Some of you may remember that I did a series of displays at a large
meeting of my denomination this past June. One of the trees I displayed
is a cascade yew. I had just put it in a nice square pot that set me
back $60, which is a lot for me. Someone carelessly bumped into it and
knocked it over on the last day, not bothering to even seek me out and
offer to pay for the pot. I don't know who knocked it over. Anyway, I
recovered all the pieces. The way the pot fell, one side was punched
out but the rest of the pot was left intact. I have repaired a number
of pots fairly successfully and did so with this one, but when you look
at the damaged side you can clearly see where the side was taken out.
From the front you'd never know there was any damage. So, I'm wondering
if it's kosher to use such a pot when displaying the tree in an
exhibition, or elsewhere. Your thoughts?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Craig: Are you in a trouble making mood? ;-) This could be the start of another
rules vs. guidelines vs. down with all criteria for judgment of any kind!
It depends upon the nature of the exhibit. A repaired pot will always be
less desirable than a whole pot. A repaired pot will not be acceptable in a formal
exhibit. Most exhibits are not so formal, however, so you could use it at your
discretion. If you have a better container, use it. Or if you don't really need
that bonsai in the exhibit, it's probably best to exclude it.
No need for the lamentations of Jeremiah over this one, though. Half the
fun of an exhibit is looking for the flaws and deciding how you might have done it
better. That's the balance for the appreciation of the effort, skill, and creativity
which you admire.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Craig Cowing wrote:
Some of you may remember that I did a series of displays at a large
meeting of my denomination this past June. One of the trees I displayed
is a cascade yew. I had just put it in a nice square pot that set me
back $60, which is a lot for me. Someone carelessly bumped into it and
knocked it over on the last day, not bothering to even seek me out and
offer to pay for the pot. I don't know who knocked it over.
Anyway, I recovered all the pieces. The way the pot fell, one side was
punched out but the rest of the pot was left intact. I have repaired a number of
pots fairly successfully and did so with this one, but when you look at the damaged
side you can clearly see where the side was taken out.
From the front you'd never know there was any damage. So, I'm wondering if
it's kosher to use such a pot when displaying the tree in an
exhibition, or elsewhere. Your thoughts?
Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over. I had the same
happen when a cascade blew over. I repaired the pot so that no-one else
knew it was broken. To me it was always the broken pot, so when the
opportunity arose to replace it with an almost identical one from the
same potter (David Jones of Walsall Ceramics Studios)
I did. The repaired one is now a stand-by and I feel better. To me this
is more important than when displaying.

I would say that unless the damage is visible, no competition judge is
ever likely to discover it. How many judges get time to study the rear
of a tree? If the display is "in the round" with the tree viewable from
all sides, this would be a different matter. IMHO of course ;-)

Cheers

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


So, I'm wondering
if it's kosher to use such a pot when displaying the tree in an
exhibition, or elsewhere. Your thoughts?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37



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Better using a cracked pot than being a crackpot.
With a few loonitoon IBCers the exception... ;-)

Best wishes,
Chris

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So, I'm wondering
if it's kosher to use such a pot when displaying the tree in an
exhibition, or elsewhere. Your thoughts?

"Elsewhere" probably is fine. I wouldn't use it for an exhibit.
While bonsai do have a "front" (or at least most do) it is
acceptable to look at the back of a tree, so everything should be
as impeccable there as in the front.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

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Alan Walker wrote:

Craig: Are you in a trouble making mood? ;-) This could be the start of another
rules vs. guidelines vs. down with all criteria for judgment of any kind!

Why not? This topic hasn't come up much on the list, and I'm curious as to what others
think and do on this topic.

It depends upon the nature of the exhibit. A repaired pot will always be
less desirable than a whole pot. A repaired pot will not be acceptable in a formal
exhibit. Most exhibits are not so formal, however, so you could use it at your
discretion. If you have a better container, use it. Or if you don't really need
that bonsai in the exhibit, it's probably best to exclude it.
snip
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com


Well, I'm not going to be entering it in a formal competition anytime soon, so it's ok
as it is. I think it would be fine in the kind of displays I do, too. Looking at the
front there is no sign of damage.

So, another question along this same line (I'll wake up the list yet!)--do pots reach
the point where repairs or damage make them more desirable, in terms of
wabi/sabi--patina, that sort of thing?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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Alan Walker wrote:
Craig: Are you in a trouble making mood? ;-) This could be the start of another rules vs.
guidelines vs. down with all criteria for judgment of any kind!
====
Craig Cowing wrote:
Why not? This topic hasn't come up much on the list, and I'm curious as to what others
think and do on this topic.
====
I was just kidding, Craig. Maybe the great mica pot wars were before your
time. ;-)))
====
It depends upon the nature of the exhibit. A repaired pot will always be less
desirable than a whole pot. A repaired pot will not be acceptable in a formal exhibit.
Most exhibits are not so formal, however, so you could use it at your discretion. If you
have a better container, use it. Or if you don't really need that bonsai in the exhibit,
it's probably best to exclude it.
SNIP
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================
Well, I'm not going to be entering it in a formal competition anytime soon, so it's
ok as it is. I think it would be fine in the kind of displays I do, too. Looking at the
front there is no sign of damage.
So, another question along this same line (I'll wake up the list yet!)--do pots
reach the point where repairs or damage make them more desirable, in terms of
wabi/sabi--patina, that sort of thing?
Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37
===============================
Not in our lifetimes, Craig.
Alan

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As it has been said, I depends on the type of show.
If you enter into a formal show, everything should be
as perfect as you can make it. If the show is more
casual, then whatever criteria the group has is fine.
I think the only problem would be if you expect
acceptance of your standqrd when participaint in a
show with different standards.

I show in a mica pot. It is a large elm. After I oil
the pot, it is hard to tell it from ceramic. I
couldn't deal with it in a ceramic pot. I use ground
walnuts in a sock as a polishing device. Stick it in
the freezer between shows. Gives a nice finish,
removes most deposits.

Kitsune Miko

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Alan Walker wrote:

Alan Walker wrote:
Craig: Are you in a trouble making mood? ;-) This could be the start of another rules vs.
guidelines vs. down with all criteria for judgment of any kind!
====
Craig Cowing wrote:
Why not? This topic hasn't come up much on the list, and I'm curious as to what others
think and do on this topic.
====
I was just kidding, Craig. Maybe the great mica pot wars were before your
time. ;-)))
====


Oh, I know you were kidding. I guess I should have included a emoticon to indicate that.
But, I'm always in a trouble-making mood! ;0]

I remember the great mica pot wars. I'm a veteran of that conflagration. I was on the mica
pot side. I bear the scars to prove it.

SNIP
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
================================


OASE, I'm off to Maine in a week to go stone hunting on the Sandy and Carrabassett Rivers.
Whatever happened to the stone list? Did it die a natural death?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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kevin bailey wrote:

What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't grieve over. I had the same
happen when a cascade blew over. I repaired the pot so that no-one else
knew it was broken. To me it was always the broken pot, so when the
opportunity arose to replace it with an almost identical one from the
same potter (David Jones of Walsall Ceramics Studios)
I did. The repaired one is now a stand-by and I feel better. To me this
is more important than when displaying.


If I ever show this tree I'll probably replace the pot. It's ok for now.
The foliage needs another year or two of work first.

I put 1/2" marble chips in the bottom part of the pot for ballast. It
seems to help.


snip

Kev Bailey
Vale Of Clwyd, North Wales


Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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In a message dated 9/26/2003 1:42:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

So, another question along this same line (I'll wake up the list yet!)--do
pots reach
the point where repairs or damage make them more desirable, in terms of
wabi/sabi--patina, that sort of thing?

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37


No. ;-)

Most potters destroy flawed aesthetic and/or flawed technical pots. Breakage
by someone other than the potter in an accidental way is far removed by the
maker's intent.

Collectible ceramics is always seriously affected in its perceived value if
it has been damaged, even if skillfully repaired. Only the rarest pieces retain
value.

Luis Fontanills
Miami, Florida USA


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----- Original Message -----
From: "Luis Fontanills"

In a message dated 9/26/2003 1:42:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:

So, another question along this same line (I'll wake up the list
yet!)--do
pots reach
the point where repairs or damage make them more desirable, in terms of
wabi/sabi--patina, that sort of thing?

No. ;-)

Most potters destroy flawed aesthetic and/or flawed technical pots.
Breakage
by someone other than the potter in an accidental way is far removed by
the
maker's intent.

Collectible ceramics is always seriously affected in its perceived value
if
it has been damaged, even if skillfully repaired. Only the rarest pieces
retain
value.

Luis:

Basically, I agree with you, but.....

Chase Rosade tells me that, in Japan, really old and valuable pots with
minor dings are repaired with gold inlays (Maybe you could take it to a
dentist friend), and used in exhibits.

These are usually pots that are in the category "If it didn't have any
damage, you couldn't afford it".

Regards,

Bart

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At the Pacific Northwest Bonsai Convention, Michael Hagedorn gave a very
nice presentation on pots and matching them to trees. He included quite a
few pictures from a visit to Japan and commented that pots that have a great
feeling of age are far more valuable than those that are perfect. The most
common signs of age are water and some lime stains around the base, but I
imagine that the small nicks and dings that come from long use would also
qualify. He said that it appears that only in the United States is it
desirable to display a tree that is designed to look very old in a pot that
looks like it just came out of the kiln (or has been oiled/polished to look
even newer). In fact pots are often stored under the benches for several
years to get them going on the feeling of age before they are used.

As a former and hopefully future potter I can see both points. The
craftsman potter likes to turn out pots that are just as they designed them
(perfect including the impact of variable firing factors) but that also have
patina and a feeling of permanence - wabi/sabi. I am not sure exactly where
the line is between a pot that shows the ages and one that is abused, but a
broken that has been pot repaired is definitely not on the desirable side of
the line in my book. That being said I plan to build a new interior from
fiberglass for a large pot that arrived from Japan with the bottom shattered
and the rim broken in two places. The tree will be shown locally and only a
couple of people will know, but "I" will need a new pot for anything beyond
Spokane.

Most undesirable (imperfect?) work is normally destroyed - I remember
smashing more than a garbage can worth of my mother's work in her final days
- it was good enough to have around as examples (she was a teacher), but she
did not want it around after her death (my brother and I slipped a few pots
away that we wanted to remember her by that had been placed in the destroy
pile).

Marty

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Nice post, Marty.

I think Mike Hagedorn expressed the Japanese display of bonsai pots well in
spirit though I'm not confident of the detail, as related. Mike cares about
these things, studies them and would take care to report accurately, so he
could be absolutely correct.

Attention is perhaps paid to aging more in suiban aesthetics than bonsai pot
aesthetics, though I would speculate that the balance is equal. The proper
practice for suiban according to Mr. Matsuura in Nippon Suiseki Association
is to display an aged stone in an aged pot and a new stone (which is not
properly yet a suiseki) in a brighter pot that looks more youthful.
Matsuura thinks aging important for every pot. He also ages new calligraphy
scrolls that he has obtained, but not to the point of scruffiness as Kenko's
_Essays in Idleness_ suggests as fitting. Matsuura advises the Imperial
family on display, & Nippon Suiseki Association is the only official
representive of suiseki art recognized by the Japanese Ministry of Cultural
Affairs which promotes traditional arts. His practices appear consistent
with major presenters and publishers of bonsai display. I wonder what
sources Mike Hagedorn illustrated for display-- were they of alcove
displays,
exhibition displays, garden growing areas or other choices?

A patina replicating age on a new pot is insufficient for exhibiting
according to Matsuura. I don't think debris or abuse is acceptable.
Intentionally allowing or encouraging a water or chemical stain (as opposed
to a mellowing weathered patina) as well as chipping feels wrong. It would
indicate the present or previous owner showing lack of respect for his
material.

In Southern Chinese or Korean folkcraft intended for everyday use such as
for feeding ducks and later adapted as containers for bonsai, perhaps the
standard for "original" condition is widened. Would abusive (breaking,
chipping) or even insensitive (discoloration exceeding unobtrusive patina)
be tolerated as anything but a sign of abuse or vulgarity once a pot is
obtained? A stone that is not aged in its entirety distracts because of
patinated and protected areas drawing attention; therefore stones are
carefully turned to weather all of their displayed surfaces while aging--
even the protected areas of shelter stones are turned to age. A pot with a
stain or chips is similarly distracting.

I'd like to see more published by people who are responsible for display.
I'm not familiar with displays by enthusiasts capable of using mellowly aged
material choosing to use abusively or even heavily-aged (worn to disrepair)
material in pots or scrolls, today.

I use scrolls for bonsai/suiseki display that are sometimes overly worn
because I can find better material by overlooking the flaws... but their
price tells me a larger pool of purchasers will not consider them. The
museum & fine arts art community are more accepting of an overly-worn or
well-refurbished scroll painting or calligraphy surface than the alcove
display community in Japan, I think.

Best wishes,
Chris... C. Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA

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Gosh... Luis, Marty, Lynn & I have gotten together to create a consistent
answer, Craig. Now, go forth and act without hesitation!

Perhaps this is your koan.

Meanwhile... Andy, listening to no one, practices "breaking/not breaking" in
the background.

:-)))

Best wishes,
Chris

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