On 05 Jul 2003 21:58:24 GMT, (CpRensCoNY) wrote:

(...)

Nicotine, arsenic and copper sulphate were
favored for years.

(...)

Okay, lets take nicotine. It is no longer, and hasn't been for years now, any
part of an organic gardeners arsenal unless you count "America's Master
Gardener" Jerry Baker, an organic gardener.

No form of nicotine is tolerable in a certified organic program, nor is arsenic.

Nobody was berating the original poster, but the chemical companies which give
people this fuzzy feeling that it's safe to use this or that.

In my garden, I haven't used much more than compost tea (now aerobic, thanks
Tom) and possibly orange oil, but not in two years. Oh, I do use boric acid for
ants IN the house in a bait with mint jelly.

I don't know what your organic gardener friends are telling you, but they may
need to re-up on the latest information.

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:58:26 GMT, animaux
wrote:

Nobody was berating the original poster, but the chemical companies which give
people this fuzzy feeling that it's safe to use this or that.

I rather imagine that the original poster might see Beecrofter's
response, along with your "standing ovation" reply, as disparaging
toward him.

deg

Dewitt wrote in message . ..
On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:58:26 GMT, animaux
wrote:

Nobody was berating the original poster, but the chemical companies which give
people this fuzzy feeling that it's safe to use this or that.

I rather imagine that the original poster might see Beecrofter's
response, along with your "standing ovation" reply, as disparaging
toward him.

deg

You have to consider how much pesticide is misapplied and how little
information the original poster provided with his question.
Since he can't see me jumping up and down on my desk screaming read
the label some other form of emphasis was required.
For pesticide application the label is a matter of federal law,
malathion is not soapsuds but an organophosphate whose very existance
is a result of Nazi nerve gas research.
Ultrafine horticultural oil applied to smother adults and reapplied to
take out any crawlers about a week later would be a better and safer
choice for a scale problem and even then you still have to read the
label.

Beecrofter wrote:

Dewitt wrote in message . ..

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:58:26 GMT, animaux
wrote:


Nobody was berating the original poster, but the chemical companies which give
people this fuzzy feeling that it's safe to use this or that.

I rather imagine that the original poster might see Beecrofter's
response, along with your "standing ovation" reply, as disparaging
toward him.

deg


You have to consider how much pesticide is misapplied and how little
information the original poster provided with his question.
Since he can't see me jumping up and down on my desk screaming read
the label some other form of emphasis was required.
For pesticide application the label is a matter of federal law,
malathion is not soapsuds but an organophosphate whose very existance
is a result of Nazi nerve gas research.
Ultrafine horticultural oil applied to smother adults and reapplied to
take out any crawlers about a week later would be a better and safer
choice for a scale problem and even then you still have to read the
label.

So you think the malathion label is gonna say to use horticultural oil to
control scale (and mealy bugs)? If not, how was your reply appropriate?

It's amazing how Nazis *always* come up eventually.

Bob

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:08:04 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

It's amazing how Nazis *always* come up eventually.


Especially when much of the research was done right here in the USA!!!

On 6 Jul 2003 17:32:50 -0700, (Beecrofter) wrote:

You have to consider how much pesticide is misapplied and how little
information the original poster provided with his question.
Since he can't see me jumping up and down on my desk screaming read
the label some other form of emphasis was required.
For pesticide application the label is a matter of federal law,
malathion is not soapsuds but an organophosphate whose very existance
is a result of Nazi nerve gas research.
Ultrafine horticultural oil applied to smother adults and reapplied to
take out any crawlers about a week later would be a better and safer
choice for a scale problem and even then you still have to read the
label.

I realize that it is fustrating to see so many similar questions, but
it's important to remember that it's not the same person asking the
question each time. The original poster's question seems to be
sincere even though it indicates a lack of knowledge concerning
pesticides. Such questions provide an opportunity to educate people
on the proper use of pesticides and the alternatives. Berating them
simply teaches them and other not to ask questions in the future,
which is definitely not a desirable result.

deg

"....... read the label ...."

Not always possible, I left a bottle outside one night and the label was
almost removed by slugs, luckily I knew the product, also have growth
retardant with instructions on separate leaflet held around the bottles neck
by a rubber band. easily lost as the contents should last me around 10
years.
Now I always write quantity req. on container with a felt tip pen.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 18:27:41 GMT, Dewitt wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 17:58:26 GMT, animaux
wrote:

Nobody was berating the original poster, but the chemical companies which give
people this fuzzy feeling that it's safe to use this or that.

I rather imagine that the original poster might see Beecrofter's
response, along with your "standing ovation" reply, as disparaging
toward him.

deg

Now I'm crying.

On 6 Jul 2003 17:32:50 -0700, (Beecrofter) wrote:

You have to consider how much pesticide is misapplied and how little
information the original poster provided with his question.
Since he can't see me jumping up and down on my desk screaming read
the label some other form of emphasis was required.
For pesticide application the label is a matter of federal law,
malathion is not soapsuds but an organophosphate whose very existance
is a result of Nazi nerve gas research.
Ultrafine horticultural oil applied to smother adults and reapplied to
take out any crawlers about a week later would be a better and safer
choice for a scale problem and even then you still have to read the
label.

The part which has me baffled is that, this is the year 2003. A year and a time
in history where these facts of toxicity are in every day language, both in
print, film, television, and any other forum where language is used to
communicate.

I think (a dangerous thing when I'm cranky) I've become extremely comfortable,
bordering spoiled, having lived in Texas for ten years. Although we certainly
have our goobers going at all times, full blast, we do have a tremendous
organic/nature based community. Of all places in Texas, I believe (not command
or indicate) Austin being the most culturally diverse.

We have many, many organic garden centers who specialize in native plants. They
compete pretty heavily with one another for the varieties and we happen to have
a great Cooperative Extension Agent in Skip Richter. He is always notifying the
public around here and his selections for plant of the week in the garden
section of the newspaper and on Central Texas Gardener PBS show are usually
always native to this particular part of the state. He is also quite
responsible for getting the word out about using much less harsh measures and
promoting some tolerance for minimal damage in a natural way.

When I read posts where people are asking other people how to apply an
organophosphate, my head almost explodes (!!!) followed by READ THE LABEL.

I cannot imagine anyone in that dire a situation where they have to use
anything as strong as an organophosphate. This is not to say that pyrethrum or
rotenone or any number of organic/natural or biological methods of insect pest
control are non-toxic. Many are, most are not. There is no debate by me.

Nicotine is no longer in the arsenal for organic gardeners who use the standards
put together by the Dept. of Ag. in this state which certifies organic farms or
growers' properties based on their acceptable lists of materials.

HOWEVER, the impact pyrethrum has on the soil biota, and macro organisms along
with mammals and other life forms is possibly to the tenth (wait what am I
saying...) HUNDREDTH power less than an organophosphate. No, pyrethroid the
synthetic version which isn't even related to pyrethrum, but is tricky in
fooling unknowing people OR pipernol butoxide (aka PBO) which is a catalyst or
synergist to give the synthetic pyrethroid some residual action IS indeed
something I'd consider to be far more toxic.

So, now that I possibly blathered on too long, let it be known that we drove an
hour or so to Seaworld in San Antonio (a crapshoot as to whether or not I'd feel
awful about the animals in captivity) and I am fully charged with hope for the
future of these beautiful, brilliant animals AND I got to touch a dolphin. That
was a thrill in my life.

nighty nite,
V

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:237862

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:08:04 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:

So you think the malathion label is gonna say to use horticultural oil to
control scale (and mealy bugs)? If not, how was your reply appropriate?

It's amazing how Nazis *always* come up eventually.

Bob

No, Bob. It's not going to tell you to use horticultural oil. Geesh. It's
going to tell you the answer to the original person's question. MALATHION
RATE!!!!!! Did you NOT get that part? If he would have read the label, this
discussion would have been in the lucid dream of Tom Cruise in Vanilla
Sky...which I loved, by the way.

animaux wrote:

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 20:08:04 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:


So you think the malathion label is gonna say to use horticultural oil to
control scale (and mealy bugs)? If not, how was your reply appropriate?

It's amazing how Nazis *always* come up eventually.

Bob


No, Bob. It's not going to tell you to use horticultural oil. Geesh. It's
going to tell you the answer to the original person's question. MALATHION
RATE!!!!!! Did you NOT get that part? If he would have read the label, this
discussion would have been in the lucid dream of Tom Cruise in Vanilla
Sky...which I loved, by the way.

My point was that malathion doesn't work for adult scale. So I and several
other folks told OP to use oil -- which does work and is much less toxic.
Reading the malathion label would not have provided any useful information.

Just a minute; let me check my malathion label just to make sure...

[sounds of rummaging through pesticide collection]

Hmmm. Actually it *does* have dilution directions for scale crawlers, and
for adult scale on a few plants. It doesn't say anything about bay
specifically, and the dilution rates are quite a bit different for
ornamentals and for fruit trees. It's not listed at all for scale on
vegetables (maybe they don't attack vegetables). And there's nothing
anywhere about how often you might have to reapply to break the cycle.

Looks to me like there's plenty of room for someone to read the label and
still have questions.

Best regards,
Bob

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 22:16:29 -0500, zxcvbob wrote:


My point was that malathion doesn't work for adult scale. So I and several
other folks told OP to use oil -- which does work and is much less toxic.
Reading the malathion label would not have provided any useful information.

Many people here told him to use hort. oil. Specifically, Sunspray which can be
used year round.

Hmmm. Actually it *does* have dilution directions for scale crawlers, and
for adult scale on a few plants. It doesn't say anything about bay
specifically, and the dilution rates are quite a bit different for
ornamentals and for fruit trees. It's not listed at all for scale on
vegetables (maybe they don't attack vegetables). And there's nothing
anywhere about how often you might have to reapply to break the cycle.

Looks to me like there's plenty of room for someone to read the label and
still have questions.

Best regards,
Bob

And in my estimation, a product which clearly needs to be removed from the hands
of novice poison spraying. If it does not have something labeled on it, it
should not be used on that plant. If it does not list use for scale on bay
plants, it should not be used. I'm pretty sure it will say to only use it on
what is listed on the label. I could be wrong. I haven't looked at a label of
anything like that in probably 15 years or more.

fish can survive malathion, they cannot survive pyrethrums. Modern farmers and a lot
of other people are using integrated pest management. Part is putting up with some
damage, part is using the least toxic compound that does the job and part is applying
even that to a very limited area. Bt may sound innocuous, but it kills monarch
caterpillars and probably other caterpillars as well. Everything used has some non
specificity and kills "good guys". It takes a lot of research to find the right
stuff to use at the right time. Too often people are aligned on the extremes of
organic only OR the Steins full arsenal of poisons. Doesnt seem to be many voices of
the in between. If I use the most toxic shit but only spray a rose bush in a pot on
the patio this is nothing compared to spraying everything in the garden even with Bt.
or worse, using some "safer" product that doesnt work and out of frustration people
march right into Steins and pick up the really toxic stuff. If I hear one more
"spray the aphids with garlic" I am going to scream. I would rather people admit
that some plants are aphid magnets and the most logical thing to do is slash and burn
the plant. this is how I feel about roses. since they are in planters I dont mind
feeding them systemic but rather than screw around with spraying them with funginex
for black spot I let em croak. Roses are annuals unless they can make it on their
own. Ingrid

animaux wrote:
HOWEVER, the impact pyrethrum has on the soil biota, and macro organisms along
with mammals and other life forms is possibly to the tenth (wait what am I
saying...) HUNDREDTH power less than an organophosphate.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Well, I'm not going to satiate your desire for IPM. I am full on
organic/natural. However, citrus oil or active ingredient being d-limonine is
extremely toxic to common pests, such as aphids, and contact on others like
scale, whitefly, mealy bugs, etc. Can cause some sunburn damage, but it is
usually listed and not recommended to be used in the heat of afternoon sun.

Eh, we all do what we can to accommodate our own lives and how we want to live
them. I wish my husband would quit smoking because I want him around so he can
change my diapers!


On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:10:44 GMT, wrote:

fish can survive malathion, they cannot survive pyrethrums. Modern farmers and a lot
of other people are using integrated pest management. Part is putting up with some
damage, part is using the least toxic compound that does the job and part is applying
even that to a very limited area. Bt may sound innocuous, but it kills monarch
caterpillars and probably other caterpillars as well. Everything used has some non
specificity and kills "good guys". It takes a lot of research to find the right
stuff to use at the right time. Too often people are aligned on the extremes of
organic only OR the Steins full arsenal of poisons. Doesnt seem to be many voices of
the in between. If I use the most toxic shit but only spray a rose bush in a pot on
the patio this is nothing compared to spraying everything in the garden even with Bt.
or worse, using some "safer" product that doesnt work and out of frustration people
march right into Steins and pick up the really toxic stuff. If I hear one more
"spray the aphids with garlic" I am going to scream. I would rather people admit
that some plants are aphid magnets and the most logical thing to do is slash and burn
the plant. this is how I feel about roses. since they are in planters I dont mind
feeding them systemic but rather than screw around with spraying them with funginex
for black spot I let em croak. Roses are annuals unless they can make it on their
own. Ingrid

animaux wrote:
HOWEVER, the impact pyrethrum has on the soil biota, and macro organisms along
with mammals and other life forms is possibly to the tenth (wait what am I
saying...) HUNDREDTH power less than an organophosphate.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.