dave weil wrote:
In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has
been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about
3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there
have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a
pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge
panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem).
Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on
May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red
stems):

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg

A week later:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg

Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg

Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As
some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the
tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...)

I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this
(third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms
after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if
there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the
reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young
specimens. Anybody with experience in this area?

Yes, quite, in both.

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the
second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they.
That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber.

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved
as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and
now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is
that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles.

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at
the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years
old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the
blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely
panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE
explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in
onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season.

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and
large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the
subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those
panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant
to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now
been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes
at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be
overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all
be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal.
Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree.

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you
leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth
comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows
the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any
cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB
is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are
cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the
bush needs to be contained.

When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating
(in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a
trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a
bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray
CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost
continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose.

Just thought I'd throw this out for the record...

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with
mine.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has
been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about
3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there
have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a
pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge
panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem).
Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on
May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red
stems):

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg

A week later:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg

Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg

Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As
some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the
tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...)

I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this
(third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms
after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if
there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the
reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young
specimens. Anybody with experience in this area?

Yes, quite, in both.

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the
second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they.
That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and
Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved
as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and
now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is
that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at
the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years
old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the
blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely
panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE
explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in
onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one,
do you?

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and
large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the
subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those
panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant
to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now
been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes
at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be
overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all
be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal.
Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree.

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you
leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth
comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows
the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any
cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB
is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are
cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the
bush needs to be contained.

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw
a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots
of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is
responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches.

When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating
(in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a
trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a
bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray
CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost
continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose.

Just thought I'd throw this out for the record...

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with
mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there
are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you
can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth
in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has
been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about
3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there
have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a
pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge
panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem).
Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on
May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red
stems):

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg

A week later:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg

Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg

Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As
some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the
tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...)

I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this
(third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms
after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if
there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the
reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young
specimens. Anybody with experience in this area?

Yes, quite, in both.

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the
second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they.
That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and
Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved
as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and
now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is
that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at
the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years
old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the
blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely
panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE
explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in
onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one,
do you?

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and
large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the
subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those
panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant
to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now
been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes
at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be
overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all
be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal.
Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree.

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you
leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth
comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows
the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any
cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB
is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are
cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the
bush needs to be contained.

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw
a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots
of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is
responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches.

When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating
(in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a
trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a
bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray
CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost
continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose.

Just thought I'd throw this out for the record...

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with
mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there
are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you
can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth
in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

Dave,

There's a picture of Cl. Cecile Brunner practically overwhelming a house at
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

BTW, that same site mentions that this rose is most commonly once-blooming,
but that there are repeat-blooming ones available.

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC





"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has
been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about
3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there
have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a
pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge
panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem).
Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on
May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red
stems):

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg

A week later:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg

Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg

Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As
some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the
tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...)

I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this
(third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms
after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if
there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the
reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young
specimens. Anybody with experience in this area?

Yes, quite, in both.

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the
second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they.
That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and
Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved
as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and
now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is
that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at
the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years
old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the
blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely
panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE
explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in
onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing
season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one,
do you?

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and
large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the
subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those
panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant
to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now
been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes
at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be
overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all
be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal.
Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree.

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you
leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth
comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows
the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any
cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB
is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are
cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the
bush needs to be contained.

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw
a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots
of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is
responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches.

When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating
(in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a
trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a
bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray
CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost
continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose.

Just thought I'd throw this out for the record...

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with
mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there
are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you
can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth
in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in
the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't
they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the
Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush
and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

And rearranging a bit

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner
at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8
years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner
in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and
lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous
for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws
out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest
of the growing season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar
one, do you?

From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles,
it blooms all along the canes, like this:

http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html

That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks
like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden.

Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture
collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load
and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley
Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001."

http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm

You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes.

In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort
of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can
imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in girth).

Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks
like (minus the house):

http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little
essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered
variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a
repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want
this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try
Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it."

I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours?

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it
behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three
years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the
tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and
lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes
all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush
that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe
is the origin of the Spray form.

I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush
form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about,
and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that
is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell
instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a
climber that is sporting into the Spray form? Is it possible that yours
is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions
in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form?

Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim
that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being
also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this:

http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm

My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals
that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some
gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either.

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB? The bush form, a
neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is
about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no
flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from
Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento:

http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct
and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the
largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it?

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as
you leave it a large bush. ...

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it
threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with
lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide
and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the
branches.

Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very
lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them
in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support,
not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next
to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the
wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no
training is needed. It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall
canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10
and 15 feet tall - for various reasons.

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide
with mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried
to train it beyond what I said above.

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but
there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the
right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of
the growth in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

Nice shots, especially the first one.

I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB
that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it
throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB.

How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some
questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it
does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the
climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the
flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but
you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have!

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:16:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote:

Dave,

There's a picture of Cl. Cecile Brunner practically overwhelming a house at
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

BTW, that same site mentions that this rose is most commonly once-blooming,
but that there are repeat-blooming ones available.

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you would tell if your
climbing CB was remontant or not. I wonder if there's any way to tell
with a starter plant.

Plus, I guess I'm confused by the continual use of the word shrub in
reference to this plant. Radika used it and so did Mr. Barden. I
wouldn't usually use the word shrub in conjunction with a climbing
rose. maybe it's just me.

I sure hope that mine gets that big eventually!

"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has
been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about
3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there
have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a
pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge
panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem).
Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on
May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red
stems):

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg

A week later:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg

Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg

Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As
some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the
tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...)

I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this
(third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms
after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if
there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the
reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young
specimens. Anybody with experience in this area?

Yes, quite, in both.

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the
second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they.
That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and
Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved
as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and
now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is
that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at
the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years
old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the
blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely
panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE
explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in
onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing
season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one,
do you?

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and
large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the
subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those
panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant
to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now
been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes
at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be
overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all
be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal.
Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree.

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you
leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth
comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows
the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any
cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB
is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are
cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the
bush needs to be contained.

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw
a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots
of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is
responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches.

When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating
(in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a
trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a
bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray
CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost
continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose.

Just thought I'd throw this out for the record...

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with
mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there
are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you
can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth
in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:16:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote:


Dave,

There's a picture of Cl. Cecile Brunner practically overwhelming a house at
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

BTW, that same site mentions that this rose is most commonly once-blooming,
but that there are repeat-blooming ones available.

Anne Lurie
Raleigh, NC


I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you would tell if your
climbing CB was remontant or not. I wonder if there's any way to tell
with a starter plant.

Plus, I guess I'm confused by the continual use of the word shrub in
reference to this plant. Radika used it and so did Mr. Barden. I
wouldn't usually use the word shrub in conjunction with a climbing
rose. maybe it's just me.

Dave, this at least I can clarify - as far as my usage is concerned. In
my experience, almost all climbing roses, with some notable exceptions,
can be grown as tall, self-supporting shrubs. They are not climbing
vine-like plants, to my limited imagination, say as a a grape vine is or
a clematis or a jasmine. So, I think of them all as shrubs, and only
distinguished by sizes.

However: Annie Laurie, Renae - I would never think of these as shrubs,
as their canes are absolutely lax, woes is me, for I fo not like to deal
with this kind of growth. OTOH, Renae and Annie Laurie are both
absolutely GORGEOUS, flowers size, shape and colour very similar to CB,
and totally thorn-free. The foliage is a maginificent brilliant green,
glossy as all get out and they have neve heard of diseases, ever. They
would be ideal to grow as weeping trees or as roses that climb trees.

Lady Banks is yet another rose with the same really lax canes and truly
climbing habit, and though it is reported as remontant in Southern
California, in our cooler Northern CA summers, it is pretty much an
once-bloomer. I grow the yellow Lady Banks, and am trying to grow up a
Cedar tree.

In general, it seems to me that most climbing roses are merely very tall
selfsupporting shrubs, and very few are true climbers like a jasmine is;
it is perhaps the limitation imposed on me by my imagination.

Why Paul calls CB a shrub, I am not sure. I can ask him and see what he
has to say.

I sure hope that mine gets that big eventually!

Oh, if your CB is as big as it is in the picutres in 3 years, never fear
- you will have a HUGE rose in a decade.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

Dave & Radhika I do grow the Ever blooming
CB the Heiloom sells. Mine is now a 2 year old plant.

It is extremely lax. It has never put out stiff
panicles like in the pictures and is now about
15 ft high. It seems to bloom continously
there always atleast 30-40 blooms on it.

There was a nice spring flush that got
washed away. I do seem to have seriously
underestimated the size of this thing. It is just the
second year and I'm having to do some
hedge pruning to keep the basal count down.

It puts out basals by the dozen!!

All my pruning is seriously cutting down the bloom
count. Oh! Heirloom says they got theirs from
Sisikiyou. It apparently a very undocumented
sport of CB.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City

"Radika Kesavan" wrote in message
...
dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in
the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't
they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the
Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush
and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

And rearranging a bit

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner
at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8
years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner
in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and
lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous
for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws
out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest
of the growing season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar
one, do you?

From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles,
it blooms all along the canes, like this:

http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html

That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks
like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden.

Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture
collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load
and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley
Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001."

http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm

You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes.

In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort
of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can
imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in
girth).

Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks
like (minus the house):

http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little
essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered
variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a
repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want
this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try
Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it."

I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours?

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it
behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three
years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the
tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and
lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes
all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush
that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe
is the origin of the Spray form.

I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush
form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about,
and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that
is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell
instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a
climber that is sporting into the Spray form? Is it possible that yours
is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions
in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form?

Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim
that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being
also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this:

http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm

My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals
that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some
gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either.

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB? The bush form, a
neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is
about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no
flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from
Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento:

http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct
and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the
largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it?

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as
you leave it a large bush. ...

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it
threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with
lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide
and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the
branches.

Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very
lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them
in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support,
not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next
to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the
wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no
training is needed. It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall
canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10
and 15 feet tall - for various reasons.

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide
with mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried
to train it beyond what I said above.

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but
there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the
right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of
the growth in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

Nice shots, especially the first one.

I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB
that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it
throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB.

How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some
questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it
does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the
climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the
flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but
you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have!

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:25:53 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote:

It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in
the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't
they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the
Climber.

Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush
and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the
blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the
only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the
canes, which is why I thought it was odd.

And rearranging a bit

There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner
at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8
years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner
in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and
lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous
for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws
out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest
of the growing season.

You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar
one, do you?

From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles,
it blooms all along the canes, like this:

http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html

Maybe I'm confusing the term panicle with clusters. Mine seems to
bloom in clusters all along the length of the cane, just smaller
versions of those two huge panicles that grew directly from basals.

PS, actually there are two long basals that grew up into the tree,not
just the one that I mentioned.

Boy, I REALLY like that La Pactole. Is that a single plant or a "hedge
planting"? where can I get one *just* like that? chuckle

As I read it, there are at least two plants there, right?

That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks
like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden.

Looks like the way that mine blooms, with the exception of those two
large ground based panicles. As I said, each of the clusteres just
looks like panicles to me (i.e. branching clusters). Is my
nomenclature incorrect?

Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture
collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load
and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley
Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001."

http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm

You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes.

But if you look at the clusters on mine, they just look like small
panicles.

In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort
of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can
imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in girth).

Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks
like (minus the house):

http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little
essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered
variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a
repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want
this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try
Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it."

Yes, looks like a larger version of mine when mine is in full bloom.
Here's a good example of my plant, from a while back:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB5.jpg

Not nearly as full yet, but that's partially because I keep looping
the canes back on themselves. I expect the next year to really 'fill
in the gaps".

But, you can see that the bloom structure seems the same...

I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours?

Mine was an Antique Rose Emporium model.

Here's what it looked like a couple of months after I planted it 3
springs ago:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB6.jpg

I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it
behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three
years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the
tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and
lovely panicles.

Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that
are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I
train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead
tree.

Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes
all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush
that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe
is the origin of the Spray form.

I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush
form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about,
and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that
is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell
instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a
climber that is sporting into the Spray form?

That could very well be, as it seems to exhibit traits of both
(assuming that panicles and sprays aren't mutually exclusive.

Is it possible that yours
is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions
in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form?

Well, that's why I posted this info in the first place. It definitely
didn't go away after the first big flush (although it's a little quiet
at the moment, there are still a few blooms and more on the way).

Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim
that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being
also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this:

http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm

Hmmmm, I don't think that mine is that, because it doesn't have a HUGE
fragrance.

My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals
that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some
gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either.

Here is a closeup of mine:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

This is from November of last year (showing that this sucker blooms
*late* in the season as well)

What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems
the same to me...

Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB?

No, I meant the sprays of blooms (read clusters or panicles even).

The bush form, a
neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is
about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no
flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from
Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento:

http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html

Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct
and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the
largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller.

As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right
now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and
more on the way...

Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it?

Totally duuuude!

chuckle

You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as
you leave it a large bush. ...

Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it
threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with
lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide
and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the
branches.

Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very
lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them
in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support,
not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next
to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the
wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no
training is needed.

Ahhhh, but you *did* train it, eh? I didn't just grow totally
self-supported...

It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall
canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10
and 15 feet tall - for various reasons.

Well, this helps explain, since you used the term bush, which is a
term I usually don't use when it comes to climbing roses (but that's
just me).

Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide
with mine.

Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones
that I've described?

Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried
to train it beyond what I said above.

Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new
growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but
there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the
right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of
the growth in the tip part of the tree...

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg

Nice shots, especially the first one.

I kind of like the fact that the form mimics the shape of a tree. I'm
hoping eventually that the whole thing fills in though...

I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB
that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in
http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html

Well, that's almost a given, since it's stayed in bloom. I was just
wondering if maybe there was a chance that there wasn't actually a
"non-remontant" type (I was just sort of guessing that it was possible
given the confusion regarding the various forms of this plant, if you
catch my drift). I seem to see people talking about it, but rarely
talking about spcific plants being that way (for instance, we don't
know whether the one pictured on the Barden site is remontant or not,
because he doesn't specify).

I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it
throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB.

It's weird because mine seems to have the traits of both types, in
that it also blooms in clusters along the length of the cane, and yet,
paradoxically, stays in bloom for a long time. Confusing, eh?

How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some
questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it
does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the
climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the
flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but
you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have!

That's a good suggestion indeed.

This has been a productive conversation, even if there *is* still some
uncertainty...

"Radika Kesavan" wrote in message
...

Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim
that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being
also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this:

http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm

My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals
that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some
gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either.

I had wanted to get a climbing Cecile Brunner but lived on a small house
block and wasn't sure how to deal with a 20ft monster. When I went to my
local rose society's field day (where we visit the rose garden of one of the
members), the host had a Bloomfield Abundance and it had the longer sepals
that you described. It seemed to be the perfect compromise as it is still
tall but not huge. She very generously allowed me to take some cuttings and
I have around 6 little cuttings that are 3 months old. It also had a
beautiful, sweet fragrance.

Kirra
Brisbane, Australia
zone 10

In article , dave weil
wrote:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the
pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny?

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the
pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny?

If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If
that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate.

I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I
wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while
each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly
is a panicle?

BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush?
Reblooming or not?

In article , dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the
pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny?

If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If
that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate.

The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which
forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have
little spines.

I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I
wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while
each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly
is a panicle?

Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally
Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's
this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over
head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles
are about 2' x 2'.

BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush?
Reblooming or not?

Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the
late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is
a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused
with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner
is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner
isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross.

Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but
of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I
thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not.

--
-=-
Cass
USDA Zone 9 Left Coast
www.rosefog.us

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:55:12 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the
pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny?

If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If
that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate.

The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which
forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have
little spines.

Mine don't. Very smooth.

I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I
wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while
each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly
is a panicle?

Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally
Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's
this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over
head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles
are about 2' x 2'.

On mine, the panicles can be anywhere from supporting 4 - 8 blooms or
being an umbrella that holds 20 or 30. Use your imagination to
visualize the size. In any case, those panicles coming off of the cane
are a bit smaller than 2' X 2'. I'd say that from stem to bloom tip,
they are no mare than about a foot and probably no wider than about a
foot, for the bigger ones. Many of them are actually smaller and are
probably only about 6" X 6".

The two sprays on the side of the plant came up as basals, so they
could be considered to be 36 inches long, I suppose (from the base of
the plant). The ones that come out of the canes are a bit smaller than
what you describe (see above)

BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush?
Reblooming or not?

Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the
late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is
a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused
with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner
is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner
isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross.

Are you conflating "Spray" CB with "Improved" CD here?

Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but
of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I
thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not.

Nope. Not spiny.

I've probably muddied the waters even more. I know *I'm* confused!

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:55:12 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass
wrote:

In article , dave weil
wrote:

http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg

That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the
pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny?

If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If
that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate.

The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which
forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have
little spines.

Mine don't. Very smooth.

I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I
wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while
each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly
is a panicle?

Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally
Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's
this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over
head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles
are about 2' x 2'.

On mine, the panicles can be anywhere from supporting 4 - 8 blooms or
being an umbrella that holds 20 or 30. Use your imagination to
visualize the size. In any case, those panicles coming off of the cane
are a bit smaller than 2' X 2'. I'd say that from stem to bloom tip,
they are no mare than about a foot and probably no wider than about a
foot, for the bigger ones. Many of them are actually smaller and are
probably only about 6" X 6".

The two sprays on the side of the plant came up as basals, so they
could be considered to be 36 inches long, I suppose (from the base of
the plant). The ones that come out of the canes are a bit smaller than
what you describe (see above)

BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush?
Reblooming or not?

Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the
late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is
a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused
with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner
is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner
isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross.

Are you conflating "Spray" CB with "Improved" CD here?

Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but
of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I
thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not.

Nope. Not spiny.

I've probably muddied the waters even more. I know *I'm* confused!