Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
dave weil wrote:
In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about 3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem). Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red stems): http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg A week later: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...) I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this (third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young specimens. Anybody with experience in this area? Yes, quite, in both. It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal. Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree. You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the bush needs to be contained. When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating (in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose. Just thought I'd throw this out for the record... Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote: dave weil wrote: In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about 3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem). Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red stems): http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg A week later: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...) I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this (third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young specimens. Anybody with experience in this area? Yes, quite, in both. It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal. Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree. You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the bush needs to be contained. Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating (in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose. Just thought I'd throw this out for the record... Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote: dave weil wrote: In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about 3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem). Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red stems): http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg A week later: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...) I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this (third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young specimens. Anybody with experience in this area? Yes, quite, in both. It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal. Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree. You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the bush needs to be contained. Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating (in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose. Just thought I'd throw this out for the record... Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
Dave,
There's a picture of Cl. Cecile Brunner practically overwhelming a house at http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html BTW, that same site mentions that this rose is most commonly once-blooming, but that there are repeat-blooming ones available. Anne Lurie Raleigh, NC "dave weil" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan wrote: dave weil wrote: In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about 3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem). Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red stems): http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg A week later: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...) I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this (third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young specimens. Anybody with experience in this area? Yes, quite, in both. It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal. Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree. You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the bush needs to be contained. Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating (in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose. Just thought I'd throw this out for the record... Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan wrote: It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. And rearranging a bit There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles, it blooms all along the canes, like this: http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001." http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes. In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in girth). Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks like (minus the house): http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it." I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours? I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe is the origin of the Spray form. I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about, and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a climber that is sporting into the Spray form? Is it possible that yours is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form? Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this: http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either. What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB? The bush form, a neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento: http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it? You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. ... Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support, not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no training is needed. It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10 and 15 feet tall - for various reasons. Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried to train it beyond what I said above. Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg Nice shots, especially the first one. I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB. How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have! -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:16:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie"
wrote: Dave, There's a picture of Cl. Cecile Brunner practically overwhelming a house at http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html BTW, that same site mentions that this rose is most commonly once-blooming, but that there are repeat-blooming ones available. Anne Lurie Raleigh, NC I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you would tell if your climbing CB was remontant or not. I wonder if there's any way to tell with a starter plant. Plus, I guess I'm confused by the continual use of the word shrub in reference to this plant. Radika used it and so did Mr. Barden. I wouldn't usually use the word shrub in conjunction with a climbing rose. maybe it's just me. I sure hope that mine gets that big eventually! "dave weil" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan wrote: dave weil wrote: In the interest of reporting, I just wanted to note that my CB(CL) has been in continuous bloom since the onset of blooms. That's been about 3 months now. I had the first really big flush back in May, but there have always been more than just scattered blooms on the plant. I had a pretty good sized "second flush" that included throwing 2 huge panticles directly from the base of the plant (not off of a stem). Here's a pic of it, although it's a bit difficult to see. First is on May 5th and you can see them growing on the right side (the red stems): http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB1.jpg A week later: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB2.jpg Then, almost in full bloom the second week of June: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CBJune8.jpg Other than that bloom, I've always had lots of clusters higher up. As some fade, others open (and I haven't trimmed any of them up in the tree, basically because it wold be a pain in the ass...) I just mention this because this is the first year that I've seen this (third year). The first two, I only got a very scattered set of blooms after the flush (and long stretches with *no* blooms). I wonder if there *are* indeed nonreblooming and reblooming versions, or if the reporting of nonreblooming plants is just those observing young specimens. Anybody with experience in this area? Yes, quite, in both. It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Also, I *wa*s going to ask what I should have done with those panticles as they've been bare for about 3 weeks now. I was hesitant to cut them because they didn't grow like a normal cane, and I've now been rewarded with new growth coming directly out of the fan of canes at the tip. If they all generate new canes, then I'm going to be overwhelmed with new growth! The only downside is that they will all be fairly small diameter canes supported by one BIG HONKIN' basal. Still, might work well for covering the trunk of the tree. You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. I leave those canes alone, and yes, more growth comes out of the tips, unless they get in my husband's way when he mows the lawn. I have told him that this is one rose where he can cut off any cane that tries to scratch him without consulting me first, for Spray CB is an exuberant grower anyway. Besides, the thorns on this rose are cruelly curved downwards and tear the flesh very effectively, so the bush needs to be contained. Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. When the bush was younger, I made the mistake of pruning and defoliating (in our climate, some polyanthas remain evergreen). After Kim Rupert, a trusted Rose-Breeder pointed out that this is a silly thing to do with a bush that never wants to lose its leaves, I have been leaving the Spray CB alone as far as winter pruning goes. The reward is that I get almost continuous onset of distinct flushes on this rose. Just thought I'd throw this out for the record... Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
dave weil wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:16:35 GMT, "Anne Lurie" wrote: Dave, There's a picture of Cl. Cecile Brunner practically overwhelming a house at http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html BTW, that same site mentions that this rose is most commonly once-blooming, but that there are repeat-blooming ones available. Anne Lurie Raleigh, NC I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how you would tell if your climbing CB was remontant or not. I wonder if there's any way to tell with a starter plant. Plus, I guess I'm confused by the continual use of the word shrub in reference to this plant. Radika used it and so did Mr. Barden. I wouldn't usually use the word shrub in conjunction with a climbing rose. maybe it's just me. Dave, this at least I can clarify - as far as my usage is concerned. In my experience, almost all climbing roses, with some notable exceptions, can be grown as tall, self-supporting shrubs. They are not climbing vine-like plants, to my limited imagination, say as a a grape vine is or a clematis or a jasmine. So, I think of them all as shrubs, and only distinguished by sizes. However: Annie Laurie, Renae - I would never think of these as shrubs, as their canes are absolutely lax, woes is me, for I fo not like to deal with this kind of growth. OTOH, Renae and Annie Laurie are both absolutely GORGEOUS, flowers size, shape and colour very similar to CB, and totally thorn-free. The foliage is a maginificent brilliant green, glossy as all get out and they have neve heard of diseases, ever. They would be ideal to grow as weeping trees or as roses that climb trees. Lady Banks is yet another rose with the same really lax canes and truly climbing habit, and though it is reported as remontant in Southern California, in our cooler Northern CA summers, it is pretty much an once-bloomer. I grow the yellow Lady Banks, and am trying to grow up a Cedar tree. In general, it seems to me that most climbing roses are merely very tall selfsupporting shrubs, and very few are true climbers like a jasmine is; it is perhaps the limitation imposed on me by my imagination. Why Paul calls CB a shrub, I am not sure. I can ask him and see what he has to say. I sure hope that mine gets that big eventually! Oh, if your CB is as big as it is in the picutres in 3 years, never fear - you will have a HUGE rose in a decade. -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
Dave & Radhika I do grow the Ever blooming CB the Heiloom sells. Mine is now a 2 year old plant. It is extremely lax. It has never put out stiff panicles like in the pictures and is now about 15 ft high. It seems to bloom continously there always atleast 30-40 blooms on it. There was a nice spring flush that got washed away. I do seem to have seriously underestimated the size of this thing. It is just the second year and I'm having to do some hedge pruning to keep the basal count down. It puts out basals by the dozen!! All my pruning is seriously cutting down the bloom count. Oh! Heirloom says they got theirs from Sisikiyou. It apparently a very undocumented sport of CB. -- Theo in Zone 5 Kansas City "Radika Kesavan" wrote in message ... dave weil wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan wrote: It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. And rearranging a bit There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles, it blooms all along the canes, like this: http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001." http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes. In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in girth). Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks like (minus the house): http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it." I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours? I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe is the origin of the Spray form. I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about, and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a climber that is sporting into the Spray form? Is it possible that yours is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form? Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this: http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either. What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB? The bush form, a neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento: http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it? You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. ... Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support, not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no training is needed. It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10 and 15 feet tall - for various reasons. Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried to train it beyond what I said above. Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg Nice shots, especially the first one. I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB. How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have! -- Radika California USDA 9 / Sunset 15 |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 13:25:53 -0700, Radika Kesavan
wrote: dave weil wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 08:57:19 -0700, Radika Kesavan wrote: It is hard to tell from the first picture, but it is very clear in the second. your CB blooms are coming out in long panicles, aren't they. That is a characteristic of the Spray form of CB, not the Climber. Well, they come out in panicles the way that my climbing Old Blush and Fairy throw panicles. I just assume that that's the way that the blooms come off of the cane. The big panicles that I pictured are the only ones that were at the end of the growth, not coming off of the canes, which is why I thought it was odd. And rearranging a bit There is a rather healthy specimen of real Climbing Cecile Brunner at the Heritage Garden in San Jose, it is HUGE and perhaps about 8 years old. This one is very different from the Spray Cecile Brunner in the blossoms blooming like a normal rose, not in those long and lovely panicles. Also, this rose does what climbing CB is famous for: a HUGE explosion of blossoms in the first flush, then throws out blossoms in onesies and twosies and may twentysies for the rest of the growing season. You don't know where there's a picture of this rose, or a similar one, do you? From what I have seen, climbing Cecile Brunner does not throw panicles, it blooms all along the canes, like this: http://www.justourpictures.com/roses...lebrunner.html Maybe I'm confusing the term panicle with clusters. Mine seems to bloom in clusters all along the length of the cane, just smaller versions of those two huge panicles that grew directly from basals. PS, actually there are two long basals that grew up into the tree,not just the one that I mentioned. Boy, I REALLY like that La Pactole. Is that a single plant or a "hedge planting"? where can I get one *just* like that? chuckle As I read it, there are at least two plants there, right? That is Regina's picture, and it looks very similar to what it looks like at the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden. Looks like the way that mine blooms, with the exception of those two large ground based panicles. As I said, each of the clusteres just looks like panicles to me (i.e. branching clusters). Is my nomenclature incorrect? Here is a picture of Climbing Cecile Brunner in Baldo Villegas's picture collection - you will have to be patient and let all the pictures load and look for the one marked "Climbing Cecile Brunner arch at McKinley Rose Garden in Sacramento, April 12, 2001." http://www.sactorose.org/roses/55climbers.htm You will see in either case no panicles, just the blooms along the canes. But if you look at the clusters on mine, they just look like small panicles. In the case of the specimen at the Heritage, it is a huge specimen, sort of like a cross between the first picture and the second, or if you can imagine the second picture to contain a ten times bigger climber (in girth). Oh, here - this is exactly what the one at the San Jose Heritage looks like (minus the house): http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html Paul Barden, who is an excellent Rose Fellow, mentions in that little essay, "Like many of the climbing sports, the most often encountered variety of Climbing Cécile Brünner is once-blooming. However, there is a repeat blooming form which is in commerce. I suggest that if you want this rose, that you search for the repeating form. You may want to try Heirloom Old Garden Roses for it." Yes, looks like a larger version of mine when mine is in full bloom. Here's a good example of my plant, from a while back: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB5.jpg Not nearly as full yet, but that's partially because I keep looping the canes back on themselves. I expect the next year to really 'fill in the gaps". But, you can see that the bloom structure seems the same... I got my spray form at a local nursery. Where did you get yours? Mine was an Antique Rose Emporium model. Here's what it looked like a couple of months after I planted it 3 springs ago: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB6.jpg I have grown a Spray Cecile Brunner for nine years now, and it behaved as though it was almost a non-rebloomer and its first three years, and now, it is apretty consistent remontant rose. And the tell-tale sign is that the blossoms come out in those long and lovely panicles. Does your grow as a climber would? I ask because mine has canes that are between 10 and 15 feet long and certainly climbing wherever I train it (which in this case has been up in the branches of the dead tree. Mine grows as a self-supporting giant fountain, with 15 to 20 feet canes all coming out in a fountain, IYKWIM. Sort of like a Cecile Brunner bush that has sported to a giant creature throwing panicles, which I believe is the origin of the Spray form. I have heard that the climbing Cecile Brunner was a sport of the bush form, and in an independent sporting event, the Spray form came about, and that all three can go from one to the other. I do not know if that is really so, but in general, sporting is a display of somatic cell instability and mutation, so is it possible that what you have is a climber that is sporting into the Spray form? That could very well be, as it seems to exhibit traits of both (assuming that panicles and sprays aren't mutually exclusive. Is it possible that yours is the repeat-blooming climbing Cecile Brunner that Paul Barden mentions in his essay that is also sporting in parts to the Spray form? Well, that's why I posted this info in the first place. It definitely didn't go away after the first big flush (although it's a little quiet at the moment, there are still a few blooms and more on the way). Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this: http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm Hmmmm, I don't think that mine is that, because it doesn't have a HUGE fragrance. My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either. Here is a closeup of mine: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg This is from November of last year (showing that this sucker blooms *late* in the season as well) What is normal for CB? I've seen pics of the bush form and it seems the same to me... Eh? Do you mean what is normal for size of CB? No, I meant the sprays of blooms (read clusters or panicles even). The bush form, a neighbour has a couple of specimens, is a 6 feet tall cylinder that is about 3 feet wide. It is in bloom ALL the time. I mean, there are no flushes, it is in bloom ALL the time. Oh, here is a picture from Regina's web site, taken in Sacramento: http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html Whereas the Spray Cecile Brunner gives a minimum of four distinct and large flushes in our garden, though the first one is the largest and the subsequent ones slighlty smaller. As I said, mine has basically been in bloom the whole season. Right now, it seems to be resting a little, but I still have new blooms and more on the way... Hmmmm .... kinda confusing, isn't it? Totally duuuude! chuckle You can shape the Spray Cecile Brunner anyway you like, as long as you leave it a large bush. ... Mine definitely hasn't grown in a bush form. The second year, it threw a HUGE fat basal that's ended up being about 15 feet long, with lots of canes growing off of it. This cane is almost 2 inches wide and is responsible for all of the growth that you see up in the branches. Hmmm ... see, I grow ALL my climbing roses except Renae that has very lax canes as tall, self-supporting bushes. I do not like to train them in any way, and my Spray CB never needed to be trained on any support, not really, not after the third year, and since I have it planted next to a redwood wall-fence, I just tied it to a few hooks driven into the wall in the first couple of years. Now the canes are so thick that no training is needed. Ahhhh, but you *did* train it, eh? I didn't just grow totally self-supported... It is quite tall - like I said, 15 to 20 feet tall canes exist, but generally I try to keep the limbs somewhere between 10 and 15 feet tall - for various reasons. Well, this helps explain, since you used the term bush, which is a term I usually don't use when it comes to climbing roses (but that's just me). Entertaining report which I enjoyed and your observations coincide with mine. Has your spray CB ever exhibited any climbing traits such as the ones that I've described? Some - meaning tall growth; as for as training goes, I have never tried to train it beyond what I said above. Here are two more pics, one of the general growth and one of the new growth on the lower panicle. In the first, it's hard to see, but there are several sprays and a lot of buds. In the second, to the right, you can see the 2 inch wide basal that is the source of all of the growth in the tip part of the tree... http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB3.jpg http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB4.jpg Nice shots, especially the first one. I kind of like the fact that the form mimics the shape of a tree. I'm hoping eventually that the whole thing fills in though... I am beginning to lean towards your having the remontant climbing CB that is in commerce according to Paul Braden as mentioned in http://www.rdrop.com/~paul/climbers/cecile.html Well, that's almost a given, since it's stayed in bloom. I was just wondering if maybe there was a chance that there wasn't actually a "non-remontant" type (I was just sort of guessing that it was possible given the confusion regarding the various forms of this plant, if you catch my drift). I seem to see people talking about it, but rarely talking about spcific plants being that way (for instance, we don't know whether the one pictured on the Barden site is remontant or not, because he doesn't specify). I have never seen this form of the climber, and I do not know if it throws out panicles as you see on your climbing CB. It's weird because mine seems to have the traits of both types, in that it also blooms in clusters along the length of the cane, and yet, paradoxically, stays in bloom for a long time. Confusing, eh? How about contacting Heirloom Old Garden Roses and asking them some questions about the blooming habits of their remontant CB? May be it does bloom in panicles, and combines all the good features of the climber (size of plant), the spray (beautiful presentation of the flowers) and the bush (constant blooming habit)? Sounds miraculous, but you may have got very lucky if this is teh kind of CB you have! That's a good suggestion indeed. This has been a productive conversation, even if there *is* still some uncertainty... |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
"Radika Kesavan" wrote in message
... Incidentally, to add to all this confusion, there are some who claim that there is another rose called Bloomfield Abundance that is being also sold as the Spray Cecile Brunner - here, take a look at this: http://www.ph-rose-gardens.com/00931.htm My Spray Cecile Brunner does not have that wild-looking "longer sepals that may extend like flags above the buds," but I have seen it on some gorgeous CB specimens around here. I do not know the truth of this either. I had wanted to get a climbing Cecile Brunner but lived on a small house block and wasn't sure how to deal with a 20ft monster. When I went to my local rose society's field day (where we visit the rose garden of one of the members), the host had a Bloomfield Abundance and it had the longer sepals that you described. It seemed to be the perfect compromise as it is still tall but not huge. She very generously allowed me to take some cuttings and I have around 6 little cuttings that are 3 months old. It also had a beautiful, sweet fragrance. Kirra Brisbane, Australia zone 10 |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
In article , dave weil
wrote: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny? |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass
wrote: In article , dave weil wrote: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny? If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate. I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly is a panicle? BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush? Reblooming or not? |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
In article , dave weil
wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass wrote: In article , dave weil wrote: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny? If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate. The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have little spines. I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly is a panicle? Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles are about 2' x 2'. BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush? Reblooming or not? Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross. Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not. -- -=- Cass USDA Zone 9 Left Coast www.rosefog.us |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:55:12 -0700, Cass
wrote: In article , dave weil wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass wrote: In article , dave weil wrote: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny? If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate. The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have little spines. Mine don't. Very smooth. I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly is a panicle? Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles are about 2' x 2'. On mine, the panicles can be anywhere from supporting 4 - 8 blooms or being an umbrella that holds 20 or 30. Use your imagination to visualize the size. In any case, those panicles coming off of the cane are a bit smaller than 2' X 2'. I'd say that from stem to bloom tip, they are no mare than about a foot and probably no wider than about a foot, for the bigger ones. Many of them are actually smaller and are probably only about 6" X 6". The two sprays on the side of the plant came up as basals, so they could be considered to be 36 inches long, I suppose (from the base of the plant). The ones that come out of the canes are a bit smaller than what you describe (see above) BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush? Reblooming or not? Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross. Are you conflating "Spray" CB with "Improved" CD here? Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not. Nope. Not spiny. I've probably muddied the waters even more. I know *I'm* confused! |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl)
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 10:55:12 -0700, Cass
wrote: In article , dave weil wrote: On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 19:52:26 -0700, Cass wrote: In article , dave weil wrote: http://mywpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/CB7.jpg That certainly looks like my plain old Cecile Brunner in bud. Are the pedicels (http://members.aol.com/mmmavocad3/RoseAnat2.html) spiny? If you mean "do they have prehensile thorns", no, they are smooth. If that's not what you mean, then you need to elaborate. The pedicel is the stem that comes down out of the receptacle (which forms the hip) within a spray. On my Cecile Brunner, the pedicels have little spines. Mine don't. Very smooth. I assume that pedicels is a little different than panicles. Or am I wrong? I assume that the main stem of the cluster is a pencuncle while each branch is a pedicel, right? I would guess that the whole assembly is a panicle? Yep, the whole thing is a panicle. A panicle is a spray. On Sally Holmes they can be 24 inches long. On Susan Louise, I have one that's this [spreading arms full width] wide and this [holding one arm over head and other down by leg] high. On my Cecile Brunner, the panicles are about 2' x 2'. On mine, the panicles can be anywhere from supporting 4 - 8 blooms or being an umbrella that holds 20 or 30. Use your imagination to visualize the size. In any case, those panicles coming off of the cane are a bit smaller than 2' X 2'. I'd say that from stem to bloom tip, they are no mare than about a foot and probably no wider than about a foot, for the bigger ones. Many of them are actually smaller and are probably only about 6" X 6". The two sprays on the side of the plant came up as basals, so they could be considered to be 36 inches long, I suppose (from the base of the plant). The ones that come out of the canes are a bit smaller than what you describe (see above) BTW, what is your "plain ole Cecile Brunner"? Climbing or bush? Reblooming or not? Bush. As I understand it, the climbing form is an old sport from the late 1800's that doesn't rebloom well, whereas Spray Cecile Brunner is a more recent, reblooming sport which is sometimes sold and confused with 'Bloomfield Abundancer." Vintage says that Spray Cecile Brunner is a nice 5 foot shrub. To complicate matters, Improved Cecile Brunner isn't a sport and is derived from a new cross. Are you conflating "Spray" CB with "Improved" CD here? Somewhere I read that the spines on the pedicels are diagnostic.... but of what, I don't recall. Since my bush form has spiny pedicels, I thought I'd ask if your climber has the spines or not. Nope. Not spiny. I've probably muddied the waters even more. I know *I'm* confused! |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
ISO Cecile Bruner bush in Denver | Roses | |||
CL Cecile Brunner Growth habit? | Roses | |||
poor Cl. Cecile Brunner! | Roses | |||
Spray Cecile Brunner Cecile Brunner (Cl) | Roses | |||
Cecile Brunner (Cl) | Roses |