In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

The plants are not a good rich green color once planted out in the gardens.
The get paler as summer passes. The soil is alkaline from natural limestone
locking up any iron in the soil. By late summer they're almost chlorotic.
That doesn't happen with Ironite. Also, our Hollies and Azaleas would die
from chlorosis before we started using sulfur and Ironite. I did buy some
stuff for Hollies and Azaleas this year. I didn't use the Ironite on them.
But who knows what poisons are in any of these products? There's no way to
know. How can I even know what's in the 10-10-10 I buy?

Sometimes you just can¹t grow an acid loving plant in a alkaline area.
Sure you can try to over ride this limitation but it requires energy aka
money. AND the odds are not in your favor.

http://www.demesne.info/Garden-Help/Solutions/Soil/Alkaline-Soils.htm

http://www.gardeninghelpuk.com/plants_for_acid_soil.htm

What state do you reside in?

I have to deal with Acid here in NJ.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...
"Marie Dodge" wrote

"Pat Kiewicz" wrote

Marie Dodge said:

They don't sell liquid seaweed where I live. I don't care to start
ordering things online because the shipping is often as much
as the items to be shipped.

Try nematodes for that relationship, then try finding live ones locally

For what relationship? ???


Yes, but some things are cheap at twice the price, and sometimes
shipping
is nowhere near equal to the cost of the item shipped (even these days).

Consider Maxicrop seaweed *powder* where you avoid paying to ship
water:

http://www.arbico-organics.com/1313001.html

Get it shipped by priority mail. It's cheaper.

The product is $14.75 and shipping is $11.50 = $27.25!

(I would have recommended The Eclectic Gardener, as a satisfied
customer, but they are sold out of Maxicrop powder. )
http://www.eclectic-gardener.com/maxicroppowder.html

If I ever play and win the Lottery maybe I can afford some of this high
priced organic stuff.

oh poor me
I guess you'll just have to kick back and retire from gardening.

Why should I do that simply because I can't afford the things YOU can? Clue
#1 - Not everyone has your income. :-)


I'm in Lowe's and Home Depot regularly and yet haven't seen any of these
organic fertilizers. Perhaps there isn't enough call for them here. Or
they're so expensive people wont pay the price. Twice I bought the
liquid Iron and twice it turned into a tinny smelling liquid once opened,
with white stuff like scale in it at the bottom. That was when I
switched to Ironite.

You're wanting to buy the wrong stuff at the wrong places and then
disappointed that you can't, or you get overcharged

I can only shop at the stores that are here. There's a nursery that carries
bone and blood meal and I think they still have Fish Emulsion. It would be
several hundred dollars to purchase enough for our gardens. People are not
buying these high priced items. They're going for the bags of General
Fertilizer and Ironite.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to.
= O

Yesterday I bought a bag of Medina granular fertilzer, certified
organic, for 20 dollars and it covers up to 4,000 square feet.

How nice! Nothing like that here. Clue #2 = not everyone has stores in
their area that sell organic fertilizers.


I haven't seen anything here but fish emulsion and can't afford almost $10
for a little bottle of the stuff. It wouldn't be enough for one tomato
plant
for the season. I really overspent on insecticides, both organic and
chemical this year due to the WF and spidermites.

You use one tablespoon per gallon of water. That bottle will last a
few years!

You're kidding right? One gallon is enough FE for 3 container Tomatoes for
one watering!



That is a trip with the high cost of gas no less.

Oh, then forget it. Are you on welfare?

Are you retired and living on SS?



I have more time and less money. :-)

So use the Ironite.

I am. ;-) I wanted to know your issues with the product. Has anyone died
from using it in their gardens? Any children suffer from lead inhalation? Is
it being found in veggies grown in soil containing Ironite? I ask a question
and I get a load of people suggesting I purchase all kinds of expensive
products only those with good incomes can afford. I took people's advice on
another Forum to use Organics when the insect infestation started and wasted
over $30 on Neem Oil and Pyrethrum. Neither product made a difference. All
they did was give the insects an unbeatable head start (as I waited for
results) and destroy the garden. By the time I turned to chemicals it was
too late. The plants were totally overrun with spider mites and whitefly.

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

Organic fertilizers do not keep insect infestations from occurring.

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:19:42 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
.. .
"Marie Dodge" wrote
"polecanoe" wrote

i think it is illegal to sell this toxic waste in most states. get
greensand.

They don't sell greensand here that I know of, and I have 3 large
veggie
gardens. What well known stores carry it?

http://www.fertrell.com/soil_amendments.html
http://www.fertrell.com/outlets.html

Thanks. It's odd they have no prices listed for their products. People
have
to call for prices.

That's because prices change. Gas has gone up 75% in the last 8
years.


Oh, I wonder how other sites keep their prices listed then. This is the
first site I've been to in years that doesn't list prices. How am I to know
how many lbs of feathers or other amendments to buy? What rule are you
going by? Lets say for 1000 sq ft garden.

"Steve Young" bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet wrote in message
...

Actually, I gave you the first link so you could see the amendments used
for
organic farming, perhaps learn some of the tricks / solutions we have at
our
disposal.

I gave you the second link so you could use it as fodder for searching out
a
dealer near you. It is a list you could poke and learn. But, alas, all
you
want to do is whine about money.

Alas, I don't have your income and you seem frustrated that not everyone can
afford organic gardening. Why does it bother you so that not everyone has
that kind of money? There was no info there as to how much the products are
or how much is needed for the average garden. So tell me since you're
familiar with the prices... how much would I need for 1000 sw ft garden and
about how much would it cost?


There's a reason why po folks is po folks

Yep, unexpected emergencies. Family issues. Job loss. Two serious
accidents in the recent past. High cost of living. We're not all as
fortunate as someone like you.


Steve Young

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...

The number one cause of childrens overdose ending in in death is
'merica.

No child here has died from eating Ironite. They get the lead from old
paint
and some toys from overseas.

Main cause is Iron from vitamins. So keep those vitamins that look
like Fred Flintstone and Iron pills in a secure place.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec21/ch326/ch326i.html

Since when is LEAD poisoning and IRON poisoning the same thing? Where's the
connection? You're confusing the two elements.


Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:24:42 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


"Jangchub" wrote in message
. ..

The number one cause of childrens overdose ending in in death is
'merica.

No child here has died from eating Ironite. They get the lead from old
paint
and some toys from overseas.

I didn't say Ironite. I said iron. Children overdose on chewable
vitamins and the reason is liver failure from an overdose of iron. You
failed to quote me correctly.

But the subject is/was Ironite and the lead it contains. Who the hell would
feed their child Ironite?

Marie Dodge wrote:

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

Organic fertilizers do not keep insect infestations from occurring.



The theory is that lack of organic nutrients stresses the plants, and
insect pests are attracted to stressed-out plants. The latter part
seems to be true. The first part is a little iffy but it's not totally
false either.

Bob

In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Alas, I don't have your income and you seem frustrated that not everyone can
afford organic gardening.

Is you joshin'? It's too expensive to not have to buy lots of harmful
chemicals for the garden? Or do you mean you can't afford to waist money
on the rarely needed natural products (which tend to cost the same or less
than any other product for the same use) when you have to save funds for
lots of costly chemical swill?

On organically balanced garden with diverse plant species needs no
artificial soil ammendments and is less inclined to pest or disease
problems, incurring few costs. A garden that is out of balance (probably
from chemical use) will be more rather than less susceptible to return of
diseases and pests (for many reasons, such as the fact that harmful
insects bounce back more quickly than the beneficial insects pesticides
also eradicate), inducing the "need" for further purchases of costly
harmful chemicals.

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com

In article ,
(paghat) wrote:

In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:

Alas, I don't have your income and you seem frustrated that not everyone
can
afford organic gardening.

Is you joshin'? It's too expensive to not have to buy lots of harmful
chemicals for the garden? Or do you mean you can't afford to waist money
on the rarely needed natural products (which tend to cost the same or less
than any other product for the same use) when you have to save funds for
lots of costly chemical swill?

On organically balanced garden with diverse plant species needs no
artificial soil ammendments and is less inclined to pest or disease
problems, incurring few costs. A garden that is out of balance (probably
from chemical use) will be more rather than less susceptible to return of
diseases and pests (for many reasons, such as the fact that harmful
insects bounce back more quickly than the beneficial insects pesticides
also eradicate), inducing the "need" for further purchases of costly
harmful chemicals.

In short, organic gardening is gardening on the cheap! Non-organic methods
feed into themselves -- expense builds on expense.

-paghat the ratgirl

I killed filed Marie enough is enough.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Marie Dodge" wrote:

The plants are not a good rich green color once planted out in the
gardens.
The get paler as summer passes. The soil is alkaline from natural
limestone
locking up any iron in the soil. By late summer they're almost chlorotic.
That doesn't happen with Ironite. Also, our Hollies and Azaleas would die
from chlorosis before we started using sulfur and Ironite. I did buy some
stuff for Hollies and Azaleas this year. I didn't use the Ironite on
them.
But who knows what poisons are in any of these products? There's no way
to
know. How can I even know what's in the 10-10-10 I buy?

Sometimes you just can¹t grow an acid loving plant in a alkaline area.
Sure you can try to over ride this limitation but it requires energy aka
money. AND the odds are not in your favor.

http://www.demesne.info/Garden-Help/Solutions/Soil/Alkaline-Soils.htm

http://www.gardeninghelpuk.com/plants_for_acid_soil.htm

What state do you reside in?

I have to deal with Acid here in NJ.

I'm on limestone rock in TN. As the Azaleas died I haven't replaced them.
The Hollies are doing great in their mix of compost, sand, clay soil and
Ironite. Now that we have the Internet I look up plants before I buy them.
They shouldn't be selling plants here that need acid soil.


Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

"Jangchub" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 14:42:03 -0500, "Marie Dodge"
wrote:


The plants are not a good rich green color once planted out in the
gardens.
The get paler as summer passes. The soil is alkaline from natural
limestone
locking up any iron in the soil. By late summer they're almost chlorotic.
That doesn't happen with Ironite. Also, our Hollies and Azaleas would die
from chlorosis before we started using sulfur and Ironite. I did buy some
stuff for Hollies and Azaleas this year. I didn't use the Ironite on them.
But who knows what poisons are in any of these products? There's no way to
know. How can I even know what's in the 10-10-10 I buy?

Oh, this explains it. You are trying to grow plants which absoltely
detest those conditions. If you use 1/4 cup of black strap molassas
with 1/2 cup of epsom salts to a gallon of water you will be providing
the iron you need. The magnesium helps unlock to soils iron. There
is plenty there.

Magnesium (Epsom Salts) is added at planting time for the veggies and
flowers. No more shrubs will be planted as they need too much water in this
climate.

Ironite, if used, should only be used once every
three to five years or you risk overdoing it. Ironite kills soil
biota which is far more important than using Ironite to green things
up.

I found no sites showing Ironite kills soil biota, frogs, turtles, birds,
earthworms, grubs or anything else that may wander into a garden.

If you use a quality fertilizer like Medina you will be in a much
better position. However, you've come up with many excuses or reasons
to continue using Ironite so maybe this discussion should end. It's a
waste of time.

Unless you can prove that to me, and then loan me several hundred dollars to
buy it - why push it on me? So far I've tried several organic things that
someone on these groups and forums told me worked and it was bullcrap. Then
when these expensive useless products don't work, you pro-organic fanatics
get ****ed off and insist they worked for their mother's neighbor's son's
father-in-law's cousin.........

Why didn't you just answer the questions I asked in stead of trying to push
your favorite soil amendments off on me? I already have several loads of
free organic matter to go into the garden this fall. How many people have
been sickened or killed by Ironite? Where are the statistics children are
somehow ingesting lead from Ironite treated soil? Where are the studies?
Very little Ironite is needed. You seem to think 50lb sacks are dumped in
the gardens. One coffee can full does one whole garden for the season.


That depends on which scavenger you're talking about. Even humans can fit
into that category. Insects and bugs are the worst garden pests here, not
animals.

Humans are not scavengers. Scavengers eat anything, including carion.

OK, we don't have wolves here but do have Buzzards. The buzzies don't bother
gardens. Humans in their natural state will eat almost anything other than
carrion.

Humans are omnivores and we're on the top of the food chain.

And this has WHAT to do with the issues concerning the use of Ironite?

"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...

Marie Dodge wrote:

"jellybean stonerfish" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:47:44 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

I understand. There doesn't seem to be much sympathy for people on a
budget or people who don't have easy access to organic products; but I
understand where you're coming from.

It's truly shocking what the cost of organic farming/gardening has come
to. = O

No as expensive as putting unsafe chemicals on your crops.

Organic fertilizers do not keep insect infestations from occurring.



The theory is that lack of organic nutrients stresses the plants, and
insect pests are attracted to stressed-out plants.

That's all it is - a theory. I've been gardening since 1958 and have seen
insects attracted to the healthiest plants you can imagine. Pests are
opportunists. If they're in the area they will attack plants be they healthy
or unhealthy.

The latter part
seems to be true. The first part is a little iffy but it's not totally
false either.

And it's not totally true either. My gardens are loaded with organic
matter, yet this year the insects in one garden are totally uncontrollable.
I should have used a good chemical spray as soon as I saw the first insects
and spiders in stead of wasting several weeks with organic oils and powders
that did nothing. All they did was give the pests a good head start, to the
point the garden was a total loss by the time the ag agent recommended a
good chemical spray. More organic matter will be added this fall and for no
other reason than to help our heavy clay soil support veggies.


Bob

In article , "Marie Dodge"
wrote:.

And it's not totally true either. My gardens are loaded with organic
matter, yet this year the insects in one garden are totally uncontrollable.
I should have used a good chemical spray as soon as I saw the first insects
and spiders in stead of wasting several weeks with organic oils and powders
that did nothing. All they did was give the pests a good head start, to the
point the garden was a total loss by the time the ag agent recommended a
good chemical spray. More organic matter will be added this fall and for no
other reason than to help our heavy clay soil support veggies.

Sounds like you've never gotten past the idea that you have to dose the
garden with SOMETHING chemical and are dissatisfied with "organic oils and
powders" as an option. Organic gardening is not about store products, one
ailse for the greenies, three ailses for the people who don't care how
much damage they do to the environment. All aisles are equally about
tricking people into unnecessary purchases.

Organic home gardening is about balance. A butterfly garden intentionally
includes plants butterfly larvae will eat, and the adult butterflies will
get nectar and lay eggs. No one says "oh god the butterflies are eating my
garden, I have to kill all the butterflies!" though their larvae certainly
are eating there. It's about BALANCE so no one insect becomes so numerous
a garden is injured. You've obviously been using toxic chemicals so long
that you would have to learn patience as well as good gardening practices
to begin to restore a baolance.

You've killed foremost the BENEFICIAL insects so OF COURSE harmful ones
rush back into their ecological niches and to their favorite plants with
no natural predators remaining. The predator insects EVENTUALLY return if
you stop killing poisoning their, and your, environment.

A healthy balanced garden does not need chemical fixes. A healthy garden
will never arise from putting toxic chemicals into it. Every time you
dewscribe another problem that "forces" you to use poisons, you're
describing the result of bad gardening practices which can indeed result
in an endless "battle" with "weapons" in the war zone you've established.
My gardens are places of peace and rarely any upsets. I require no
pesticides whether marketed in the organic aisle or the harmful-gardeners
aisle. You could turn your war zone into a peaceful garden if you'd
restore an organic balance and stop re-toxifying the place every time you
get the negative results virtually all toxifiers get.

-paghat the ratgirl
--
visit my temperate gardening website:
http://www.paghat.com
visit my film reviews website:
http://www.weirdwildrealm.com