"It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's meant
without being pedantic."

No we don't all know what's meant - that is the whole point of this discussion.
It is a writer's responsibility to try to avoid misunderstandings on the part
of their readers. That is why we have a common language.

More generally, those who call other people "pedantic" are usually being
woolly. Unless you are very careful in your use of words, there is always a
danger of miscommunication, and of your readers not understanding you in the
way that you thought that you intended.

Pedantry is one of the great safeguards of freedom and democracy. Let's start a
"Save pedantry" campaign.

Laurie
Laurie (Laurence) Moseley

Plus Ultra

Expert Systems, Decision-Making, Argentinian Tango & Golf

On 13 Aug 2003 22:24:37 GMT, (Laurie Moseley) wrote:

"It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's meant
without being pedantic."

No we don't all know what's meant

Panto: Oh Yes we do!

--
Martin

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:25:46 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote:

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

No! Really?


To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use
the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in
nature"

Oh come on!

Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a
gardening group.

I am of the opinion that the horticultural word "organic" covers
such a wide assortment of tendencies, trends, practices, and fads
(to say nothing of sins, errors, and willful ignorance) that it
is meaningless. There's a touching idea about, that if it's
"organic" (or "natural" or even "herbal") that it's Truly
Wonderful and Utterly Harm-Free.

Now tell me, just what do ~you~ mean by "organic" when you use it
in reference to gardening, horticulture, farming, food
production, etc? Be specific. I'm curious, very curious.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

martin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the
chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

"martin" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:15:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"martin" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing
from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in
this
very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great
tendency
to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Indeed. I wish I could make my better half understand that.

There was a very good program on BBC about it.
According to them the Organic Food Industry have a large book full of
approved alternative natural chemicals. Copper was the alternative
thing to put on potatoes.

Where do they place slaked lime? It is not a natural chemical, but is
produced by calcining limestone and allowing the quicklime produced in this
manner to be hydrated. What is natural about this??

Franz

--
Martin

"sw" wrote in message
...
martin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this
very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great
tendency to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the
chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops.

Must I then take it that organic food == food grown with nice tasting
chemicals and ordinary food == food grown with nasty tasting chemicals?

Franz

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...


Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist

It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's
meant
without being pedantic.

Actually, you don't. Please, without looking at what I recently said about
lime, tell me whether it is organic or inorganic.



I have just rechecked the definition of the term "organic" in the
Penguin
Dictionary of Chemistry.
".........Organic chemistry is now the study of the compounds of carbon,
whether they be isolated from natural sources or synthesised in the
laboratory.........."

As a one-time organic chemist I know that.

You shouldn't make assumptions.

I made no assumptions anout your profession. I only commented on the vague
usage of the term "organic" in gardening circles.
I have gardened for close on seventy years, and I have felt no need to
classify anything as "organic" or otherwise in the gardening sense. I use
ony the categories "beneficient" and "harmful" in the current context.
This avoids me falling into the trap of ever calling copper sulphate and
lime "organic" and DDT "not organic".

Franz

Franz

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...



A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
problems.

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

No! Really?

Yes, really.

"Irony doesn't work on usenet" ;-)
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:39:59 +0100, (sw) wrote:

martin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the
chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops.

The customers who buy "organic" products in supermarkets have no way
of knowing.

Many of the "organic" alternatives are now on the EU banned list of
chemicals. Many of the alternative chemicals being used were far more
dangerous than the current stuff used by normal commercial growers,
according to the BBC. There's a lot of pseudo science about. I blame
rotten education.

My wife grows vegetables on an allotment organically. She and other
members use no chemicals. To me that's what organic is all about.
--
Martin

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:20:30 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"sw" wrote in message
...
martin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this
very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great
tendency to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Possibly. But some of us are capable of distinguishing between the
chemicals used on conventional crops and those used on Organic crops.

Must I then take it that organic food == food grown with nice tasting
chemicals and ordinary food == food grown with nasty tasting chemicals?

I think folksy old fashioned names for chemicals are better than real
chemical names. :-)
--
Martin

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:14:02 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

"Irony doesn't work on usenet" ;-)

Have you tried spraying it on your potatoes? :-)
--
Martin

This is the problem. It's the usual trap of trying to make "I understand it in
this way" mean "Everyone understands it in this way". That is one of the
reasons why communication is often so poor.

Could this be the basis for many divorces ?
(Insert Smiley)

Laurie
Laurie (Laurence) Moseley

Plus Ultra

Expert Systems, Decision-Making, Argentinian Tango & Golf

In message , martin
writes
My wife grows vegetables on an allotment organically. She and other
members use no chemicals. To me that's what organic is all about.

how do their crops grow without water?

--
dave @ stejonda

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:159427


"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...



A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
problems.

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

No! Really?

Yes, really.

"Irony doesn't work on usenet" ;-)

True.

Franz

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:159428


"Laurie Moseley" wrote in message
...
This is the problem. It's the usual trap of trying to make "I understand
it in
this way" mean "Everyone understands it in this way". That is one of the
reasons why communication is often so poor.

Could this be the basis for many divorces ?
(Insert Smiley)

How on earth are we supposed to know what you are talking about, when you
have stripped off all headers and every vestige of context?

Franz