Thanks, Tom, that makes sense, but I have a hard time giving up those four
precious hours when I take a day off from work. By 5:00 p.m. I'm busy with
household chores, and to start very early in the morning isn't practical -
it's too cold!
Sue

"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
Sue,

Work before 1000am and after 1400 in the afternoon, between the 1000 and
1400 the light intensity from the sun is the most intense and most
consistent.

Tom L.L.
---------------------
"Sue Alexandre" wrote in message
news
Well if that's true, then someone in my house better get EMS training
real
quick, because there is no way I'm going to give up putzing by my pond
every
possible minute I can! So I guess the question is, what is NOT
allowable
out there? Is it the TIME you are exposed to the heat and sun, or the
amount of physical activity/cardio you are doing in the heat? And if I
stop
every 30 minutes to sit in shade and drink, does that counter any ill
affects from the previous 30 minutes? I guess what I'm asking is, can I
stay out there all day as long as I bring the temp down when it starts
to
rise? Problem with that is, I'm not sure I realize it until it's too
late.
Oh heck, I shouldn't worry - it's not often that I have an entire day to
do
nothing but work by my pond, and even MORE rare that we have a full day
of
sun here anymore!
Sue

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I have heard that people who have suffer HS once, seem to be more
sensitive
to the heat after that. Kind of like over working a thermostat, it
becomes
faulty afterwards. ~ jan

On Fri, 23 May 2003 14:27:18 GMT, wrote:

in a child or elderly, those with chronic illnesses (or somebody
taking
anti
psychotic meds) or mental confusion, heat stroke can be life
threatening
and calls
for a visit to an emergency room.
The problem is the mental confusion. My friend Jo Ann was rather
incoherent and when
I asked her what her temp was and had she been drinking gatorade...
she
wasnt
responding and told me she was going to bed. With heat stroke you go
to
bed and the
temp keeps rising and then you slip into a coma. Her husband was
already
asleep and
(sorry men) not terribly "responsive" in general. I called her
daughter
who was
there in 10 minutes, got her mom up and into the shower and started
taking her
temperature every 15 minutes or so, kept her drinking the gatorade
and
kept her awake
until her temp came back down. Then stayed overnight checking her
mothers temp every
hour to make sure she was fine. Unless there is a responsible other
person who will
monitor the situation, it really is better to go to an emergency
room.
A warning. having had heat stroke seems to either cause or predict
a
predisposition. Jo Ann now takes her temp when she is feeling a
little
weak after
being out in the heat and she drinks electrolytes. She now uses
Propel
cause there
isnt the sugar like in Gatorade. She basically tries to stay out of
the
heat as much
as possible, or limits her time outdoors when heat is intense.
Ingrid

"Sue Alexandre" wrote:
Even heat exhaustion is considered an emergency? I thought, from
reading
some websites, that heat cramps and heat exhaustion were manageable,
but
that the heat stroke should be tended to by medical professionals.
Luckily I think I'm OK..... still a little more tired than usual
today,
but
took a nap after work and I seem to be fine. I'm continuing to
hydrate
with
lots of water though, at least for another day or two. Heck, with
this
non-stop rain, that shouldn't be hard to do!
Thanks.
Sue

"FIRE224U" wrote in message
...
Both are true emergencies and EMS should be called.

Scott in Louisiana
Firefighter/EMT



See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Sat, 24 May 2003 07:59:15 -0500, mad wrote:

I have heard that people who have suffer HS once, seem to be more sensitive
to the heat after that. Kind of like over working a thermostat, it becomes
faulty afterwards. ~ jan

If that is true, it explains why i am already having trouble with the
heat.

On Sat, 24 May 2003 15:11:16 GMT, "Sue Alexandre"
wrote:

Well if that's true, then someone in my house better get EMS training real
quick, because there is no way I'm going to give up putzing by my pond every
possible minute I can! So I guess the question is, what is NOT allowable
out there? Is it the TIME you are exposed to the heat and sun, or the
amount of physical activity/cardio you are doing in the heat? And if I stop
every 30 minutes to sit in shade and drink, does that counter any ill
affects from the previous 30 minutes? I guess what I'm asking is, can I
stay out there all day as long as I bring the temp down when it starts to
rise? Problem with that is, I'm not sure I realize it until it's too late.
Oh heck, I shouldn't worry - it's not often that I have an entire day to do
nothing but work by my pond, and even MORE rare that we have a full day of
sun here anymore!
Sue

Just listen to your body when it says "i'm hot"....

On Sat, 24 May 2003 17:03:08 GMT, wrote:

work early in AM and later in the day when it is cooler.
dont work in bright sunlight when temp is over 80.
work in the shade.
wear a hat. put a wet washcloth on your head under the hat or, wet your hair.
put a wet washcloth around your neck to cool the blood going to the brain.
yes, drink gatorade or propel while working.
have somebody responsible at home who will call you in and take your temp every hour
or so. if your temp rises, into the shower immediately (not cold water, cool water).
and then they need to make sure your temp is back down and you have sucked down
enough gatorade. what you want them to understand is not let you fall asleep if your
temp is up, and if it stays up after shower and drink, then off to the emergency
ward. Ingrid

I dont know if it's the night i just had or the stress i've been under
or what, but i laughed so hard picturing my son calling me in every
hour to take my temp.

LOL Glad to hear that, Jammer, because I, too, when reading that, found it
comical. Not only would I first have to REMIND my husband or 20-year old
son to come get me and take my temperature, but even if they DID remember,
I'd fight them tooth and nail and tell them to bug off, or at the very least
I would keep stalling them with "ok, just let me finish this ONE more thing
and then I'll be right in, I promise!"
I'm sure it's good advice, but I'm not sure how realistic it is. Think I'm
better off just spraying myself with the hose every 30 minutes. LOL
Sue

"jammer" j@mmer wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 May 2003 17:03:08 GMT, wrote:

work early in AM and later in the day when it is cooler.
dont work in bright sunlight when temp is over 80.
work in the shade.
wear a hat. put a wet washcloth on your head under the hat or, wet your
hair.
put a wet washcloth around your neck to cool the blood going to the
brain.
yes, drink gatorade or propel while working.
have somebody responsible at home who will call you in and take your temp
every hour
or so. if your temp rises, into the shower immediately (not cold water,
cool water).
and then they need to make sure your temp is back down and you have
sucked down
enough gatorade. what you want them to understand is not let you fall
asleep if your
temp is up, and if it stays up after shower and drink, then off to the
emergency
ward. Ingrid

I dont know if it's the night i just had or the stress i've been under
or what, but i laughed so hard picturing my son calling me in every
hour to take my temp.

I said responsible member of the family. men dont have much imagination for disaster
and death IME. My mother relays the following experience. My step father (Al) was
outside "helping" her with gardening. She wasnt watching where she was going and
slammed her forehead right into a low overhanging limb of the apple tree. She
dropped like a rock and from her prone position saw him standing in the same spot,
hands on hips waiting for instructions. Men surrounded by women are pampered, women
surrounded by men are on their own. Ingrid

(usual disclaimer applies, not ALL men, only 99%)

"Sue Alexandre" wrote:
LOL Glad to hear that, Jammer, because I, too, when reading that, found it
comical. Not only would I first have to REMIND my husband or 20-year old
son to come get me and take my temperature,

Ingrid wrote Men surrounded by women are pampered, women
surrounded by men are on their own.

I went to a conference once. Arranged for DH to pick up the kids from school,
let's see I think we were 6, 6 and 2 at the time. Two year old was with me.
Came home. Opened the door, could hear my DD wheezing from up the stairs.
Dropped everything and put her on the nebulizer. DH was sitting two feet from
her.
aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!


k30a

On 25 May 2003 19:08:29 GMT, ESPMER (K30a) wrote:

Ingrid wrote Men surrounded by women are pampered, women
surrounded by men are on their own.

I went to a conference once. Arranged for DH to pick up the kids from school,
let's see I think we were 6, 6 and 2 at the time. Two year old was with me.
Came home. Opened the door, could hear my DD wheezing from up the stairs.
Dropped everything and put her on the nebulizer. DH was sitting two feet from
her.
aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!


k30a

I was in a restaurant years ago. My field of vision as i was eating
was an older couple. The lady got food lodged in her throat. I put my
fork down. She was having trouble...I stood up. She stood up and was
holding her chest and throat. I sprinted across the room and just
before doing the heimlich, i glanced to see her partner standing
there, palms to the sky, and said "I think she needs help!!"

my sweetie is the best of men and i love him. but one night i was wheezing
my head off and he said, "why don't you go use your inhaler?" it was on the
table next to his chair as he was sitting there. all he had to do was hand
it to me. sigh...
mad
--
Diaper backwards spells repaid. Think about it.
Marshall McLuhan


On 25 May 2003 19:08:29 GMT, ESPMER (K30a) wrote:

Ingrid wrote Men surrounded by women are pampered, women
surrounded by men are on their own.

I went to a conference once. Arranged for DH to pick up the kids from school,
let's see I think we were 6, 6 and 2 at the time. Two year old was with me.
Came home. Opened the door, could hear my DD wheezing from up the stairs.
Dropped everything and put her on the nebulizer. DH was sitting two feet from
her.
aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!


k30a



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Oh my, I didn't see this post, but I really need to reply to some of the
statements made!! Some are very much in error!!!

1) There exist 3 basic heat related syndromes (for lay purposes), which
consist of : heat cramps, heat exhaustion, and heat stroke; listed in order
of increasing severity.
2) heat cramps are caused by electrolyte imbalances in muscles,
representing potassium and sodium shifts, following exertion. Although
called heat cramps, they often occur based on significant exertion, without
the presence of high ambient (outside) temperature or any elevation in body
temperature. Here rest of the affected muscle groups, along with fluid
replacement, in the form of a balanced electrolyte solution (not free salt..
see below for more info. as to why) is indicated.
3) heat exhaustion can occur with overexertion syndromes in non-elevated
ambient temperatures, as well as the more classically thought of higher
ambient temperature (especially if the humidity is high, as the sweat
(evaporative) mechanism can no longer function properly). Symptoms are
cardiac, neurologic, and gastrointestinal, with neurologic often occurring
first, as the brain is very heat sensitive..
4) when you sweat, you lose far more free water than salt. When you measure
serum (blood) sodium/chloride levels in these patients (heat exhaustion)
they are often elevated. You do NOT want to add any additional salt to the
fluid intake. That is an old concept and is wrong! You want to treat with
immediate cessation of exercise, removal to a cooler environment (if high
ambient temperatures are present), controlled fluid intake (you don't want
to chug down a quart of water.. the colder water (colder relative to your
internal body temperature) going down the esophagus can precipitate atrial
fibrillation (an irregular heart rhythm)). We classically see this with fast
action sports (ie tennis), when the players sit down and drink a "cold"
beverage quickly. I have seen this in tennis, basketball, etc players in
their late teens, twenties, etc. Incidence goes up with increasing age.
5) If you are still sweating odds are you are experiencing exhaustion, BUT
your temperature elevation can still be dangerously high. There is
morbidity/mortality seen with heat exhaustion! Don't let anyone tell you
otherwise. You don't need to stop sweating (ie heat stroke) first to develop
a high core (internal) temperature resulting in significant brain/heart
injury and death.
6) The ONLY way to reliably check your body's temperature in a heat related
event, is by a RECTAL temperature. In exhaustion/stoke oral, axillary
(armpit), and tympanic (ear) temperatures are absolutely worthless, and can
be very dangerous if you rely on them to determine whether you may need
care!! That decision should be based on your symptoms!
7) Getting into a shower to cool down, even when using room temperature
water has resulted in heart attacks in a number of heat exhausted victims.
The mechanism is that elevated body temp. meets with cooler than body temp.
(notice I didn't say cold water) water, which results in significant
vasoconstriction of the skin, in a person who has been sweating up to that
point. This causes increased cardiac workload as systemic vascular
resistance (think of this as clamping down on hoses, and what this does to
the workload of pumps) stresses the heart. To make things worse the
vasoconstriction cuts down on the heat loss mechanism, shunting warm
(relatively hot in this case) blood away from the skin where it was being
dissipated, (if any shivering occurs it is far worse, as even more internal
heat is generated), and the internal core temperature rises even further
causing more, and often irreversible damage to the brain/heart, etc..
8) induced vasoconstriction is one way heat exhaustion - heat stroke! The
distinction between the 2 blurs as there is overlap between the 2 syndromes,
as far as brain/heart injury. etc goes
9) heat stroke is most commonly seen in elderly patients, well as in those
with other systemic disease processes, such as collagen vascular diseases,
certain endocrine diseases, diabetes, etc. It may occur without any
exertion, and in fact in the absence of any high ambient temperature, which
may (fatally) delay the diagnosis, if it is not thought of and confirmed by
checking rectal temperature. With heat stroke the body's sweat mechanism has
failed (patient no longer shows sweating if they were initially sweating (ie
heat exhaustion now progressing into heat stroke), although they may still
be wet from previous sweating, (which tends to fool quite a few medical
residents)) and core temperature rises dramatically, and often fatally. Even
if the patient survives, usually there is brain damage due to the core
temperature elevation. These patients often need significant volume (fluid)
replacement, but NONE ORALLY, they need it IV. They are prone to aspiration
if given oral fluids, as the stomach is atonic due to the elevated body
temperature.
10) In summary, if you develop ANY neurologic symptoms (dizziness,
significant headache, weakness, visual changes, etc), any cardiac symptoms
(palpitations, shortness of breath, or difficulty in breathing, chest
tightness, etc) or any gastrointestinal symptoms (vomiting), then you
should:
a) immediately stop what you are doing
b) get into a sheltered area
c) call 911, like the EMT suggested earlier in this thread.. (that was the
correct advice!)
d) while help is on the way, slowly drink plain water, avoiding all salt,
all caffeine containing and/or carbonated beverages, etc.
DO NOT WAIT TO CALL EMS while:
checking your temperature.
taking a shower or bath
waiting to see if rest/drinking replacement fluids will make you feel better
(many go lay down to "rest" for a bit and never wake up again)
WHY not wait a bit to see if you improve??.. if your temperature continues
to rise you can easily experience irreversible damage to your heart/brain
which can manifest it quite suddenly.
Common sense applies he
Now I am not saying if you are over exerting yourself on a hot day and you
get a little out of breath (because you are not in shape to begin with) you
need to immediately call 911. You need to use some common sense. What I am
saying is that you can't waste ANY time in the presence of
neurologic/cardiac symptoms, while you try "home remedies".
Remember that only 10 or 15 minutes of continued elevation of internal
temperature can make the difference between subsequent complete recovery and
significant neurologic damage.
The best Rx is prevention:
DO Drink supplemental fluids, predominately free water. If you do insist on
"balance electrolyte" solutions, as many athletes due, (usually for cramps,
or very low level exhaustion) we advise them, based on substantial data,
that it be no more than one part balanced electrolyte solution to 3 or 4
parts free water (it should never be free salt, as you need a balance which
includes potassium, to avoid fatal irregular heart rhythms, etc). so one
glass of "Gatorade" for every 3 or 4 glasses of free water may be
acceptable.
DO Drink small amounts frequently, avoiding large amounts at any one time.
DO Drink them room temperature if the day is hot/you've been
exerting/exercising yourself.
DO Avoid exertion in midday sun.
DO Avoid excessive exertion, especially without previous conditioning
(weekend warrior/athlete syndrome, classically in middle aged people, who
haven't kept in shape, but act like they have on weekends.. you know the
ones)
DO Pace yourself, the job will still be there tomorrow....
I want you to be here tomorrow, (so I can read more about your ponds)!
Greg


"mad" wrote in message
...
my sweetie is the best of men and i love him. but one night i was wheezing
my head off and he said, "why don't you go use your inhaler?" it was on
the
table next to his chair as he was sitting there. all he had to do was hand
it to me. sigh...
mad
--
Diaper backwards spells repaid. Think about it.
Marshall McLuhan


On 25 May 2003 19:08:29 GMT, ESPMER (K30a) wrote:

Ingrid wrote Men surrounded by women are pampered, women
surrounded by men are on their own.

I went to a conference once. Arranged for DH to pick up the kids from
school,
let's see I think we were 6, 6 and 2 at the time. Two year old was with
me.
Came home. Opened the door, could hear my DD wheezing from up the
stairs.
Dropped everything and put her on the nebulizer. DH was sitting two feet
from
her.
aaaaaarrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!


k30a



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----

Greg,
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this information and
correction of earlier posts. My sons tend toward over-exertion (they're
teenagers, so no more!!) and can dehydrate quickly. We've fought a
sometimes losing battle in trying to convince them that water is more
important than an electrolyte beverage, as that is what their "friends"
drink (sometimes as a daily beverage!) It was good to see the
information on using 1/4 the amount of "gatorade" to 3/4 water.
--
zookeeper

Greg:
Thank you so much for the comprehensive information regarding heat and
exertion. I think us ponders really need to pay attention to this, since we
are usually out there "putzing" on warm, sunny days, and we all know that we
tend to get a bit obsessive and overdo it when it comes to our ponds. One
of the items you mentioned briefly really caught my attention.... it was the
change in vision. For years now (since I built my pond) I usually start to
notice towards the end of a weekend day that I'm not "seeing right" and it
has puzzled me, and now I just accept it. I wasn't sure if it was from
being in bright light for so many hours, or from not doing any "up close"
focusing as I do all day, every work day. I thought maybe it was the
contrast between the severe change in routine (close up vs. not close up).
NOW I will try to take any "seeing funny" as a possible sign of heat
exhaustion and as a clue to "cool it". Sure hope I haven't done any
permanent damage to myself - I've just been chalking up my occasional brain
fog as having a senior moment. Thanks again.
Sue
"zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Greg,
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this information and
correction of earlier posts. My sons tend toward over-exertion (they're
teenagers, so no more!!) and can dehydrate quickly. We've fought a
sometimes losing battle in trying to convince them that water is more
important than an electrolyte beverage, as that is what their "friends"
drink (sometimes as a daily beverage!) It was good to see the
information on using 1/4 the amount of "gatorade" to 3/4 water.
--
zookeeper

I don't fight with people any more on the balanced electrolyte issues/heat
issues. I will correct misinformation on the subject, but that's about it..
You can't convince people, if they are unwilling to have an open mind to
things.. I learned that long ago....
The last big fight I had concerning heat related issues was when I was
medical director for World Veteran's games, when it was held in Western New
York, in the early 90's.
I actually had to cancel an event (10K run), because of numerous cases of
heat exhaustion, and one case of heat stroke, occurring in the preceding
event.
They were preventable which really got my dander up. They occurred because
the American local organizers didn't listen to their medical team (myself, 2
RNs who were also EMTs and a large senior EMS crew).
We had told them the course was too long for the chosen terrain (it is
usually 5k over rough up and down terrain). Much of the course in Akron, NY
was in full sun another no-no. 10K is allowed according to the game's
rulebook, but it specifies open (level) terrain. The Akron course was a full
10K over very up and down terrain.
I told them that event needed to be over by 11am at the latest, due to the
high humidity we had been having all week, along with predicted high
temperatures. We had also asked for to have more water stations and portable
showers (they run through while continuing the race). They told us the
athlete's were well conditioned, but they would "consider" our request. It
never happened.
After the competitors starting collapsing like flies, I cancelled the rest
of that event (only the 10K not other events in the games), while my 2 Rn's
and I started I can't remember how many IV's in the field. I was told that
canceling an event like this had "never happened before', and that I was
causing an "international incident", but I was too busy to argue at that
point in time..
Fortunately after transporting a total of about 13 or so (memory fails me as
to the exact number, as we were able to check rectal temps, and administer
IVs allowing us to discharge a number directly from our field unit) to area
hospitals by ambulance, and the heat stroke by helicopter), all eventually
did well. All were released, although the heat stroke was hospitalized
longer... No residuals in any of them, which was quite remarkable in view of
the age group that was competing .. it was the 45 - 55 yr old women.. (the
subsequent 45 - 55 yr old men's event got cancelled, along with the 55+
women and the 55+ men events scheduled to follow the above).
It was always interesting to me, why they had older groups competing after
the younger ones (first group was the 35 -45 women, then the 35 - 35 men,
then the above groups). That never made any sense, as thermal regulation is
more efficient in younger people, so you would want older competitors to run
first, younger later..
The only thing that made me feel better was when the international judges
came by, they agreed with me on all the above points and blamed the local
organizing committee for the situation. I was off the hook, the EMS system
worked flawlessly, the victims of heat related injury ultimately did fine,
so all's well that ends well..
Greg


"zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Greg,
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this information and
correction of earlier posts. My sons tend toward over-exertion (they're
teenagers, so no more!!) and can dehydrate quickly. We've fought a
sometimes losing battle in trying to convince them that water is more
important than an electrolyte beverage, as that is what their "friends"
drink (sometimes as a daily beverage!) It was good to see the
information on using 1/4 the amount of "gatorade" to 3/4 water.
--
zookeeper

I have those senior moments too.
Just like most everyone else at one time or another, I have overdone the
exertion bit in full sun. Fortunately, I know how to prevent heat related
illness from occurring, and am able to watch for early signs of trouble.
You would know permanent brain damage, its really obvious and not subtle in
most cases.
I did forget to mention in my post, just like the opposite.. frostbite..
once you've experienced heat exhaustion/stroke, your incidence of further
episodes of it is several times higher than it was before, and much higher
than that of the general population.. The current theory is that damage to
the thalamus (brain stem) due to the first heat related event has
permanently affected your thermoregulatory control mechanism there, and you
are far more prone to repeat events.
Greg


"Sue Alexandre" wrote in message
...
Greg:
Thank you so much for the comprehensive information regarding heat and
exertion. I think us ponders really need to pay attention to this, since
we
are usually out there "putzing" on warm, sunny days, and we all know that
we
tend to get a bit obsessive and overdo it when it comes to our ponds. One
of the items you mentioned briefly really caught my attention.... it was
the
change in vision. For years now (since I built my pond) I usually start
to
notice towards the end of a weekend day that I'm not "seeing right" and it
has puzzled me, and now I just accept it. I wasn't sure if it was from
being in bright light for so many hours, or from not doing any "up close"
focusing as I do all day, every work day. I thought maybe it was the
contrast between the severe change in routine (close up vs. not close up).
NOW I will try to take any "seeing funny" as a possible sign of heat
exhaustion and as a clue to "cool it". Sure hope I haven't done any
permanent damage to myself - I've just been chalking up my occasional
brain
fog as having a senior moment. Thanks again.
Sue
"zookeeper" wrote in message
...
Greg,
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this information and
correction of earlier posts. My sons tend toward over-exertion (they're
teenagers, so no more!!) and can dehydrate quickly. We've fought a
sometimes losing battle in trying to convince them that water is more
important than an electrolyte beverage, as that is what their "friends"
drink (sometimes as a daily beverage!) It was good to see the
information on using 1/4 the amount of "gatorade" to 3/4 water.
--
zookeeper

what was in the IV solution? Ingrid

"Gregory Young" wrote:
After the competitors starting collapsing like flies, I cancelled the rest
of that event (only the 10K not other events in the games), while my 2 Rn's
and I started I can't remember how many IV's in the field.