On 9 Aug 2006 03:15:15 -0700, "Evan" wrote:

©¿© wrote:
You sound like a real ******. I wonder how long before you feel the
same about the children? Pets are for life, not for fun.

I'll give you a hint, it's not ME who sounds like a ******.

It is, and you are!

Hedgehogs
and babies weren't actually on our minds when our oldest son wanted the
dog in the first place. You don't sound like the cleverest bloke out
there, so I doubt you'd have planned for every eventuality either.

You're the idiot who apparently failed to realize pets and kids are
for life, not fun.

In my defence, I knew we probably weren't the best pet friendly family.
But it's the modern wife with the VETO power, not the other way around.
We adopted the dog out of another home where a woman's shift patterns
meant she couldn't have the dog. We didn't (and I would never) pay a
breeder to add another unwanted and unloved animal to the world. She's
been well treated and will continue to be.

Until it is dumped once again!




Malcolm Ogilvie of on the suggestion he
copied Konters book.


" You are making yourself look foolish. The book on Grebes by Andre
Konter that was published in 2001 was entitled 'Grebes of OUR World'.
My book, published only this month, is entitled 'Grebes of THE World',
and as such is entirely different. The similarity of the front covers
is quite coincidental. My book IS the first ever devoted to Grebes.

Malcolm Ogilivie."

...............................................

KONTER (Andre) - Grebes of our World. Visiting all Species on Five
Continents - 2001, 8vo. 187pp. Colour photographs, line drawings. A
description of the 22 species of grebes, their natural history, ecology
and behaviour.


Grebes of the World
Malcolm Ogilvie
The book starts with an authoritative introduction on the origin,
evolution, distribution, physiology and behaviour of grebes, followed by
accounts of each of the 22 species


Malcolm it looks as though Konter might dispute that statement!

Rob

"Yes, indeed, what I said was wrong and I apologise to Andre Konter,


Malcolm Ogilvie"

................................................

The error I made was in a chatty piece about the actual writing of the
book which I posted to a non-birdwatching newsgroup

M Ogilvie


You clearly and explicitly stated that yours was the first book on the
subject, in the full knowledge that the topic had recently been
covered very thoroughly in Konter's book.
The facts speak for themselves. You are a liar who only had the grace
to own up when you had been found out - you even persisted in giving
the impression that you were the first to write it *after* I had drawn
attention to your untruth. Your apology comes a little late.
You do yourself no credit in introducing other, wholly irrelevant
matters in order to deflect criticism from your behaviour. Shame on
you.

Paul

©¿© wrote:
You're the idiot who apparently failed to realize pets and kids are
for life, not fun.

She's been well treated and will continue to be.

Until it is dumped once again!


The only fan of your wit is yourself. Unless YOU want the dog, save
your comments for the other weiners at the self-importance club you
belong to.

If your GP hasn't already recommended a vasectomy, investigate the
option asap.

"Evan" wrote in message
ups.com...
I swear to God I'm going to start using these darn things as footballs!
While I have no problem with hedgehogs per se, they drive my dog mad
when they saunter into our back yard at night.

In the morning, I find "micro-craters" all over in the grass where the
dog has encircled the hedgehogs while barking and pawing at them.
Whether she's trying to eat the things or make friends I do not know,
but I've seen her pick them up in her mouth and carry them into her
kennel.

Short of creating a diabolical set of wooden obstacles that hang on my
iron gate, is there any household substance that might discourage a
hedgehog from visiting?


Why don't you construct a wire compound around your dog's kennel, thus
keeping the animals apart?

On 9 Aug 2006 03:36:06 -0700, "Evan" wrote:

©¿© wrote:
You're the idiot who apparently failed to realize pets and kids are
for life, not fun.

She's been well treated and will continue to be.

Until it is dumped once again!


The only fan of your wit is yourself. Unless YOU want the dog,

Why should someone else take your dog, just because you're bored of
it? I'd bang you up just for talking about dumping it.



%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%





Malcolm Ogilvie of on the suggestion he
copied Konters book.


" You are making yourself look foolish. The book on Grebes by Andre
Konter that was published in 2001 was entitled 'Grebes of OUR World'.
My book, published only this month, is entitled 'Grebes of THE World',
and as such is entirely different. The similarity of the front covers
is quite coincidental. My book IS the first ever devoted to Grebes.

Malcolm Ogilivie."

...............................................

KONTER (Andre) - Grebes of our World. Visiting all Species on Five
Continents - 2001, 8vo. 187pp. Colour photographs, line drawings. A
description of the 22 species of grebes, their natural history, ecology
and behaviour.


Grebes of the World
Malcolm Ogilvie
The book starts with an authoritative introduction on the origin,
evolution, distribution, physiology and behaviour of grebes, followed by
accounts of each of the 22 species


Malcolm it looks as though Konter might dispute that statement!

Rob

"Yes, indeed, what I said was wrong and I apologise to Andre Konter,


Malcolm Ogilvie"

................................................

The error I made was in a chatty piece about the actual writing of the
book which I posted to a non-birdwatching newsgroup

M Ogilvie


You clearly and explicitly stated that yours was the first book on the
subject, in the full knowledge that the topic had recently been
covered very thoroughly in Konter's book.
The facts speak for themselves. You are a liar who only had the grace
to own up when you had been found out - you even persisted in giving
the impression that you were the first to write it *after* I had drawn
attention to your untruth. Your apology comes a little late.
You do yourself no credit in introducing other, wholly irrelevant
matters in order to deflect criticism from your behaviour. Shame on
you.

Paul

On 9 Aug 2006 01:55:34 -0700, "Evan" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
However, we've now gone waaaay OT for urg so let's return to your hedgehogs.
Don't, please, don't, try to force them out of your garden because of your
domestic situation with the dog. Not only are they delightful creatures in
their own right, they are real friends to gardeners AND their habitat is
sparse and undergoing constant change or even demolition! They do need to
find homes in which to raise their own babies so think of yourselves as
kindred spirits and find a new home for the dog or a place she can safely
sleep at night. Winter will be here in a few short months and a housedog
cannot kindly be left outside all night.


No the dog's not really the original topic, but because the lawn
digging is a major part of the problem, the insight into dog behaviour
isn't unwelcome. I'm having flashbacks to my University degree days
now....make it stop!!!

;-)

She's a black lab/staffie cross that stands above my knees. She's spent
about 25% of her nights (summer and winter) outdoors in a doghouse with
bedding. So size-wise and based on her history, she's not strictly a
house-dog, though she obviously prefers to overnight in the house.

I've talked to many folks who are adament one way or the other that
bigger dogs should be definitely left outside (or inside) the house. My
wife and I were pretty middle of the road...at least until the pooing
"incident".

I think the problem here is that the dog is leading a sort of dual life. On
the one hand she's a house pet who is allowed in sometimes and at others,
she's treated like a working dog who lives outside. I don't know anybody
who has working dogs who treats them as pets half the time and working dogs
the other half. The might be pets who work e.g. are shot over or they might
be working dogs who live outside ALL the time but not a mixture of both.
The breed combination you mention needs quite a lot of exercise and without
it, boredom becomes a major problem so she's into digging up the lawn or
chewing the furniture or shredding carpets etc. Some of that is pure
attention seeking, too. One of our JRs rushes to his blanket and starts
chewing it when people other than family, come to the house. He probably
feels a bit threatened by strangers actually in the house (as opposed to on
the nursery) so he does a sort of displacement ativity which also,
incidentally, gets him our attention if it is of the "STOP IT" variety! The
Lab bit of your dog is deeply affectionate and people-orientated and is
probably missing the fuss and attention she got before the babies arrived.
Up until then, she was your baby!

If any kind and friendly folk in Walsall or Birmingham can afford the
time to run and play with her, I'd definitely consider rehoming my very
friendly dog with them. We simply can't devote enough time to her any
more with two new babies. Let me know.

If you are going to re-home her, I think that's probably best for all of you
but I'm only going on what you've written here. But do check out the people
and their home before you let her go. Or put her with a good and reputable
animal rescue centre that you know won't put her down after x number of
weeks. Ask your local vet if they know of someone who would like her. IF
you can take her to the park or somewhere she can have a good run while you
push the babies around in their buggies, then she'll be a happier dog - same
if you can find a corner of the house/kitchen/utility room/under the
stairs/kneehole of your desk where her bed and bowls can be kept. In about
two or three years time she can be a real companion for your children; the
question seems to be how to handle her in that time.
snip
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(email address on website)

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:48:01 +0100, "BAC"
wrote:


"Evan" wrote in message
oups.com...
I swear to God I'm going to start using these darn things as footballs!
While I have no problem with hedgehogs per se, they drive my dog mad
when they saunter into our back yard at night.

In the morning, I find "micro-craters" all over in the grass where the
dog has encircled the hedgehogs while barking and pawing at them.
Whether she's trying to eat the things or make friends I do not know,
but I've seen her pick them up in her mouth and carry them into her
kennel.

Short of creating a diabolical set of wooden obstacles that hang on my
iron gate, is there any household substance that might discourage a
hedgehog from visiting?


Why don't you construct a wire compound around your dog's kennel, thus
keeping the animals apart?


The hogs would not venture into a dog kennel.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%





Malcolm Ogilvie of on the suggestion he
copied Konters book.


" You are making yourself look foolish. The book on Grebes by Andre
Konter that was published in 2001 was entitled 'Grebes of OUR World'.
My book, published only this month, is entitled 'Grebes of THE World',
and as such is entirely different. The similarity of the front covers
is quite coincidental. My book IS the first ever devoted to Grebes.

Malcolm Ogilivie."

...............................................

KONTER (Andre) - Grebes of our World. Visiting all Species on Five
Continents - 2001, 8vo. 187pp. Colour photographs, line drawings. A
description of the 22 species of grebes, their natural history, ecology
and behaviour.


Grebes of the World
Malcolm Ogilvie
The book starts with an authoritative introduction on the origin,
evolution, distribution, physiology and behaviour of grebes, followed by
accounts of each of the 22 species


Malcolm it looks as though Konter might dispute that statement!

Rob

"Yes, indeed, what I said was wrong and I apologise to Andre Konter,


Malcolm Ogilvie"

................................................

The error I made was in a chatty piece about the actual writing of the
book which I posted to a non-birdwatching newsgroup

M Ogilvie


You clearly and explicitly stated that yours was the first book on the
subject, in the full knowledge that the topic had recently been
covered very thoroughly in Konter's book.
The facts speak for themselves. You are a liar who only had the grace
to own up when you had been found out - you even persisted in giving
the impression that you were the first to write it *after* I had drawn
attention to your untruth. Your apology comes a little late.
You do yourself no credit in introducing other, wholly irrelevant
matters in order to deflect criticism from your behaviour. Shame on
you.

Paul

BAC wrote:
Why don't you construct a wire compound around your dog's kennel, thus
keeping the animals apart?

Also a consideration. Nothing short of a heavy duty metal enclosure
would keep our tank, I mean dog from bustin through.

"©¿©" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:48:01 +0100, "BAC"
wrote:


"Evan" wrote in message
oups.com...
I swear to God I'm going to start using these darn things as footballs!
While I have no problem with hedgehogs per se, they drive my dog mad
when they saunter into our back yard at night.

In the morning, I find "micro-craters" all over in the grass where the
dog has encircled the hedgehogs while barking and pawing at them.
Whether she's trying to eat the things or make friends I do not know,
but I've seen her pick them up in her mouth and carry them into her
kennel.

Short of creating a diabolical set of wooden obstacles that hang on my
iron gate, is there any household substance that might discourage a
hedgehog from visiting?


Why don't you construct a wire compound around your dog's kennel, thus
keeping the animals apart?


The hogs would not venture into a dog kennel.


No, but if the dog is fenced off the lawn, it won't be digging it up.

"Evan" wrote in message
oups.com...
BAC wrote:
Why don't you construct a wire compound around your dog's kennel, thus
keeping the animals apart?

Also a consideration. Nothing short of a heavy duty metal enclosure
would keep our tank, I mean dog from bustin through.


Obviously, you'd have to use appropriate materials. Another possible
solution would be to put a hedgehog proof fence around your garden. Yet
another, pave over the lawn - it wouldn't stop the hedgehogs, but it would
stop the dog from scuffing the grass. But having read through the thread, it
does sound like the best solution all round would be for you to pass the dog
on to an organisation which will find it suitable new owners. Perhaps with a
donation to pay for its keep whilst they are looking.

Sacha wrote:

I think the problem here is that the dog is leading a sort of dual life. On
the one hand she's a house pet who is allowed in sometimes and at others,
she's treated like a working dog who lives outside.

We should have always left her outside, but of course we felt sorry for
her on cold or rainy nights despite the fact she had a very insulated
dog house. Keeping her in avoided the hedgehog confrontations as well.


The breed combination you mention needs quite a lot of exercise and without
it, boredom becomes a major problem so she's into digging up the lawn or
chewing the furniture or shredding carpets etc.

To her credit, she doesn't do anything bad to seek attention. The lawn
digging is strictly her trying to rouse the hedgehogs. I've seen it.
She encircles the things pawing at them. Of course she doesn't have
opposable thumbs, so she only manages to mess the grass up while trying
to "pick up" the hedgehogs.


Lab bit of your dog is deeply affectionate and people-orientated and is
probably missing the fuss and attention she got before the babies arrived.

The dog loves the kids. She's always gentle with them. My two year old
loves hugging and petting the dog (and dumping spades of sand on her
back, and sitting on her when she's lying down, and pulling her tail,
etc...)


But do check out the people
and their home before you let her go. Or put her with a good and reputable
animal rescue centre that you know won't put her down after x number of
weeks.

Of course I would.


you can take her to the park or somewhere she can have a good run while you
push the babies around in their buggies, then she'll be a happier dog

We do our best, but I know it's not good enough. Very unfair on the
dog.


if you can find a corner of the house/kitchen/utility room/under the
stairs/kneehole of your desk where her bed and bowls can be kept.

Our end terrace has had all nooks and crannies taken up by kids and
kid-related paraphenelia. This is why the dog has had to go outside.


two or three years time she can be a real companion for your children; the
question seems to be how to handle her in that time.

This is very true.

Evan wrote:

Sacha wrote:
A lot of dog behaviourists advise
getting dogs *after* the baby is born because then the dog learns its place
in the pecking order naturally. I would suggest re-homing the dog might be
a better solution for all of you. To go from a house dog always living
inside to an unwanted source of hair and faeces can't be a happy experience
for the dog or for you.


Rehoming the dog is an ungoing consideration.

The dog loves the kids. She pooed on my one boy while he slept in bed
because she wasn't well and it's the only part of the bedroom she
wasn't allowed to be. Thus it saved her soiling her own doggy bed and
surrounding area. It was perfectly reasonable behaviour considering she
had to "go" really bad. I don't believe she did it out of malice.

Surely if dog shit is a problem in the house, your kids will come
across it in the garden too?
I honestly don't feel that you need this dog in your lives since she
is simply shut outside and ignored most of the time in case your
precious kids get dog hairs on them.

Evan wrote:

We should have always left her outside,
So what would be the point in getting her at all? You imply that it
was your wife who decided, because your oldest son wanted a
toy...er..dog. Could you not have said no and given the reasons why
not?


To her credit, she doesn't do anything bad to seek attention. The lawn
digging is strictly her trying to rouse the hedgehogs. I've seen it.
She encircles the things pawing at them. Of course she doesn't have
opposable thumbs, so she only manages to mess the grass up while trying
to "pick up" the hedgehogs.
and if she gets a spine in her mouth it will set up a massive
infection. If it breaks off, it will form an abcess, the pain of which
might make her snap at your children.

The dog loves the kids. She's always gentle with them. My two year old
loves hugging and petting the dog (and dumping spades of sand on her
back, and sitting on her when she's lying down, and pulling her tail,
etc...)
but what about the dog hair......
Shame on your for allowing your children to pull her tail. What next? A
finger in the eye, a pencil shoved down her ear? How will she react
then?

We do our best, but I know it's not good enough. Very unfair on the
dog.

So do the right thing by her. If you could let me know the area you are
in, I can point you towards some reputable rescue kennels in your area
as I have close linmks with many of them up and down the country after
being involved directly for decades.
..

"pammyT" wrote in message
ups.com...

snip


So do the right thing by her. If you could let me know the area you are
in, I can point you towards some reputable rescue kennels in your area
as I have close linmks with many of them up and down the country after
being involved directly for decades.
.


Additionally, if you are worried your dog might injure hedgehogs visiting
your garden, or if you find a sick or injured hedgehog (whether injured by
your dog or from any other cause) you may phone BHPS on 01584 890801 for
advice and/or the telephone number of a local carer.

BAC wrote:
your garden, or if you find a sick or injured hedgehog (whether injured by
your dog or from any other cause) you may phone BHPS on 01584 890801 for
advice and/or the telephone number of a local carer.


Thanks Bac,

My dog has killed only one hedgehog. She really is more curious than
protective of her back yard. I usually find in the morning she's
sleeping next to the critters like nothing's happened.

Of the remaining dozen or so hedgehogs that have survived the night
physically unharmed, I put them in a bucket and roll them back into the
bushes about 200 yards from home.

I will call that advice number if I discover a hedgehog with injuries.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
Any dog owning family comes across dog faeces in their own garden,
where it's easy to clean up. Dog diarrhoea in a child's bed while it, is
far more disgusting, much harder to clean up, and the prospect of
repetition (for whatever reason) would be seen as a problem by most
normal people.

He did not say, the dog is outside because the kids get dog hairs on
them; it's clear that was not the concern. Btw, it is normal for
parents to consider their children precious.


I didn't realise that trying to do right by both my dog and hedgehogs
would raise the ire of some many animal activists. You'd think I was a
dog beater. I didn't get a degree in Zoology because I hate the darn
things!

Janet understands exactly what I was trying to get across.