots.

Paul

Well I'd guess that the calcium tablets about 6 oz. might cost
close
to 25 lb. of dolomite and the lime won't go bad.
Growing with containers looks like small mistakes in the garden are
focused or easier to make. I try to get stuff out of pots and into
the
ground then back into a pot if it is a houseplant late fall.


Hmmm ... how much dolomite should I add to a 22 inch pot with 2 cubic
feet
of soil? Or does it matter? I mean the plant will take it up as
needed.
Can you overdose?

Paul

Was this dirt, shoveled into pots, or did you use potting soil? If it
was potting soil, that won't be the problem. If it was dirt, then call
the local Master Gardener, or the UC Ag Extension near you, and ask
about local soil.
--

It is Sta-Green vegetable and flower planting mix. It has chunks of
white
calcium bits still in it so I am surprised. I was told this mix was a
long
lasting blend.

Paul
Then I would say it was over watered, and the calcium was leached out.
Water when the soil is dry to the top inch.

I water daily because the plants suck up all the water during the day. They
are not overwatered. I water just until I see a little seapage from the
bottom of the pots. Big plants, warm and breezy days mean a lot of
transpiration.

Paul