"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Rooney" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 17:04:23 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Rooney" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:43:21 +0000, Oz
wrote:

Practical work would be a little tricky.

I wouldn't fancy undergoing surgery at the hands of someone whose
practical experience consisted of two weeks at summer school!


if I remember correctly, in the 19th century, if you failed your first
year
medical exam as a French medical student, you could get a ticket
"competent
to practice medicine in the colonies"

Jim Webster


Ha ha! But to be fair, the colonies were no doubt better off with
first year failures than with what they had beforehand.


Now, of course, the boot's on the other foot, and we are denuding our
former colonies of medical staff :-(


yes, this is criminal.
The question has to be asked, can we not train our own because there just
aren't the suitable people, or because government cannot get it within
budget? Either way it looks pretty bad

Jim Webster

Jim Webster writes

yes, this is criminal.
The question has to be asked, can we not train our own because there just
aren't the suitable people, or because government cannot get it within
budget? Either way it looks pretty bad

I'd be a little cautious.

An **awful** lot of "overseas" students were trained here in the UK.

--
Oz

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
....

Now, of course, the boot's on the other foot, and we are denuding our
former colonies of medical staff :-(


yes, this is criminal.
The question has to be asked, can we not train our own because there just
aren't the suitable people, or because government cannot get it within
budget? Either way it looks pretty bad


It's a global market! As all graduates soon discover, graduate employment
is national, not local, many job adds for new graduates don't even state
where you'll be working, if indeed you'll be working at one place.

It isn't surprising that the UK struggles to produce certain professionals
at a competitive price, or that some that we produce are worth more
elsewhere.

Michael Saunby

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


yes, this is criminal.
The question has to be asked, can we not train our own because there just
aren't the suitable people, or because government cannot get it within
budget? Either way it looks pretty bad



I think it is in the selection for training. Many Engineers I have met
over the years had considered medical training when they were in their teens
and had been advised out of the idea by careers teachers. The reason being
that it was difficult to get into medical school and they did not have the
right educational track record.
So in the UK selection is front end and many people who could have made
medical practioners are never able to prove theirselves.

Perhaps overseas there is more opportunity to enter training and proof of
capability is passing the training.

The front end selection was I believe something driven by the union of
doctors who did not want the market over supplied and cause enemployment in
existing doctors.

"Hamish" wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


yes, this is criminal.
The question has to be asked, can we not train our own because there
just
aren't the suitable people, or because government cannot get it within
budget? Either way it looks pretty bad



I think it is in the selection for training. Many Engineers I have met
over the years had considered medical training when they were in their
teens
and had been advised out of the idea by careers teachers. The reason being
that it was difficult to get into medical school and they did not have the
right educational track record.
So in the UK selection is front end and many people who could have made
medical practioners are never able to prove theirselves.

Perhaps overseas there is more opportunity to enter training and proof of
capability is passing the training.

The front end selection was I believe something driven by the union of
doctors who did not want the market over supplied and cause enemployment
in
existing doctors.

Unfortunately for them we are now in a bigger EU, and as far as I can make
out all those doctors can come here. I can see salaries lagging

Jim Webster

"Hamish" wrote in message
...


An engineering collegue of mine had mixed feelings when his daughter told
him that she has been offered a job in the city, her first after
graduating. Her starting salary is greater than his. They both have a
first from the same university.

That situation isn't new. In 1983 a 17 yo son joined the RAF as a
technician - nothing special - and was earning more than his dad, a teacher
at 44.

Spouse is now retired but the salary differential now would be huge - in
favour of son, now 38 and only a sergeant.

Mary

"Hamish" wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


yes, this is criminal.
The question has to be asked, can we not train our own because
there just
aren't the suitable people, or because government cannot get it
within
budget? Either way it looks pretty bad



I think it is in the selection for training. Many Engineers I have
met
over the years had considered medical training when they were in
their teens
and had been advised out of the idea by careers teachers. The reason
being
that it was difficult to get into medical school and they did not
have the
right educational track record.
So in the UK selection is front end and many people who could have
made
medical practioners are never able to prove theirselves.

Perhaps overseas there is more opportunity to enter training and
proof of
capability is passing the training.

The front end selection was I believe something driven by the
union of
doctors who did not want the market over supplied and cause
enemployment in
existing doctors.

I can confirm that a colleage who was Dean of the Medical Faculty at
my University gave me the same information.

Franz

"Michael Saunby" wrote in message
...

Bound to happen in some cases. I understand the average starting salary
for graduates (entering graduate employment - many don't make it) is
claimed to be £21k. Presumably in the city this can be doubled for the
right person. I get the impression that the present maximum (in most
cases) in public sector employment is roughly ( age x 1k ) so my guess is
he's about 40 working in the public sector, or other similarly unionised
employment. I'd also guess that his salary includes a pretty decent
pension, and hers won't. Also her salary still won't be enough to get a
mortgage to buy a property in the area where she works.

yes, it is amazing how well off you can be when housing is comparatively
cheap

Jim Webster

Jim Webster wrote:

Unfortunately for them we are now in a bigger EU, and as far as I can
make out all those doctors can come here. I can see salaries lagging

Is that such a bad thing, salaries lagging? It seems to me that doctoring,
or GP at least, is becoming a 9 - 5 job with any overtime paid. The local
health trust has to provide the out of hours cover. So, either NI
contributions will have to increase substantially or doctors salaries will
have to be significantly reduced if "free at the point of delivery for all"
is to be sustained. In time, I can see the status of doctors declining in
the same way that the status of teachers has declined.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Rooney" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 18:42:24 -0000, "BAC"
wrote:


Now, of course, the boot's on the other foot, and we are denuding our
former colonies of medical staff :-(


But America is a former colony.


Parts of it, anyway.

"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

Unfortunately for them we are now in a bigger EU, and as far as I can
make out all those doctors can come here. I can see salaries lagging

Is that such a bad thing, salaries lagging? It seems to me that
doctoring,
or GP at least, is becoming a 9 - 5 job with any overtime paid. The local
health trust has to provide the out of hours cover. So, either NI
contributions will have to increase substantially or doctors salaries will
have to be significantly reduced if "free at the point of delivery for
all"
is to be sustained. In time, I can see the status of doctors declining in
the same way that the status of teachers has declined.

I get the feeling that the politicians/NHS managers would rather like
doctors status to decline :-(

Jim Webster

Jim Webster wrote:
"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:

Unfortunately for them we are now in a bigger EU, and as far as I
can make out all those doctors can come here. I can see salaries
lagging

Is that such a bad thing, salaries lagging? It seems to me that
doctoring, or GP at least, is becoming a 9 - 5 job with any overtime
paid. The local health trust has to provide the out of hours cover.
So, either NI contributions will have to increase substantially or
doctors salaries will have to be significantly reduced if "free at
the point of delivery for all" is to be sustained. In time, I can
see the status of doctors declining in the same way that the status
of teachers has declined.

I get the feeling that the politicians/NHS managers would rather like
doctors status to decline :-(

I suspect you are right.

I am reminded of Hutber's law? Improvement means deterioration.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Michael Saunby" wrote in message
...
..

Bound to happen in some cases. I understand the average starting salary
for graduates (entering graduate employment - many don't make it) is
claimed to be £21k. Presumably in the city this can be doubled for the
right person. I get the impression that the present maximum (in most
cases) in public sector employment is roughly ( age x 1k ) so my guess is
he's about 40 working in the public sector, or other similarly unionised
employment. I'd also guess that his salary includes a pretty decent
pension, and hers won't. Also her salary still won't be enough to get a
mortgage to buy a property in the area where she works.



Less than 40k and he is 52. Engineering does not generally pay that well.
The salaries quoted in the annual IEE review always seem on the high side.

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


I get the feeling that the politicians/NHS managers would rather like
doctors status to decline :-(



As more people are educated to university level and more jobs come into
existance requiring a good education then the relatice decline of old skills
must decline.

Once a teacher, a doctor and a priest would be the only educated people
that the majority would meet..

Although I seem to get the impression from the Sherlock Holmes stories that
Dr Watson was not particularly well paid and enhanced his pay and status by
chronocling the SH stories. Conan Doyle was a doctor, so I assume this
reflected his own findings as to MD status.

Less than 40k and he is 52. Engineering does not generally pay that well.
The salaries quoted in the annual IEE review always seem on the high side.
Averages are often distorted by a few highly paid members who are probably
not doing any Engineering.

Alan