In article ,
(NC) wrote:

and more about thorns (always bursting my football on the roses as a
kid used to drive me mad!)

The wall is your neighbours? If I were him, I'd *insist* you planted a
football deterrent!

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
A useful bit of gardening software at http://www.netservs.com/garden/

"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:49:41 -0000
"Rupert" wrote:


"Emery Davis" wrote in message
...
[snip]

BTW, I received my Kalopanax septemlobus a few days ago, it is
a truly bizarre looking thing, a 1.5 m stick with a single large, flat
brown bud on the top, entirely covered with very nasty looking thorns.
[]
It took me a while to find a decent picture of the leaves. Well
worthwhile.
Your initial description reminded me of the horsechestnuts that spring up
around here as a result of squirrels burying the nuts from a tree several
hundred yards away.
A straight stick with a bud that looks quite exotic--followed by a couple
of
lovely leaves.
The nearest I have got to your Kalo is a Tetrapanax which has managed to
survive since I got it recently-even with a few hard frosts.



Braver man than I. That's a cracking plant, Tetrapanax, but without
a greenhouse I wouldn't try it here in Normandy.

The Kalopanax is meant to be quite rustic, I was told the scion
was taken from a tree in Berlin, and the nursery is in the Haute
Loire, where they see -20º. So I'm unlikely to freeze it. If
things ever get back to normal I might drown it, I suppose.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies


The Tetrapanax thingy is just an experiment. I got confused by the different
descriptions of its nature. I like the various Fatsia Japonica so I thought
TP might be a good addition. I assumed that frost would raze it to the
ground but then it might re grow. At the moment it is stood proud and
defiant of the frost.
Thank you David Poole for your advice

Global warming is a wonderful thing . Your Kalopanax may drown but my
TeraPanax could well survive:-)

The wall is your neighbours? If I were him, I'd *insist* you planted a
football deterrent!


But its a detatched garage wall - so no issue with the noise of banging
balls against it.

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

In terms of flowering climbers, you have clematis (most), honeysuckle
(the northern European ones), hydrangea and relatives, Akebia quinata,
WINTER jasmine, and precious little else. Don't bother with most of
the jasmines or passion flowers - they won't like it.

That being said, I do grow Passiflora incarnata on a north-east wall,
but it would do much better if I had a rain shadow facing south.



Climbers can also be substituted with things that can be grown against a
wall like chaenomeles, Mine's on a north wall and some flowers most of
the year, I just hack the bits off that grow forwards. Cut any growth to
about two or three buds seems to encourage flowering buds. Once that is
on the wall clematis will twine through it.
If it's someone else's wall I'd be very careful not to have anything
that might get out of hand or grow up into the roof of the garage like
ivies etc. He might move one day and the new neighbour may not be so
obliging!

Charlie Pridham gave several suggestions for good north facing clematis
which might be in the archives. They are worth a try.

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In article , Sacha
writes

Whoa! Please tell me that the Japanese Maple is not going to go in a spot
that is windy? They're incredibly fussy about that and about being wet at
the root, too. Cold winds, in particular, are very bad news for them.
These are not easy plants, beautiful though they are indeed.

I've lost three to wind burn and also to too much sun! They are
temperamental in the extreme as I know someone who has one growing at
the end of the front garden on a slope in full sun and wind and that
one's fine. Maybe some species aren't so vulnerable?

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes
The message
from NC contains these words:

It will still be exhaustingly audible to the neighbours. You've got
nice neighbours, but I promise you that the rythmic thud of a kid's
ball/trampoline/drumkit for hours on end can strain the patience of the
best; especially galling for yours if the sound comes courtesy of their
own garage wall.


Don't think so - when I reach back to the dim and distant, I remember
playing football in the garden - and *if* the ball went "out of bounds"
- ie, into prickly stuff - it got burst. We tried to avoid this, just
as we tried to avoid the ball going into the neighbours' gardens. The
idea wasn't to bounce the ball against the garage - it was to play
football.

--
regards andyw

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:07:51 +0000
Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

Whoa! Please tell me that the Japanese Maple is not going to go in a spot
that is windy? They're incredibly fussy about that and about being wet at
the root, too. Cold winds, in particular, are very bad news for them.
These are not easy plants, beautiful though they are indeed.

I've lost three to wind burn and also to too much sun! They are
temperamental in the extreme as I know someone who has one growing at
the end of the front garden on a slope in full sun and wind and that
one's fine. Maybe some species aren't so vulnerable?


Hello Janet,

I'm don't doubt Sacha is far more experienced with these, being in
the business, but since she may have missed your post I thought I'd
jump in.

Of the hundreds of cultivars of A. palmatum there are many that
are tougher than others. Until established they are all difficult,
though, and your experience of losing 3 is by no means unique.

In general the green, unvariegated varieties (not yellowish) do
fine in full sun. There is very often a cultivar that will be more
amenable to sun and a little tougher, or smaller or whatever.
An example is using 'Eddisbury' instead of 'Sango Kaku'.

Typically the dark green leaved varieties burn less than the red,
but there are red ones that do fine in sun (and a some wind),
like Bloodgood or Chitose Yama (english or european/japanese
version).

Constant maritime wind is impossible for them, so
in very coastal areas shelter is not an option.

I grow mine in more or less exposed positions, depending on
cultivar. I live on a hill crest and it is very windy at times,
but the seem to do well enough. One thing I've found is that
they take better if the size is at least 60-80 cm. Very
small I pot up for a couple of years.

The bible of the species is "Japanese Maples" by J.D. Vertrees
updated by Peter Gregory. It's a very good reference and
well worth having. There is an appendix in the back that
lists -- by cultivar -- final size, time of interest, light requirements,
etc.

HTH

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

Janet Tweedy wrote:
Charlie Pridham gave several suggestions for good north facing clematis
which might be in the archives. They are worth a try.

There's a few: 'Mrs Cholmondeley', 'Nelly Moser', 'Perle d'Azur',
'Victoria' and any form the Viticella Group. My friend Rachel has a
nursery in cumbria ran with her parents. I was looking for one north
facing, with the name Penny in memory of a friend who died a few week
ago. Sadly couldn't find any but she suggested a rose, Penny Lane,
which is perfect. They are very helpful and friendly. Do check them
at:-

http://www.ukclematis.co.uk/

In article , Emery Davis
writes
In general the green, unvariegated varieties (not yellowish) do
fine in full sun. There is very often a cultivar that will be more
amenable to sun and a little tougher, or smaller or whatever.
An example is using 'Eddisbury' instead of 'Sango Kaku'.

Typically the dark green leaved varieties burn less than the red,
but there are red ones that do fine in sun (and a some wind),
like Bloodgood or Chitose Yama (english or european/japanese
version).



Thanks Emery I might just have another go, with potting up small
specimens in mind!

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On 23/2/06 10:36, in article , "Emery
Davis" wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:07:51 +0000
Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

Whoa! Please tell me that the Japanese Maple is not going to go in a spot
that is windy? They're incredibly fussy about that and about being wet at
the root, too. Cold winds, in particular, are very bad news for them.
These are not easy plants, beautiful though they are indeed.

I've lost three to wind burn and also to too much sun! They are
temperamental in the extreme as I know someone who has one growing at
the end of the front garden on a slope in full sun and wind and that
one's fine. Maybe some species aren't so vulnerable?


Hello Janet,

I'm don't doubt Sacha is far more experienced with these, being in
the business, but since she may have missed your post I thought I'd
jump in.

My husband is the one with the real experience. I just married him six years
ago. ;-) But yes, I did see Janet's post but didn't think I had anything to
add to it. There are bound to be cultivars that are less 'fussy', though I
don't know which they are, myself. All I do know is that if we get any
Japanese maples brought back, it is always because of too much wind burn and
over-watering. But *always*. We've had one or two customers who absolutely
swear they haven't over watered, so Ray lifts the poor thing out of the pot
and it is dripping water all over his feet!

Of the hundreds of cultivars of A. palmatum there are many that
are tougher than others. Until established they are all difficult,
though, and your experience of losing 3 is by no means unique.

In general the green, unvariegated varieties (not yellowish) do
fine in full sun. There is very often a cultivar that will be more
amenable to sun and a little tougher, or smaller or whatever.
An example is using 'Eddisbury' instead of 'Sango Kaku'.

We have Sango Kaku on a corner near the fishpond and while it's a sunny
spot, its also windy at times. The tree is now about 5' tall and has taken
a little damage from the wind but nothing enormous and has come back quite
happily. I had one against a wall in my Jersey garden which had bright red
stems in winter and the brightest possible golden leaves in autumn. I never
did find out its name but Ray thinks it was Sango Kaku. I am not at all
sure of that, myself. To my memory, it was brighter in all its parts than
that.

Typically the dark green leaved varieties burn less than the red,
but there are red ones that do fine in sun (and a some wind),
like Bloodgood or Chitose Yama (english or european/japanese
version).

Constant maritime wind is impossible for them, so
in very coastal areas shelter is not an option.

I grow mine in more or less exposed positions, depending on
cultivar. I live on a hill crest and it is very windy at times,
but the seem to do well enough. One thing I've found is that
they take better if the size is at least 60-80 cm. Very
small I pot up for a couple of years.

The bible of the species is "Japanese Maples" by J.D. Vertrees
updated by Peter Gregory. It's a very good reference and
well worth having. There is an appendix in the back that
lists -- by cultivar -- final size, time of interest, light requirements,
etc.

This is obviously something you know a great deal about and I wonder if you
could take the time to list the cultivars that you grow in the windy areas.
I think that would be very helpful to have in the archives because it's
remarkable how often questions about these lovely trees arise.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
)

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes
The message
from newsb contains these words:

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes
The message
from NC contains these words:

It will still be exhaustingly audible to the neighbours. You've got
nice neighbours, but I promise you that the rythmic thud of a kid's
ball/trampoline/drumkit for hours on end can strain the patience of the
best; especially galling for yours if the sound comes courtesy of their
own garage wall.


Don't think so - when I reach back to the dim and distant, I remember
playing football in the garden - and *if* the ball went "out of bounds"
- ie, into prickly stuff - it got burst. We tried to avoid this, just
as we tried to avoid the ball going into the neighbours' gardens. The
idea wasn't to bounce the ball against the garage - it was to play
football.

Maybe you missed the start of the thread? You edited out the context
of my post.

On the contrary - I was referring to the fact that when I was young we
did the opposite.


Someone suggested, the kind neighbour who owns the garage wall might
prefer the OP to plant prickly climbers. So that lads won't ever
deliberately use his ball-bursting garage wall for footie practice.

Apart from the fact that we didn't use the garage wall for anything
much, we would also have been aware of "intruding" on the neighbours
"environment" by banging anything repeatedly on it. The garage wall in
one house we had did have climbing roses on - and it was an accident
when the ball went there. The next house didn't - but we still didn't
use it as a goal or ball returner.

Besides and perhaps more to the point, in my experience, a garage wall
with non-thorny plants would be as effective at stopping it being used
as a target. I don't think many kids want to be vandals in their own
garden (where it can be see who is responsible for mashing all the
plants). If they are, there is something wrong, I think.


Kids today conserve their energy :-(. They often use a wall as goal
backstop, or for kicking a ball against to practise ball-control skills.
It can be a noise nuisance.

I'm sure it could be a nuisance when it happens. However, I'm not so
sure that your statement re the activities of kids today is quite as
pervasive as it implies to me. At the age when they're likely to want
to play football they seem to have plenty of energy to me...

Of course, the degree to which kids consider others will be very
variable - often resulting from what their parents instil in them.
However, of those that play football in their gardens, I'd expect there
still to be more "good" than "bad".

Of course, a garden sans thorns at all is in any event, very unlikely.
Good job too - I'm sure their presence helps to encourage better
accuracy and profits for ball makers - in inverse proprtion.

--
regards andyw

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:33:02 +0000
Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Emery Davis
writes
In general the green, unvariegated varieties (not yellowish) do
fine in full sun. There is very often a cultivar that will be more
amenable to sun and a little tougher, or smaller or whatever.
An example is using 'Eddisbury' instead of 'Sango Kaku'.

Typically the dark green leaved varieties burn less than the red,
but there are red ones that do fine in sun (and a some wind),
like Bloodgood or Chitose Yama (english or european/japanese
version).



Thanks Emery I might just have another go, with potting up small
specimens in mind!


Particularly since the 2 year grafts are mostly really so very cheap:
9-12 EU here. Hard for the maple addict to resist!

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:28:50 +0000
Sacha wrote:

On 23/2/06 10:36, in article , "Emery
Davis" wrote:

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:07:51 +0000
Janet Tweedy wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

Whoa! Please tell me that the Japanese Maple is not going to go in a spot
that is windy? They're incredibly fussy about that and about being wet at
the root, too. Cold winds, in particular, are very bad news for them.
These are not easy plants, beautiful though they are indeed.

I've lost three to wind burn and also to too much sun! They are
temperamental in the extreme as I know someone who has one growing at
the end of the front garden on a slope in full sun and wind and that
one's fine. Maybe some species aren't so vulnerable?


Hello Janet,

I'm don't doubt Sacha is far more experienced with these, being in
the business, but since she may have missed your post I thought I'd
jump in.

My husband is the one with the real experience. I just married him six years
ago. ;-) But yes, I did see Janet's post but didn't think I had anything to
add to it. There are bound to be cultivars that are less 'fussy', though I
don't know which they are, myself. All I do know is that if we get any
Japanese maples brought back, it is always because of too much wind burn and
over-watering. But *always*. We've had one or two customers who absolutely
swear they haven't over watered, so Ray lifts the poor thing out of the pot
and it is dripping water all over his feet!

Well, you're still better equipped to comment than I! I am certainly
no expert, but I have made a little study of maples, much to my
wallet's -- and my wife's -- regret. (Every time I show up with a new
maple, Adele exclaims something along the lines of "and where are
my lilacs?")

For sure, wet feet is the number one problem with palmatums. Our
soil here, surrounded by peat bogs, is hardly ideal; so planting out
requires a good amount of soil prep and _really_ big holes. Not
to mention the pulling out of enormous rocks. But once established
they seem pretty happy.


Of the hundreds of cultivars of A. palmatum there are many that
are tougher than others. Until established they are all difficult,
though, and your experience of losing 3 is by no means unique.

In general the green, unvariegated varieties (not yellowish) do
fine in full sun. There is very often a cultivar that will be more
amenable to sun and a little tougher, or smaller or whatever.
An example is using 'Eddisbury' instead of 'Sango Kaku'.

We have Sango Kaku on a corner near the fishpond and while it's a sunny
spot, its also windy at times. The tree is now about 5' tall and has taken
a little damage from the wind but nothing enormous and has come back quite
happily. I had one against a wall in my Jersey garden which had bright red
stems in winter and the brightest possible golden leaves in autumn. I never
did find out its name but Ray thinks it was Sango Kaku. I am not at all
sure of that, myself. To my memory, it was brighter in all its parts than
that.

I guess Ray probably knows his business! There are other maples with
bright red wood that go yellow in fall, like A. x conspicuum 'Phoenix', but
I can't think of another in the Palmata section off hand. Sounds like
maybe it's just a very good Sango Kaku.


Typically the dark green leaved varieties burn less than the red,
but there are red ones that do fine in sun (and a some wind),
like Bloodgood or Chitose Yama (english or european/japanese
version).

Constant maritime wind is impossible for them, so
in very coastal areas shelter is not an option.

I grow mine in more or less exposed positions, depending on
cultivar. I live on a hill crest and it is very windy at times,
but the seem to do well enough. One thing I've found is that
they take better if the size is at least 60-80 cm. Very
small I pot up for a couple of years.

The bible of the species is "Japanese Maples" by J.D. Vertrees
updated by Peter Gregory. It's a very good reference and
well worth having. There is an appendix in the back that
lists -- by cultivar -- final size, time of interest, light requirements,
etc.

This is obviously something you know a great deal about and I wonder if you
could take the time to list the cultivars that you grow in the windy areas.
I think that would be very helpful to have in the archives because it's
remarkable how often questions about these lovely trees arise.

Again, I don't present myself as any sort of expert. But here are the
"japanese" maples I grow by exposition. Which is not to say these are
the best situations, just what I've ended up with.

In full sun, full wind:

A. palmatum 'Okagami'
A. palmatum 'Shojo'
A. palmatum 'Chitose yama' (japanese version)
A. palmatum 'Mirte'
A. palmatum 'Sango kaku'
A. palmatum 'Shishi gashira'
A. palmatum 'Seiryu'
A. japonicum 'Vitifolium'
A. shirasawanum 'Autumn Moon'
A. pseudosieboldianum
A. buergerianum

In half or less sun, at least some protection:

A. palmatum 'Higasa yama'
A. palmatum 'Orange Dream'
A. palmatum 'Villa Taranto'
A. palmatum 'Aka shigitatsu sawa' (if it lives)
A. palmatum 'Ariadne'
A. palmatum 'Beni tsukasa'
A. shirasawanum 'Aureum'
A. rufinerve 'Winter Gold' (? time will tell)
A. rufinerve 'Albolimbatum' (Hatsuyuki kaede)
A. pictum 'Hoshi yadori' (takes wind)

I am interested in many other maples but that just about rounds
out the "japanese" contingent. In context of the thread I will almost
certainly plant both 'Bloodgood' and 'Õsakazuki' in exposed situations
specifically because they have the reputation of being trouble free.
Although I've been looking I have yet to find very good specimens
of either at around the 1 m size. Maples in general are a real
pain in the rump to get in France, mostly do to the arcane tax
laws that prevent nurseries from keeping stock.

The above vary in size from young to about 12 ft. The exposed ones are
all established except for pseudosieboldianum, which I expect will
be trouble free. (There, I probably just killed it...)

Anyway, I hope the above list may prove useful to the adventurous!

-E

--
Emery Davis
You can reply to ecom
by removing the well known companies

On 23/2/06 23:55, in article , "Emery
Davis" wrote:

snip of great information

Anyway, I hope the above list may prove useful to the adventurous!

It certainly has! In fact, this bit of the thread has inspired us to plant
a 'grove' of maples around what was the duck pond! We're going to let it be
a wildlife pond now and as it is up against a fairly high granite wall,
won't be in direct path of the east wind that hurls itself against our front
door with monotonous regularity at this time of year. I'm looking for Acer
palmatum Coonara Pygmy both for ourselves and to stock in the nursery. It
sounds and looks a beautiful little tree and I think it would be popular.
So my thanks to everyone who has started this off!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
)

"La Puce" wrote in message
ups.com...

Janet Tweedy wrote:
Charlie Pridham gave several suggestions for good north facing clematis
which might be in the archives. They are worth a try.

There's a few: 'Mrs Cholmondeley', 'Nelly Moser', 'Perle d'Azur',
'Victoria' and any form the Viticella Group. My friend Rachel has a
nursery in cumbria ran with her parents. I was looking for one north
facing, with the name Penny in memory of a friend who died a few week
ago. Sadly couldn't find any but she suggested a rose, Penny Lane,
which is perfect. They are very helpful and friendly. Do check them
at:-

http://www.ukclematis.co.uk/

Are we talking about the Rachel from Barkers? if so I think they may have
closed, I seem remember something a year or so back in the clematis journal
I get, shame if it is true.

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)