The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
BAC wrote:

Who is this 'us'? As far as I am aware, you are virtually alone in the
regular deliberate drowning of grey squirrels. Other people who trap grey
squirrels, presumably, manage to deal with them in a humane manner
in spite
of your suggestion it is impossible to do so.

What then is your opinion of using a Fenn trap, as opposed to a live
trap and drowning?

It depends how you set one - if it is set to close on the animal's head
or neck I'd prefer it to a live trap, but however careful you are in
setting/baiting it, you should foresee the unforeseen.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...


I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr
department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that
procedure
I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact
them
and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be
advocated
by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable
documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

What sensible/practical method do they now suggest is the way to
despatch
them?

If you have read the pdf document linked to my response to Kay's
message,
you will know the two methods recommended by the FC are either
administation
of a lethal blow to the head with a blunt instrument, or
transportation
to
a
vet for humane destruction. No mention of drowning, in fact they
recommend
that no means of destruction other than those I've just mentioned
should
be
attempted.

I cannot see how it is possible to get close enough to kill with a
blow
to
the head.

As you must know, if you have read the FC advice, you, kitted out with
your
gauntlets, are somehow supposed to get the squirrel out of the trap
into
a
hessian sack, and, once you have subdued it in the sack, are supposed
to
work out where the head is and whack it with the 'blunt instrument'. If
you
find the advice impractical or incredible, I suggest you take it up
with
the
FC.

I have no wish to cause myself considerable injury trying to get one of
these things out of the trap.

These things are lethal.


I don't blame them, they are merely trying to survive. Basically, your
attitude seems to be that you follow a method which is easy for you to do,
regardless of the suffering you inflict on your quarry.

Bearing in mind that I'm a simple ignorant peasant, could you use your
superiority to explain to me, in very simple terms, as I'm not able to
understand complicated things, how I can dispose of this vermin without
any extra cost to me, as I'm a very poor man.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated
by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable
documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the
trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to
a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes
shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and
filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst excesses
of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

Well, that's the Forestry Commission for you (emphatically not an AR
organisation), the same organisation which Alan cited as authority for
drowning the animals, which is of course the main reason I've referred
to
them, since he's hoist on his own petard, so to speak.


I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I
have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at
some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission PDF
files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't
recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety' mania
at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel
pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on the
value
of timber.

So can you give us a precise method of extracting this extreemly
dangerous
vermin from the trap in order to shoot it?


Who is this 'us'? As far as I am aware, you are virtually alone in the
regular deliberate drowning of grey squirrels. Other people who trap grey
squirrels, presumably, manage to deal with them in a humane manner in
spite
of your suggestion it is impossible to do so. I've already posted the
Forestry Commission Technical Advice Note which includes a description of
removing the squirrel for bashing over the head - not for shooting. FC do
not recommend shooting either in or out of the trap.

I'm afraid I don't recall you giving a detailed decription as to how to
remove the squirrel from the trap.

As I'm a very simple man and cannot understand complicated manuscripts
please
do not refer me to a source where the text is more than a few words long.

I'm sure at some time you have mentioned shooting squirrels in the trap.


I'd imagine other people would shoot the creature in the trap.

If you were genuinely concerned about the practicalities of a more humane
form of disposal, you could contact the RSPCA, your friends at the FC, the
bloke who sold you the traps (to see whether he now offers different
advice)
the advice line of your local council's pest control department, or DEFRA,
perhaps, for expert guidance.

When I'm next in Bridgewater I will go to the farm suppliers and ask them,
if I can remember to do that, the brain is very poor at the moment.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be
advocated
by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable
documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the
trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken
to
a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes
shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and
filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst
excesses
of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

Well, that's the Forestry Commission for you (emphatically not an AR
organisation), the same organisation which Alan cited as authority
for
drowning the animals, which is of course the main reason I've
referred
to
them, since he's hoist on his own petard, so to speak.


I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I
have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

If I had a gun this may be the method I'd use, but I don't have a gun.

I bet you didn't have a trap before you went out and bought one,
either.



Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at
some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission
PDF
files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't
recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a
possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety'
mania
at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel
pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on
the
value
of timber.

Squirrels cause a great deal of damage other than to trees, they steal
things I grow for my own consumption, they kill birds by destroying
the
eggs, they dig up plants, they break into peoples homes destroying
property, chewing through electricity cables putting human beings at
risk from electrocution and fire, both children and the elderly, as
well as all sorts of other problems.

But you wouldn't want to be bothered about things like that, would
you?

Don't be silly. I have taken issue with the method of destruction of
trapped
squirrels you have been advocating. I have not argued that nobody ever
has
any need to remove squirrels from their property. Not knowing the
circumstances in which you live, I have done you the courtesy of
assuming
you have a genuine need to control squirrels, and are not simply
killing
them as a result of some malign obsession.

I must admit it has become an obsession, that of trying to preserve the
food
I'm ying to grow for my consumption.

And, although you have carried out this control for fifteen to twenty
years,
you are still over-run by grey squirrels?

No, at first I was catching about 45 a year, it dropped after that, and the
present catch is about 5 a year.


I am not ignoring 'this destruction', although I do not personally
believe
it to be sufficient justification for a universal 'kill on sight'
policy -
IMO it should be up to individual landowners to decide whether or not
they
are prepared to tolerate the squirrels which visit their properties.
What
I
have been saying is I believe that where someone decides there is a
need
to
control squirrels or other mammals on his land, he should ensure that
they
are despatched in a humane manner, and I don't believe that drowning is
the
most humane alternative.

Then, as I have asked before, please give me a precise method of
despatching
the vermin without risk to myself and at to extra cost.

There is no way of killing the creatures without risk to yourself - at the
moment, for instance, you may be risking prosecution every time you do it.
DEFRA's advice on disposing of live trapped rats is that drowning is an
unacceptable inhumane method which brings the risk of prosecution, so I
don't see why it should be any different with squirrels. RSPCA would
certainly investigate if a complaint were to be made via their cruelty
hotline, although I have no idea whether they would actually prosecute..

So, I have to ask again, what is the required method of despatch of vermin
which does not require a monitary burden on my income.

If you were to master the art of getting the animal into a sack and
bashing
it over the head whilst it is in the sack, as described by the Forestry
Commission, it would only cost you the price of a sack and a cudgel and a
pair of suitable gauntlets. Buying a gun and learning how to use it would
cost more, of course. Arranging to visit and perhaps observe experts in
action would cost you some time, I suppose.

I suspect that taking each one to the vet for dispatching would not be
cheap,
and how would the vet carry out this proceedure.

No, it would not be cheap, but it would be humane. I suspect the vet's
practice would euthanise the creature, probably using a lethal injection
administered by a veterinary nurse.

I intend to ask my local vet whether they would carry out the dispatch of
vermin.

I still don't understand how killing a piece of vermin in 10 seconds could
be considered to be inhumane, it would not surprise me if it took a lot
longer than that to kill the things by bashing them over the head, if you
could identify the head whilst it was in a sack.

The first blows would most certainly hit any other parts of the body, it
would
require several blows, which would undoubtably take far longer that the 10
seconds required to kill the thing by drowning, the traumer caused to the
vermin would be greater than drowning.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One
of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive
that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.

The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Did they say exactly how one would be able to restrain it to administer a
blow
to the head?

No, that advice was given by your old friends at the Forestry Commission,
in
the PDF document I have posted the link to several times in this thread.


As to shooting it, it would still have to be made to be still, the traps
are
about 6 inches square and about two feet long, the squirrels can go from
end
to end at about three times a second, it would be very difficult to aim
the
gun at the squirrel to make a shot kill the thing, it is more likely that
it
would be wounded, so one would have to reload, and try again with the
distinct possiblity that it would be wounded again. This could well take
considerably longer that the ten seconds it takes to drown the thing, and
all this time it would be in great pain, how does that tie up with being
humane?


Up in the north west, where the conservation bodies are concerned about
the
spread of grey squirrels into red squirrel territory, they will supply
householders with live traps (so any red squirrels caught may be released)
and they advise householders not to try and shoot the grey squirrels in
the
cages themselves, but to contact the squirrel project people, who send
round
an expert to kill the squirrel, either by shooting or by lethal injection.
So I'd imagine it is possible for people with the necessary skill and
experience.

Interesting, how do I contact the squirrel project people and will they come
to dispatch squirrels caught by me?

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as
follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person
mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones,
crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one
of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken
in
the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

Drowning is not humane, in my opinion, FWIW, but maybe the courts would
take
a different view. RSPCA told me they would arrange for the matter to be
investigated, if a complaint were made on their cruelty hotline, and I
suppose that would be the first step.

But it is quick.

And am I falling for it?

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

Alan Holmes wrote:
And am I falling for it?

No, and no - I think. He's an issue with drowning squirrels, though,
which is illegal if done to cause unnecessary suffering.

Alan Holmes wrote:
[...]
I still don't understand how killing a piece of vermin in 10
seconds
could be considered to be inhumane, it would not surprise me if it
took a lot longer than that to kill the things by bashing them over
the head, if you could identify the head whilst it was in a sack.

The first blows would most certainly hit any other parts of the
body,
it would
require several blows, which would undoubtably take far longer that
the 10 seconds required to kill the thing by drowning, the traumer
caused to the vermin would be greater than drowning.

I must be mad to get into this mildly obscene thread. Leave aside for
the moment all the stuff about what actually constitutes suffering
for non-human species, and 10 seconds is still quite a long time. As
a kid, wing-forward not three-quarter, I'm sure I did 100 yards in
under 12. Even if you don't hit the head at the first swing,
something's amiss if you can't whack some unfortunate squirrel in a
bag awfully frequently in that length of time. I've no idea if it
holds any general validity, but when David Livingstone was attacked
by a lion, he said it didn't hurt at the time; and, much more
trivially, I know that any aches and pains caused by rugby didn't
start till after the game. So I reckon any reasonably quick death by
shovel or boot in air is going to be quicker and kinder than drowning
in cold water for a squirrel or a rat. The most distressing part, it
seems to me, is likely to be being in the sack at all.

But I'm for shooting if you really must; otherwise, and that's 9999
times out of ten thousand, leave 'em alone and take sensible
gardening precautions if it begins to look like a problem.

--
Mike.

The message
from Janet Baraclough contains these words:
The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:



As I'm a very simple man and cannot understand complicated manuscripts
please
do not refer me to a source where the text is more than a few words long.


If only!

If you would take the trouble to edit your replies to a
comprehensible size, you would probably find it a whole lot easier to
follow conversations here and grasp the simple facts which people have
patiently repeated for you.

I've just deleted all his posts unread, as the replies weren't visible
under all the overquoted text.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

snip


I have no wish to cause myself considerable injury trying to get one of
these things out of the trap.

These things are lethal.


I don't blame them, they are merely trying to survive. Basically, your
attitude seems to be that you follow a method which is easy for you to
do,
regardless of the suffering you inflict on your quarry.

Bearing in mind that I'm a simple ignorant peasant, could you use your
superiority to explain to me, in very simple terms, as I'm not able to
understand complicated things, how I can dispose of this vermin without
any extra cost to me, as I'm a very poor man.


I have already posted the relevant technical advice notes, and suggested
that if you are genuinely interested in current best practice, which I
doubt, you might seek practical advice and guidance from people who try to
dispose of the pests in a humane manner.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

snip


Who is this 'us'? As far as I am aware, you are virtually alone in the
regular deliberate drowning of grey squirrels. Other people who trap
grey
squirrels, presumably, manage to deal with them in a humane manner in
spite
of your suggestion it is impossible to do so. I've already posted the
Forestry Commission Technical Advice Note which includes a description
of
removing the squirrel for bashing over the head - not for shooting. FC
do
not recommend shooting either in or out of the trap.

I'm afraid I don't recall you giving a detailed decription as to how to
remove the squirrel from the trap.

As I'm a very simple man and cannot understand complicated manuscripts
please
do not refer me to a source where the text is more than a few words long.

I'm sure at some time you have mentioned shooting squirrels in the trap.


I'd imagine other people would shoot the creature in the trap.

If you were genuinely concerned about the practicalities of a more
humane
form of disposal, you could contact the RSPCA, your friends at the FC,
the
bloke who sold you the traps (to see whether he now offers different
advice)
the advice line of your local council's pest control department, or
DEFRA,
perhaps, for expert guidance.

When I'm next in Bridgewater I will go to the farm suppliers and ask them,
if I can remember to do that, the brain is very poor at the moment.


Evidently.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...
snip

I still don't understand how killing a piece of vermin in 10 seconds could
be considered to be inhumane, it would not surprise me if it took a lot
longer than that to kill the things by bashing them over the head, if you
could identify the head whilst it was in a sack.

The first blows would most certainly hit any other parts of the body, it
would
require several blows, which would undoubtably take far longer that the 10
seconds required to kill the thing by drowning, the traumer caused to the
vermin would be greater than drowning.


If drowning of mammals is considered a humane form of destruction by the
powers that be, isn't it a little surprising that it doesn't seem to be a
recommended method, and that DEFRA, for example, warns in its rat technical
advice note that drowning is inhumane and a person doing it is risking
prosecution for cruelty?

However, you may be right, and drowning of squirrels may not be contrary to
current law. Next time you deliberately drown a squirrel, why not report
yourself to the RSPCA or the local police and find out?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

snip


Up in the north west, where the conservation bodies are concerned about
the
spread of grey squirrels into red squirrel territory, they will supply
householders with live traps (so any red squirrels caught may be
released)
and they advise householders not to try and shoot the grey squirrels in
the
cages themselves, but to contact the squirrel project people, who send
round
an expert to kill the squirrel, either by shooting or by lethal
injection.
So I'd imagine it is possible for people with the necessary skill and
experience.

Interesting, how do I contact the squirrel project people and will they
come
to dispatch squirrels caught by me?


If you telephone your local Wildlife Trust, they will probably be able to
let you know whether any such project and/or assistance is available in your
area, and, if so, who to contact. Similarly, the pest control section of
your local council might also be able to advise you.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
snip

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

Drowning is not humane, in my opinion, FWIW, but maybe the courts would
take
a different view. RSPCA told me they would arrange for the matter to be
investigated, if a complaint were made on their cruelty hotline, and I
suppose that would be the first step.

But it is quick.


But the law doesn't say a method should be 'quick and easy', it says it
should be 'swift and humane'.

I first participated in this thread, IIRC, when someone asked whether
drowning trapped squirrels was 'legal' in this country. For the reasons I
have explained several times, I personally doubt whether it would be
regarded as a lawful means of dispatch. However, that decision would be up
to the prosecutors and ultimately the courts, not me, what's needed is a
test case.