In article
Fran Farmer writes:
On 14/07/2014 10:41 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Fran Farmer writes:

In addition tourists gripe where tips are expected to be handed over
after any form of service provision. Employers who expect customers to
pay for both goods received and then service provided by their employee
rather than them pay a proper wage are considered to be exploitative.

I forget where, but I read an interesting article a month or three
back on tipping. Turns out that when it started, many US states
considered it so vulgar that there were laws prohibiting it.

LOL. If you ever recall where you read that, could you post a link to
it please? Given your use of the word 'vulgar' did you get the sense
from the article that there was class related objection to tipping?

I can't find a trace of it. It was probably a link fed to me by
google news or such. My memory of that article was that it was
seen much as having employees begging from the customers.

This excerpt from the book Tipping suggests that it was seen as
bribery:

http://books.google.com/books?id=PJf...page&q&f=false

I don't mind tipping food/drink servers because I am used to it.
I'm less clear on all the other variations -- cabs, bellmen, etc.

If it worked, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But the truth of the
situation is a big assortment of disfunctions -- jerks tip small,
happy people with the money tip more, the waitress with bigger boobs
gets bigger tips, etc.

--
|Drew Lawson | If you're not part of the solution |
| | you're part of the precipitate. |

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:59:03 AM UTC-7, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article

Fran Farmer writes:

On 14/07/2014 10:41 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

In article

Fran Farmer writes:



In addition tourists gripe where tips are expected to be handed over

after any form of service provision. Employers who expect customers to

pay for both goods received and then service provided by their employee

rather than them pay a proper wage are considered to be exploitative.

How about those cruises & trips (not my cuppa) where one is EXPECTED to pay "gratuities" of 'n' $ per day!! Way to not scare off customers by quoting all-inclusive price. This is one of the big hates of tour travelers.


I don't mind tipping food/drink servers because I am used to it.

You do something because you're used to it? That could be extrapolated in all kinds of directions. "The unexamined life is not worth living." g Socrates. Not necessarily my favorite person -- see "The Trial of Socrates" by I.F. Stone, but he did have some pithy one-liners.

I'm less clear on all the other variations -- cabs, bellmen, etc.

Why? They all depend on tips because the *&^^$#( society is structured that way.

If it worked, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But the truth of the

situation is a big assortment of disfunctions -- jerks tip small,

happy people with the money tip more, the waitress with bigger boobs

gets bigger tips, etc.

Actually, poorer people tip more because they know what it's like to work hard for shit wages.
Probably true about the large, undefined category of "jerks".
Typical male response about morphology of waitresses.
No attempt to at least project tipping philosophy of female customers.


But your .sig is cute.

HB

On 07/14/2014 09:25 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 15/07/2014 2:59 AM, Frank wrote:
On 7/14/2014 11:24 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 7/14/2014 4:53 AM, Frank wrote:
On 7/13/2014 8:11 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 13/07/2014 3:21 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Saturday, July 12, 2014 8:07:28 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:



It is very painful to have lived through better times and see one's
beloved country losing its soul.

I know exactly what you mean. You can at least take comfort in
knowing
that at least the residents of your country can manage to elect a
President who seems like a decent human being. Sad tough about all
the
vitriolic comments that are sent his way - no doubt due to him dusky
skin colour and the red colour of the necks of those who make such
comments.

You should see the creep we have heading up our country at the moment,
and none of his hangers on seem to be any better. I never used to
feel
ashamed of my country but increasingly that is how I am feeling.

Yup:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/BNRT0P-oZfw#t=39


Yup????

I believe Fran Farmer is in Australia and commenting about Tony Abbott,
the Prime Minister.


She's still coming from the left.

Only to someone on the US right.

I'm from a very long term middling position. Some issues I am extremely
right wing but generally I hold a middle position and some issues I am
very left wing.

I'm what is known in this country as a 'swinging voter'- that means
that I'm not committed to any one party at any particular election and
I'm the sort of voter that is wooed by all in order to secure my vote.
Swinging voters make up about a third of the electorate and it is the
vote of swinging voters whose changing votes results in losses or wins
for those who seek to rule the country. I've voted right, far right
(but a long time ago when even our far right was less right then our
current middle), middle and left. Our current PM and his whole
government is extreme right wing and would get your vote.

But of course politics here is always far more left wing than that of
your country at any point in the past 4 or 5 decades.


Hi Fran,

One of the techniques Socialists (they call themselves Liberals) use
in this country to attack conservatives is to identify themselves
as conservatives to establish their credentials, then proceed to
trash whatever parts of the conservative movement they don't
like. They stick out like a sore thumb as what they proceed to
say are usually Socialist talking points and they display very
little knowledge of the actual conservative movement. It is quit
disingenuous.

I do believe you are doing the same thing. I say this because
your made the point about how much more your electorate leans left
than they do in the States. You then point out how extreme the
right wing current elected government is. This sticks out like
a sore thumb. If the current government was so far right extreme
and the electorate so left wing, the current government would
have never won a majority in the elections.

The current government made their case to the electorate an
the electorate agreed with it. So, if the current government
is extreme right wing, so are the electorate.

-T

In article
Higgs Boson writes:
On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 7:59:03 AM UTC-7, Drew Lawson wrote:

I don't mind tipping food/drink servers because I am used to it.

You do something because you're used to it?

The culture I live in has many short comings and many customs that
I disagree with. I do not mind so much the one that I am familiar
with, because I know what is expected. If I want to go out to a
US restaurant, I know that tipping is exected, and that is part of
the decision whether to go.


I'm less clear on all the other variations -- cabs, bellmen, etc.

Why? They all depend on tips because the *&^^$#( society is structured that way.

I am less clear on them because I am a creature of the suburban
sprawl. I am 52 years old and have probably taken fewer than 6 cab
rides in my life.

If it worked, I wouldn't be bothered by it. But the truth of the
situation is a big assortment of disfunctions -- jerks tip small,
happy people with the money tip more, the waitress with bigger boobs
gets bigger tips, etc.

Actually, poorer people tip more because they know what it's like
to work hard for shit wages.

I chose "with the money" intentionally. You can't give what you
don't have. Dinner out after getting a bonus may well have me
tipping more than usual because I can and life feels good.

I like to think I tip well, and the reason behind it is that I know
wait staff work harder than I do sitting in my cubical. I've had
some other tech workers take issue when I've voiced that opinion
(while they are working out the tip with calculators).

Probably true about the large, undefined category of "jerks".

I'm not sure what this means.

Typical male response about morphology of waitresses.

Do you mean the tipping, or my comment?
I can only speak for myself, but I know after several beers at the
pub that unfair detail can make the difference between a good tip
and a great one. (It makes more sense after several beers.)

My step-daughter has waited tables a lot. Her reports are that a
lower cut top makes for better take-home. (The same held when she
was selling cars, not that was tip related.)

No attempt to at least project tipping philosophy of female customers.

Again, I'm uncertain what this means.


But your .sig is cute.

HB


--
Drew Lawson | Pass the tea and sympathy
| for he good old days are dead
| Let's raise a toast to those
| who best survived the life they led

Todd writes:

One of the techniques Socialists (they call themselves Liberals) use
in this country to attack conservatives is to identify themselves
as conservatives to establish their credentials, then proceed to
trash whatever parts of the conservative movement they don't
like.

Hi Todd!

Well, your off topic idiocy has garnered you membership in one
more kill file.

I'm sure this is beyond you, but this is "rec.gardens".
Don't bother with "I didn't start it".
Anyone with a brain isn't listening any more.
Wasn't very smart of me to wait this long.

--
Dan Espen

On 07/15/2014 12:35 PM, Dan Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

One of the techniques Socialists (they call themselves Liberals) use
in this country to attack conservatives is to identify themselves
as conservatives to establish their credentials, then proceed to
trash whatever parts of the conservative movement they don't
like.

Hi Todd!

Well, your off topic idiocy has garnered you membership in one
more kill file.

I'm sure this is beyond you, but this is "rec.gardens".
Don't bother with "I didn't start it".
Anyone with a brain isn't listening any more.
Wasn't very smart of me to wait this long.


Sorry to see you go.

David E. Ross wrote:
On 7/14/2014 5:30 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
"David E. Ross" writes:

Almost a month ago, I added Todd to my filters on this newsgroup, to
mark all of his messages as deleted.

I've been tempted, but he still has some mild amusement value.

I'm an old-fart and still read news with trn, so I see a list of
participants before selecting a thread. When I see Todd listed, I
go in with "what is he going to come up with now?" filters running.
(There are others here and there with similar expectations.)


I might be an even older fart (less than a month away from turning
73). My doctor has me on medication for high blood pressure. I
filter Todd because I don't want to counteract my meds.

--

For me, he is now filtered for a few months and Higgs will join him if there
is not self control evident soon. Anyway let's get back to gardens.

David

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
A better world requires a daily struggle
against those who would mislead us.

David Harebrained wrote:

For me, he is now filtered for a few months and Higgs
will join him if there is not self control evident soon.

Anyway let's get back to gardens.

Don't see you making any attempt, you just keep provoking them,
you are who needs to exercise self control.

My veggie garden just started about three weeks ago:
http://i59.tinypic.com/2qso58h.jpg

Back lawn freshly mowed:
http://i62.tinypic.com/2zic8bl.jpg

Front lawn freshly mowed:
http://i60.tinypic.com/mvrpz9.jpg

Three wise Fat Alberts:
http://i60.tinypic.com/24pctg5.jpg

Apple moocher:
http://i61.tinypic.com/x23xps.jpg

Apple moocher bedding down for the night:
http://i62.tinypic.com/300r8dj.jpg

Barney the rescued barn cat:
http://i61.tinypic.com/vo0pk9.jpg

Cali, Barney's sister:
http://i58.tinypic.com/2irn2ts.jpg

Barn cats are tough:
http://i59.tinypic.com/1564fb8.jpg

My Jilly, the Mensa cat:
http://i60.tinypic.com/2wgvjt1.jpg

Wonderful big old farm house on five acres will be auctioned 7/22,
great piece of land for gardening, has a lovely pond, and a
spectacular view of the Catskills, half mile down the road from me:
http://i58.tinypic.com/azgabt.jpg

Todd said:
On 07/15/2014 12:35 PM, Dan Espen wrote:
Todd writes:

One of the techniques Socialists (they call themselves Liberals) use
in this country to attack conservatives is to identify themselves
as conservatives to establish their credentials, then proceed to
trash whatever parts of the conservative movement they don't
like.

Hi Todd!

Well, your off topic idiocy has garnered you membership in one
more kill file.


Sorry to see you go.

Do you not comprehend how a kill file works?

Dan kill-filing you has nothing to do with his continuing participation in this
news group or with you being able to see his posts. It means he won't
see yours.

Regarding rabbits, I believe I managed to trap and exile the one that had
been giving me fits by biting through the base of my Oriental and Orienpet
lilies to get to the flowers and foliage on top. Live trap baited with apples
worked within hours of setting it out!

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Yes, swooping is bad."

email valid but not regularly monitored

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:24:22 AM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
David Harebrained wrote:



For me, he is now filtered for a few months and Higgs

will join him if there is not self control evident soon.


Oooohhhh! (SFX) terrified sobbing.

HB



Anyway let's get back to gardens.



Don't see you making any attempt, you just keep provoking them,

you are who needs to exercise self control.



My veggie garden just started about three weeks ago:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2qso58h.jpg



Back lawn freshly mowed:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2zic8bl.jpg



Front lawn freshly mowed:

http://i60.tinypic.com/mvrpz9.jpg



Three wise Fat Alberts:

http://i60.tinypic.com/24pctg5.jpg



Apple moocher:

http://i61.tinypic.com/x23xps.jpg



Apple moocher bedding down for the night:

http://i62.tinypic.com/300r8dj.jpg



Barney the rescued barn cat:

http://i61.tinypic.com/vo0pk9.jpg



Cali, Barney's sister:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2irn2ts.jpg



Barn cats are tough:

http://i59.tinypic.com/1564fb8.jpg



My Jilly, the Mensa cat:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2wgvjt1.jpg



Wonderful big old farm house on five acres will be auctioned 7/22,

great piece of land for gardening, has a lovely pond, and a

spectacular view of the Catskills, half mile down the road from me:

http://i58.tinypic.com/azgabt.jpg

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:24:22 AM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
David Harebrained wrote:



For me, he is now filtered for a few months and Higgs

will join him if there is not self control evident soon.



Anyway let's get back to gardens.



Don't see you making any attempt, you just keep provoking them,

you are who needs to exercise self control.

Careful! We do not know the scope of his power!

My veggie garden just started about three weeks ago:

http://i59.tinypic.com/2qso58h.jpg

Back lawn freshly mowed:

http://i62.tinypic.com/2zic8bl.jpg



Front lawn freshly mowed:

http://i60.tinypic.com/mvrpz9.jpg



Three wise Fat Alberts:

http://i60.tinypic.com/24pctg5.jpg



Apple moocher:

http://i61.tinypic.com/x23xps.jpg



Apple moocher bedding down for the night:

http://i62.tinypic.com/300r8dj.jpg



Barney the rescued barn cat:

http://i61.tinypic.com/vo0pk9.jpg



Cali, Barney's sister:

http://i58.tinypic.com/2irn2ts.jpg



Barn cats are tough:

http://i59.tinypic.com/1564fb8.jpg



My Jilly, the Mensa cat:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2wgvjt1.jpg

You have a Mensa cat??!!! Tell - how does she actually manifest her IQ!

My Pericles does little except eat, sleep, check up on all visitors, and jump into my lap when I'm trying to read out on the patio.

He DOES have a sort of motional eating disorder: He can have a full dish of food, but nooooo! He has to jump on my computer keyboard, bulk up against the screen, until I give in, escort him to the kitchen, dribble a few
more bits into the dish, and voila! Monsieur est servi!

Sigh! Whoever coined the term "cat owners"...Hah!


Wonderful big old farm house on five acres will be auctioned 7/22,

great piece of land for gardening, has a lovely pond, and a

spectacular view of the Catskills, half mile down the road from me:

http://i58.tinypic.com/azgabt.jpg

You gonna bid?

Absolutely LOVED the illustrated progress report!

Now send some of that rain here! We risk a $500 fine if caught misusing water
in various ways.

HB

On 07/16/2014 07:24 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Todd said:
On 07/15/2014 12:35 PM, Dan Espen wrote:

Hi Todd!

Well, your off topic idiocy has garnered you membership in one
more kill file.


Sorry to see you go.

Do you not comprehend how a kill file works?

Sure. Sometimes folks will give it a day or look at Google
to see how you respond.


Dan kill-filing you has nothing to do with his continuing participation in this
news group or with you being able to see his posts. It means he won't
see yours.

I know. Doesn't mean he won't peek.

I also think it is good for other people to see how I respond.

It is probably best that he kill files me anyway. He gets
offended by alternative viewpoints (doesn't stop him from
expressing his). He doesn't see debate as great fun and a
chance to learn what others of different viewpoints think.

Regarding rabbits, I believe I managed to trap and exile the one that had
been giving me fits by biting through the base of my Oriental and Orienpet
lilies to get to the flowers and foliage on top. Live trap baited with apples
worked within hours of setting it out!

Excellent. Thank you! Love the apple tip.

Still haven't seen any sign out the cute little feller
for days now.

Had a frog last year in my garden. He got the king's
treatment. Made sure he had all the water he wanted.

-T

On 07/16/2014 09:20 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
Careful! We do not know the scope of his power!


Hi Higgs,

Thank to you and your great powers, my investment in
future Nevada beach front property is not panning out!

Eventually you will get tired and California WILL fall
into the ocean (oh, the pollution!). Then I will be
filthy stinkin' RICH! YOUR POWERS ARE NOT UNLIMITED!!!

:-)

-T

I wonder if anyone will think I was not kidding?

Trade you Clark County for Alpine County!

On 07/16/2014 07:24 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:
Sorry to see you go.
Do you not comprehend how a kill file works?

Dan kill-filing you has nothing to do with his continuing participation in this
news group or with you being able to see his posts. It means he won't
see yours.

Hi Pat,

Dan just did see it. When you quote someone that is in
someone else's killfile, the killfiler still sees it
because the message did not come from the person in
the kill file.

-T

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 12:20:04 PM UTC-4, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:24:22 AM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:

David Harebrained wrote:







For me, he is now filtered for a few months and Higgs



will join him if there is not self control evident soon.







Anyway let's get back to gardens.







Don't see you making any attempt, you just keep provoking them,



you are who needs to exercise self control.



Careful! We do not know the scope of his power!



My veggie garden just started about three weeks ago:



http://i59.tinypic.com/2qso58h.jpg



Back lawn freshly mowed:



http://i62.tinypic.com/2zic8bl.jpg







Front lawn freshly mowed:



http://i60.tinypic.com/mvrpz9.jpg







Three wise Fat Alberts:



http://i60.tinypic.com/24pctg5.jpg







Apple moocher:



http://i61.tinypic.com/x23xps.jpg







Apple moocher bedding down for the night:



http://i62.tinypic.com/300r8dj.jpg







Barney the rescued barn cat:



http://i61.tinypic.com/vo0pk9.jpg







Cali, Barney's sister:



http://i58.tinypic.com/2irn2ts.jpg







Barn cats are tough:



http://i59.tinypic.com/1564fb8.jpg







My Jilly, the Mensa cat:



http://i60.tinypic.com/2wgvjt1.jpg



You have a Mensa cat??!!! Tell - how does she actually manifest her IQ!



My Pericles does little except eat, sleep, check up on all visitors, and jump into my lap when I'm trying to read out on the patio.



He DOES have a sort of motional eating disorder: He can have a full dish of food, but nooooo! He has to jump on my computer keyboard, bulk up against the screen, until I give in, escort him to the kitchen, dribble a few

more bits into the dish, and voila! Monsieur est servi!



Sigh! Whoever coined the term "cat owners"...Hah!





Wonderful big old farm house on five acres will be auctioned 7/22,



great piece of land for gardening, has a lovely pond, and a



spectacular view of the Catskills, half mile down the road from me:



http://i58.tinypic.com/azgabt.jpg



You gonna bid?



Absolutely LOVED the illustrated progress report!



Now send some of that rain here! We risk a $500 fine if caught misusing water

in various ways.



HB

There's a great old quote supposedly from Sir Winston Churchill That goes something like this: I like pigs, dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals.