"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones, crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken in the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by drowning
'reasonably swift and humane', something which presumably could only be
answered definitively by the courts. Penalty on conviction is a level 5 fine
or up to 6 months in prison, per animal, so it's not something to be taken
lightly.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from bigboard contains these words:

Erm, it was a funny. Quite an amusing one, IMO.

Glad someone got it!

I expect quite a few did - but like me, balk at posting just 'LOL'


I knew you'd get it! I was really referring to Alan not seeming to realise I
was joking.

--
That every man who puts money into the hands of a "government" puts
into its hands as word which will be used against himself, to extort
more money from him, and also to keep him in subjection to its arbitrary
will.
-Lysander Spooner

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I have asked Alan to provide a reference for the 'drowning' advice he claims
to have had from the FC, but none has yet been forthcoming. I suspect any
such advice may turn out to have been superseded.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

And what is their view of killing rats and mice?

"BAC" wrote in message
...


"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

Not only, no, I do it to make sure the damage to the environment is
minimised.

What damage to the environment is that?

I'll give you a clue, 'Forestry Commision'!

The Forestry Commission is not the environment, it is a body which
enagages
in forestry. Not always in sympathy with the environment, either.

The forestry is concerned about the welfare of trees, and squirrels destroy
them.

"BAC" wrote in message
.. .

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in respect
of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of killing
of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I have asked Alan to provide a reference for the 'drowning' advice he
claims
to have had from the FC, but none has yet been forthcoming. I suspect any
such advice may turn out to have been superseded.

I am not going to put myself at risk in order to follow some idea put by
people who have never had to deal with these pests.

In fact, I invite you do come round and deal with the next one I catch!

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

What sensible/practical method do they now suggest is the way to despatch
them?

Alan

--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article , Alan Holmes
writes

"BAC" wrote in message
. ..

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in respect
of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of killing
of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I have asked Alan to provide a reference for the 'drowning' advice he
claims
to have had from the FC, but none has yet been forthcoming. I suspect any
such advice may turn out to have been superseded.

I am not going to put myself at risk in order to follow some idea put by
people who have never had to deal with these pests.

These would be the same people whose authority you were quoting in
support of your practice of drowning?

In fact, I invite you do come round and deal with the next one I catch!







--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...


"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

Not only, no, I do it to make sure the damage to the environment is
minimised.

What damage to the environment is that?

I'll give you a clue, 'Forestry Commision'!

The Forestry Commission is not the environment, it is a body which
enagages
in forestry. Not always in sympathy with the environment, either.

The forestry is concerned about the welfare of trees, and squirrels
destroy
them.


The forestry is concerned about the commercial value of the timber it grows,
and squirrels can reduce that, especially by 'stripping', which is why the
FC culls in certain circumstances. If you read the FC pest control advice,
you will see they advocate trapping and killing squirrels during the months
when trees are vulnerable to stripping, in areas where there are trees
susceptible to stripping damage, and in years when conditions seem to
suggest stripping damage as being most likely. They do not conduct a
mindless and pointless continual vendetta against the creatures, because,
(a) they concede it is impossible to eradicate them, and (b) the cost of
control is only justified when the presence of squirrels actually
constitutes a threat.

Conservationists will cull grey squirrels in areas where they are attempting
to stop the spread into red squirrel territory, but that's a different
issue.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
.. .

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure
I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them
and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect
of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing
of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I have asked Alan to provide a reference for the 'drowning' advice he
claims
to have had from the FC, but none has yet been forthcoming. I suspect
any
such advice may turn out to have been superseded.

I am not going to put myself at risk in order to follow some idea put by
people who have never had to deal with these pests.

That is the Forestry Commission you are talking about, the same organisation
you previously claimed to be advocating drowning as a means of disposal.

If you are unwilling to put yourself at risk to do the job humanely, perhaps
you should not be doing it at all?


In fact, I invite you do come round and deal with the next one I catch!


No, thanks, I have no wish to kill your grey squirrels. But I expect you
could find professional pest controllers in your area who would be willing
to do the job properly, for a price, and at no risk to yourself.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

What sensible/practical method do they now suggest is the way to despatch
them?

If you have read the pdf document linked to my response to Kay's message,
you will know the two methods recommended by the FC are either administation
of a lethal blow to the head with a blunt instrument, or transportation to a
vet for humane destruction. No mention of drowning, in fact they recommend
that no means of destruction other than those I've just mentioned should be
attempted.

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst excesses of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

I have asked Alan to provide a reference for the 'drowning' advice he claims
to have had from the FC, but none has yet been forthcoming. I suspect any
such advice may turn out to have been superseded.

I expect you're right. These regulations are changing all the time. Most
of them can be amended by (I think it's called) an Order In Council, and
doesn't need to be debated in the House: even then, it's unlikely to
make the headlines.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst excesses of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

Well, that's the Forestry Commission for you (emphatically not an AR
organisation), the same organisation which Alan cited as authority for
drowning the animals, which is of course the main reason I've referred to
them, since he's hoist on his own petard, so to speak.


I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission PDF files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety' mania at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on the value
of timber.

The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission PDF files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety' mania at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on the value
of timber.

I'm sure you're right about their reservations about shooting them,
however, I challenge anyone to produce a dangerous richochet from a wire
cage trap.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/