"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
...

If a property owner tells you not to enter, you have no choice but to
comply. Your opinion is of no consequence.

not my point, not the point I was making

if my mutt strayed into someones garden I would go and retrieve him. If the
home owner was home I would asked their permission. If they asked me to go I
would but would expect them to deal with the matter of mutt on property and
do so humanely without harm to dog else they would meet my baseball bat. Ie,
I respect peoples right to protect their property and who comes on to their
property.

You're in no position to assume ANYTHING about another person's
property.
If this is not true, then, if I want to apply sealer to my driveway on
a
nice
warm day, it'll be OK with you if I park my car in YOUR driveway,
blocking
in your cars for the 48 hours it takes for my driveway to be ready for
use
again. Clearly, I do not expect anyone in your house to want to drive
anywhere in the next 48 hours.

again, not my point.

Two "not my points" in a row.

see above.

How convenient.

yes, it is convenient. I simply walk onto the property and get dog and if
owners are home, tell them what I am doing there, what I intend to do and
check they are ok with that. If they ask me to leave I do so. Very
convenient and simple to do. Much the same I suppose as you would react if a
Jehovahs Witness or Mormon came knocking on your door.

Mind if I ask how old you are?

35

Thank you.

"George.com" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
...

If a property owner tells you not to enter, you have no choice but to
comply. Your opinion is of no consequence.

not my point, not the point I was making

if my mutt strayed into someones garden I would go and retrieve him. If
the
home owner was home I would asked their permission. If they asked me to go
I
would but would expect them to deal with the matter of mutt on property
and
do so humanely without harm to dog else they would meet my baseball bat.
Ie,
I respect peoples right to protect their property and who comes on to
their
property.

You're in no position to assume ANYTHING about another person's
property.
If this is not true, then, if I want to apply sealer to my driveway
on
a
nice
warm day, it'll be OK with you if I park my car in YOUR driveway,
blocking
in your cars for the 48 hours it takes for my driveway to be ready for
use
again. Clearly, I do not expect anyone in your house to want to drive
anywhere in the next 48 hours.

again, not my point.

Two "not my points" in a row.

see above.

How convenient.

yes, it is convenient. I simply walk onto the property and get dog and if
owners are home, tell them what I am doing there, what I intend to do and
check they are ok with that. If they ask me to leave I do so. Very
convenient and simple to do. Much the same I suppose as you would react if
a
Jehovahs Witness or Mormon came knocking on your door.

Good. I just wanted to be sure you understood the concept of private
property, the violation of which generates almost as many court appearances
as do speeding tickets.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"George.com" wrote in message
...

If a property owner tells you not to enter, you have no choice but
to
comply. Your opinion is of no consequence.

not my point, not the point I was making

if my mutt strayed into someones garden I would go and retrieve him. If
the
home owner was home I would asked their permission. If they asked me to
go
I
would but would expect them to deal with the matter of mutt on property
and
do so humanely without harm to dog else they would meet my baseball bat.
Ie,
I respect peoples right to protect their property and who comes on to
their
property.

You're in no position to assume ANYTHING about another person's
property.
If this is not true, then, if I want to apply sealer to my driveway
on
a
nice
warm day, it'll be OK with you if I park my car in YOUR driveway,
blocking
in your cars for the 48 hours it takes for my driveway to be ready
for
use
again. Clearly, I do not expect anyone in your house to want to
drive
anywhere in the next 48 hours.

again, not my point.

Two "not my points" in a row.

see above.

How convenient.

yes, it is convenient. I simply walk onto the property and get dog and
if
owners are home, tell them what I am doing there, what I intend to do
and
check they are ok with that. If they ask me to leave I do so. Very
convenient and simple to do. Much the same I suppose as you would react
if
a
Jehovahs Witness or Mormon came knocking on your door.

Good. I just wanted to be sure you understood the concept of private
property, the violation of which generates almost as many court
appearances
as do speeding tickets.

Doug, rest assured I understand private property. I also work to develop
relations with neighbours. Walking the mutts and having a yack to the
community is a good way of developing a neighbourhood network. I do not
fixate on it however like say, some of the libertarian nutters who take
private property to an extreme and start moaning about 'all taxation being
theft' etc. Those f wits are so out of touch with reality they need to be
committed. I do however accord peoples home and gardens the same respect I
would expect of others. In my view, neighbourhoods, communities and
societies are based on reciprocal arrangements and the building of social
capital and interdependancies. Slavish adherence to individualism destroys
that. I have found that simple thigs, like giving away summer plums to
neighbours or grapes when in season, creates relationships over time. Things
my grand parents and parents did/do. Something younger generations (mine and
below) seem to have lost a command of in some respects.

rob

rob

"George.com" wrote in message
...

Good. I just wanted to be sure you understood the concept of private
property, the violation of which generates almost as many court
appearances
as do speeding tickets.

Doug, rest assured I understand private property. I also work to develop
relations with neighbours. Walking the mutts and having a yack to the
community is a good way of developing a neighbourhood network. I do not
fixate on it however like say, some of the libertarian nutters who take
private property to an extreme and start moaning about 'all taxation being
theft' etc. Those f wits are so out of touch with reality they need to be
committed. I do however accord peoples home and gardens the same respect I
would expect of others. In my view, neighbourhoods, communities and
societies are based on reciprocal arrangements and the building of social
capital and interdependancies. Slavish adherence to individualism destroys
that. I have found that simple thigs, like giving away summer plums to
neighbours or grapes when in season, creates relationships over time.
Things
my grand parents and parents did/do. Something younger generations (mine
and
below) seem to have lost a command of in some respects.

rob

rob



Reciprocal arrangements - I like that! Here's one: When dog owners license
their little pets, they should be required to provide a DNA sample from the
dog, and depost $1000.00 into an escrow account which we normal people can
draw on when we need to have our carpets cleaned or replaced because your
beasts crapped on our lawns. Now we're talking personal responsibility!

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Doug Kanter" contains these words:


Reciprocal arrangements - I like that! Here's one: When dog owners
license
their little pets, they should be required to provide a DNA sample from
the
dog, and depost $1000.00 into an escrow account which we normal people
can
draw on when we need to have our carpets cleaned or replaced because your
beasts crapped on our lawns. Now we're talking personal responsibility!

Don't people take personal responsibility for protecting their own
carpets by checking their own shoes when they come in from the garden
(for mud, grass, water or oil, as well as dog dirt). ?

Janet


When I come home from "the outside world", of course I check my shoes, or
more likely, remove them. On my own property, there is never spilled oil. If
I'm gardening and it's muddy, I adjust my behavior. That's MY choice.

Janet, you're a smart lady. Here's a statement:

"I want to go outside at midnight, wander around my yard, look at the stars,
and see if the moonflowers have opened".

Please tell me what I said in that sentence. It's an exercise of sorts.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in
message ...
The message
from "Doug Kanter" contains
these words:


Reciprocal arrangements - I like that! Here's one: When
dog owners license
their little pets, they should be required to provide a
DNA sample from the
dog, and depost $1000.00 into an escrow account which we
normal people can
draw on when we need to have our carpets cleaned or
replaced because your beasts crapped on our lawns. Now
we're talking personal responsibility!

Don't people take personal responsibility for protecting
their own
carpets by checking their own shoes when they come in from
the garden (for mud, grass, water or oil, as well as dog
dirt). ?

Janet


When I come home from "the outside world", of course I
check my shoes, or more likely, remove them. On my own
property, there is never spilled oil. If I'm gardening and
it's muddy, I adjust my behavior. That's MY choice.

Janet, you're a smart lady. Here's a statement:

"I want to go outside at midnight, wander around my yard,
look at the stars, and see if the moonflowers have opened".

Please tell me what I said in that sentence. It's an
exercise of sorts.

you know, Doug, there are a large variety of fences available
that would solve your neigbor dog issues. if you can't simply
ask your neighbors nicely to keep thier dogs off the lawn
and/or clean up after them, then the next logical step is to
prevent the dogs from getting access to the lawn to start
with... a fence.
doesn't have to be a huge hulking 6' barracade (although that
might suit you ). most city dogs aren't very big & a 3 foot
picket fence would be sufficient physical barrier without
making you appear anti-social. plus it gives you a nice
background to plant climbing roses & clematis on...
i dunno what area of Rochester you live in though... i was
from Irondequoit, with pretty big yards (to a 4 year old
anyway), but some neighborhoods have pretty tiny yards (like
my MIL on Culver... well, *i* think her yard is tiny but i'm
on 62 acres, so bias is present. anyway, wouldn't it easier on
you to find a solution than to let the inconsiderate idiots
eat at you like they seem to? i mean, i have 2 dogs, BIG dogs
(because what's the point in owning a dog too small to see?) &
even though i'm in a rural area, i do not let my dogs leave
droppings where ever. that's just wrong.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

"enigma" wrote in message
. ..
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in
message ...
The message
from "Doug Kanter" contains
these words:


Reciprocal arrangements - I like that! Here's one: When
dog owners license
their little pets, they should be required to provide a
DNA sample from the
dog, and depost $1000.00 into an escrow account which we
normal people can
draw on when we need to have our carpets cleaned or
replaced because your beasts crapped on our lawns. Now
we're talking personal responsibility!

Don't people take personal responsibility for protecting
their own
carpets by checking their own shoes when they come in from
the garden (for mud, grass, water or oil, as well as dog
dirt). ?

Janet


When I come home from "the outside world", of course I
check my shoes, or more likely, remove them. On my own
property, there is never spilled oil. If I'm gardening and
it's muddy, I adjust my behavior. That's MY choice.

Janet, you're a smart lady. Here's a statement:

"I want to go outside at midnight, wander around my yard,
look at the stars, and see if the moonflowers have opened".

Please tell me what I said in that sentence. It's an
exercise of sorts.

you know, Doug, there are a large variety of fences available
that would solve your neigbor dog issues. if you can't simply
ask your neighbors nicely to keep thier dogs off the lawn
and/or clean up after them, then the next logical step is to
prevent the dogs from getting access to the lawn to start
with... a fence.
doesn't have to be a huge hulking 6' barracade (although that
might suit you ). most city dogs aren't very big & a 3 foot
picket fence would be sufficient physical barrier without
making you appear anti-social. plus it gives you a nice
background to plant climbing roses & clematis on...
i dunno what area of Rochester you live in though... i was
from Irondequoit, with pretty big yards (to a 4 year old
anyway), but some neighborhoods have pretty tiny yards (like
my MIL on Culver... well, *i* think her yard is tiny but i'm
on 62 acres, so bias is present. anyway, wouldn't it easier on
you to find a solution than to let the inconsiderate idiots
eat at you like they seem to? i mean, i have 2 dogs, BIG dogs
(because what's the point in owning a dog too small to see?) &
even though i'm in a rural area, i do not let my dogs leave
droppings where ever. that's just wrong.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

First of all, we're talking about dogs on leashes, with people attached.
Not strays - they are a separate issue that's easier to deal with. Onward:

I *do* ask people not to stop their dogs on my grass, and I do so very
politely. Unfortunately, some of them refuse to comply, which simply baffles
me. Their logic is that the first 8 feet is "public property", which is
completely untrue. The reality is that the town and the utilities have
permanent easements which allow them to do certain types of construction or
maintenance.

As far as fences, two problems: First, you cannot erect a fence within that
first 8 feet, so that leaves a pretty large area of property unprotected.
And second, I can't afford a fence, nor should I have to. It's not for me to
spend money in order to deal with other peoples' stupid behavioral problems.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

you know, Doug, there are a large variety of fences
available that would solve your neigbor dog issues. if you
can't simply ask your neighbors nicely to keep thier dogs
off the lawn and/or clean up after them, then the next
logical step is to prevent the dogs from getting access to
the lawn to start with... a fence.

First of all, we're talking about dogs on leashes, with
people attached.
Not strays - they are a separate issue that's easier to
deal with. Onward:

well, yes, i understood that. i've seen very few strays
wandering around there when i visit. i understand it tends to
cost the owner a chunk of change to retrieve Fido from
Lollypop Farm. however...

I *do* ask people not to stop their dogs on my grass, and I
do so very politely. Unfortunately, some of them refuse to
comply, which simply baffles me. Their logic is that the
first 8 feet is "public property", which is completely
untrue. The reality is that the town and the utilities have
permanent easements which allow them to do certain types of
construction or maintenance.

are your easements, in fact, 8 feet? it's possible they're as
narrow as 4 feet. you are however, correct. they are utility
easements, not public areas.
anyway, i'm wondering about the width of the easement & the
actual laws about not fencing it, because there are homes with
fences quite close to the sidewalks (or brick walls even). as
long as the utilities have access to thier ROW, they tend not
to be concerned about fences (although one can't expect them
to not damage part of one if they have to dig, i think).
i know i have an electric ROW through my pasture, which is,
obviously, fenced. the crew checks with me before doing
linework if possible, but it *is* thier ROW... i expect
they're trained to deal with livestock underfoot... at least
they did pretty good when those lines came down during Wilma
last fall (they even fixed my fence they had to take down
temporarily).

As far as fences, two problems: First, you cannot erect a
fence within that first 8 feet, so that leaves a pretty
large area of property unprotected. And second, I can't
afford a fence, nor should I have to. It's not for me to
spend money in order to deal with other peoples' stupid
behavioral problems.

well, no, you shouldn't, but if asking nicely isn't getting
them to restrain themselves or thier dogs, it seems blocking
them is mentally healthier than simply fuming... of course,
you have come up with some pretty creative dog doom scenarios,
so maybe you actually enjoy that to some extent
maybe your problem is more common than you think? it does
seem to me than most front yards there are just boring lawn,
with a token flowering dogwood or crabapple and all the
"nice" gardening is done out back of the house... hmmmm.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

"enigma" wrote in message
. ..
"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

you know, Doug, there are a large variety of fences
available that would solve your neigbor dog issues. if you
can't simply ask your neighbors nicely to keep thier dogs
off the lawn and/or clean up after them, then the next
logical step is to prevent the dogs from getting access to
the lawn to start with... a fence.

First of all, we're talking about dogs on leashes, with
people attached.
Not strays - they are a separate issue that's easier to
deal with. Onward:

well, yes, i understood that. i've seen very few strays
wandering around there when i visit. i understand it tends to
cost the owner a chunk of change to retrieve Fido from
Lollypop Farm. however...

I *do* ask people not to stop their dogs on my grass, and I
do so very politely. Unfortunately, some of them refuse to
comply, which simply baffles me. Their logic is that the
first 8 feet is "public property", which is completely
untrue. The reality is that the town and the utilities have
permanent easements which allow them to do certain types of
construction or maintenance.

are your easements, in fact, 8 feet? it's possible they're as
narrow as 4 feet. you are however, correct. they are utility
easements, not public areas.
anyway, i'm wondering about the width of the easement & the
actual laws about not fencing it, because there are homes with
fences quite close to the sidewalks (or brick walls even). as
long as the utilities have access to thier ROW, they tend not
to be concerned about fences (although one can't expect them
to not damage part of one if they have to dig, i think).
i know i have an electric ROW through my pasture, which is,
obviously, fenced. the crew checks with me before doing
linework if possible, but it *is* thier ROW... i expect
they're trained to deal with livestock underfoot... at least
they did pretty good when those lines came down during Wilma
last fall (they even fixed my fence they had to take down
temporarily).

As far as fences, two problems: First, you cannot erect a
fence within that first 8 feet, so that leaves a pretty
large area of property unprotected. And second, I can't
afford a fence, nor should I have to. It's not for me to
spend money in order to deal with other peoples' stupid
behavioral problems.

well, no, you shouldn't, but if asking nicely isn't getting
them to restrain themselves or thier dogs, it seems blocking
them is mentally healthier than simply fuming... of course,
you have come up with some pretty creative dog doom scenarios,
so maybe you actually enjoy that to some extent
maybe your problem is more common than you think? it does
seem to me than most front yards there are just boring lawn,
with a token flowering dogwood or crabapple and all the
"nice" gardening is done out back of the house... hmmmm.
lee
--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

My garden is nationwide. It's everywhere.

Anyway...I may have just solved the problem. On our police force of 30-ish
officers, there is just one who thinks creatively, and seems to be as much a
scholar of the law as the town justice. She just stopped by, listened, and
explained that it's not necessary to have signs posted in order to charge
someone with trespassing. The alternative is a verbal request which is
ignored. She said she'd be delighted (her word) to present a low life with a
summons, meet them in court, and watch as they try to tell a judge that they
are somehow above the law because they have a dog.

"Erik Vastmasd" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:45:56 +0000 (UTC), enigma plucked a feather
from Fawkes, dipped it into the ink well and then scribed:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in
message ...
The message
from "Doug Kanter" contains
these words:

Don't people take personal responsibility for protecting
their own
carpets by checking their own shoes when they come in from
the garden (for mud, grass, water or oil, as well as dog
dirt). ?

When I come home from "the outside world", of course I
check my shoes, or more likely, remove them. On my own
property, there is never spilled oil. If I'm gardening and
it's muddy, I adjust my behavior. That's MY choice.

Janet, you're a smart lady. Here's a statement:

"I want to go outside at midnight, wander around my yard,
look at the stars, and see if the moonflowers have opened".

Please tell me what I said in that sentence. It's an
exercise of sorts.

you know, Doug, there are a large variety of fences available
that would solve your neigbor dog issues. if you can't simply
ask your neighbors nicely to keep thier dogs off the lawn
and/or clean up after them, then the next logical step is to
prevent the dogs from getting access to the lawn to start
with... a fence.

I have dogs as do many people in our community and we don't appear to
be having as many problems as has been reported here. Local Councils
in most of our suburban areas provide off-lead areas where dog owners
can exercise their dogs. If dogs are exercised outside of these areas
then dogs must be restrained by a leash. At all times dog owners are
expected to pick up after their dogs and if they fail to do so they
risk being prosecuted.

--
Regards Erik Vastmasd

Here, the risk of prosecution is minimal. But really, this discussion is
about people who have been politely told to do it elsewhere, even if they DO
plan on cleaning it up, and they have refused to obey. Civil trespass, in
other words.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:


My garden is nationwide. It's everywhere.

but not everyone has the dogowner problem (it really isn't a
dog problem, it's owners that don't bother to train Fido to do
his business in one corner of *thier* yard *before* embarking
on exercise around the neighborhood). dogs *can* be trained to
eliminate on command... personally, i'll settle for picking a
spot & making them use that *one* area, but that's me.

Anyway...I may have just solved the problem. On our police
force of 30-ish officers, there is just one who thinks
creatively, and seems to be as much a scholar of the law as
the town justice. She just stopped by, listened, and
explained that it's not necessary to have signs posted in
order to charge someone with trespassing. The alternative
is a verbal request which is ignored. She said she'd be
delighted (her word) to present a low life with a summons,
meet them in court, and watch as they try to tell a judge
that they are somehow above the law because they have a
dog.

that sounds somewhat promising. how much will it cost you
though? sounds like a small claim civil matter? (OTOH, my one
big court case was suing for false advertising on a VW Bug i
bought in the late 70s. it was sold as 'in great, inspectable
condition'. it had gaping holes in the heater boxes & floor
(under the mat). i asked for my money back when it failed
inspection, he said no. shrug his sole defense when it made
it to court was he was ex-Navy, as was the judge. fortunately
the judge found that as irrelevent as i did. i got my money,
my court costs *and* the car, which i sold to a body shop for
more than i paid...)
so, maybe it'll work for you.
lee

--
war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength
1984-George Orwell

"enigma" wrote in message
. ..

"Doug Kanter" wrote in
:


My garden is nationwide. It's everywhere.

but not everyone has the dogowner problem (it really isn't a
dog problem, it's owners that don't bother to train Fido to do
his business in one corner of *thier* yard *before* embarking
on exercise around the neighborhood). dogs *can* be trained to
eliminate on command... personally, i'll settle for picking a
spot & making them use that *one* area, but that's me.

Anyway...I may have just solved the problem. On our police
force of 30-ish officers, there is just one who thinks
creatively, and seems to be as much a scholar of the law as
the town justice. She just stopped by, listened, and
explained that it's not necessary to have signs posted in
order to charge someone with trespassing. The alternative
is a verbal request which is ignored. She said she'd be
delighted (her word) to present a low life with a summons,
meet them in court, and watch as they try to tell a judge
that they are somehow above the law because they have a
dog.

that sounds somewhat promising. how much will it cost you
though? sounds like a small claim civil matter? (OTOH, my one
big court case was suing for false advertising on a VW Bug i
bought in the late 70s. it was sold as 'in great, inspectable
condition'. it had gaping holes in the heater boxes & floor
(under the mat). i asked for my money back when it failed
inspection, he said no. shrug his sole defense when it made
it to court was he was ex-Navy, as was the judge. fortunately
the judge found that as irrelevent as i did. i got my money,
my court costs *and* the car, which i sold to a body shop for
more than i paid...)
so, maybe it'll work for you.
lee

Small claims court costs a few bucks, but there are no monetary claims being
made here. There's the dog owner, me, and a police officer.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Reciprocal arrangements - I like that! Here's one: When
dog owners license
their little pets, they should be required to provide a
DNA sample from the
dog, and depost $1000.00 into an escrow account which we
normal people can
draw on when we need to have our carpets cleaned or
replaced because your beasts crapped on our lawns. Now
we're talking personal responsibility!

Don't people take personal responsibility for protecting
their own
carpets by checking their own shoes when they come in from
the garden (for mud, grass, water or oil, as well as dog
dirt). ?

Janet


When I come home from "the outside world", of course I
check my shoes, or more likely, remove them. On my own
property, there is never spilled oil. If I'm gardening and
it's muddy, I adjust my behavior. That's MY choice.

Janet, you're a smart lady. Here's a statement:

"I want to go outside at midnight, wander around my yard,
look at the stars, and see if the moonflowers have opened".

Please tell me what I said in that sentence. It's an
exercise of sorts.


First of all, we're talking about dogs on leashes, with people attached.
Not strays - they are a separate issue that's easier to deal with. Onward:

I *do* ask people not to stop their dogs on my grass, and I do so very
politely. Unfortunately, some of them refuse to comply, which simply
baffles
me. Their logic is that the first 8 feet is "public property", which is
completely untrue. The reality is that the town and the utilities have
permanent easements which allow them to do certain types of construction
or
maintenance.

As far as fences, two problems: First, you cannot erect a fence within
that
first 8 feet, so that leaves a pretty large area of property unprotected.
And second, I can't afford a fence, nor should I have to. It's not for me
to
spend money in order to deal with other peoples' stupid behavioral
problems.

Doug, I will be honest but I am not doing so to antagonise you or overly
antagonise you, I think you need to chill out a little, smoke some dope or
whatever and not fixate so much on dog shit. I have clearly stated my
approach to dog ownership and dog walking, it is a responsable approach.
Other dog owners I know have the same standards, they are reasonable people.
If you apply a test of reasonableness to my approach to walking mutts I
think it will hold up well.

Expecting people to pay $1,000 into an account for your carpets clearly is
not reasonable. Either you are taking the **** or you are serious. If the
former, I give you marks for cheekiness, if the latter then you fail the
test of reasonableness. The state of your carpets are your responsibility.
You can remove your shoes, you can buy a mat. You don't blame anyone else
for your failure to check what you tramp in. Likewise, if you are clumsy
enough to spill wine on your carpet you don't blame the maker of the glass
for it being smooth or having a slender stem etc. Your choice, your
responsibility. If my dog did, for some reason, crap on someones lawn I
would take responsibility to remove it. My responsibility. Responsibilities,
yours and mine.

Reasonable dog owners keep their dogs off peoples property when walking just
as responsible child owners keep their children out of other peoples gardens
when walking. I don't know what it is about your situation Doug but my
neighbourhood does not have the problem you describe of people walking their
dogs on to your front lawn to crap. Dogs certainly crap on the grass verge
outside my house and my dogs do outside other peoples. The shit, of course,
gets picked up. However, and an important matter here, you or I or anyone
else has no right (none whatsoever) to instruct someone not to allow their
dog to shit on the grass verge. We can tell them to pick up the shit
however. Just as you or I have no ability to tell a parent what their child
can or can't do when walking along the footpath.

Hope I have outlined that clearly for you.

rob

"George.com" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...


Reciprocal arrangements - I like that! Here's one: When
dog owners license
their little pets, they should be required to provide a
DNA sample from the
dog, and depost $1000.00 into an escrow account which we
normal people can
draw on when we need to have our carpets cleaned or
replaced because your beasts crapped on our lawns. Now
we're talking personal responsibility!

Don't people take personal responsibility for protecting
their own
carpets by checking their own shoes when they come in from
the garden (for mud, grass, water or oil, as well as dog
dirt). ?

Janet


When I come home from "the outside world", of course I
check my shoes, or more likely, remove them. On my own
property, there is never spilled oil. If I'm gardening and
it's muddy, I adjust my behavior. That's MY choice.

Janet, you're a smart lady. Here's a statement:

"I want to go outside at midnight, wander around my yard,
look at the stars, and see if the moonflowers have opened".

Please tell me what I said in that sentence. It's an
exercise of sorts.


First of all, we're talking about dogs on leashes, with people attached.
Not strays - they are a separate issue that's easier to deal with.
Onward:

I *do* ask people not to stop their dogs on my grass, and I do so very
politely. Unfortunately, some of them refuse to comply, which simply
baffles
me. Their logic is that the first 8 feet is "public property", which is
completely untrue. The reality is that the town and the utilities have
permanent easements which allow them to do certain types of construction
or
maintenance.

As far as fences, two problems: First, you cannot erect a fence within
that
first 8 feet, so that leaves a pretty large area of property unprotected.
And second, I can't afford a fence, nor should I have to. It's not for me
to
spend money in order to deal with other peoples' stupid behavioral
problems.

Doug, I will be honest but I am not doing so to antagonise you or overly
antagonise you, I think you need to chill out a little, smoke some dope or
whatever and not fixate so much on dog shit. I have clearly stated my
approach to dog ownership and dog walking, it is a responsable approach.
Other dog owners I know have the same standards, they are reasonable
people.
If you apply a test of reasonableness to my approach to walking mutts I
think it will hold up well.

Expecting people to pay $1,000 into an account for your carpets clearly is
not reasonable. Either you are taking the **** or you are serious. If the
former, I give you marks for cheekiness, if the latter then you fail the
test of reasonableness. The state of your carpets are your responsibility.
You can remove your shoes, you can buy a mat. You don't blame anyone else
for your failure to check what you tramp in. Likewise, if you are clumsy
enough to spill wine on your carpet you don't blame the maker of the glass
for it being smooth or having a slender stem etc. Your choice, your
responsibility. If my dog did, for some reason, crap on someones lawn I
would take responsibility to remove it. My responsibility.
Responsibilities,
yours and mine.

Reasonable dog owners keep their dogs off peoples property when walking
just
as responsible child owners keep their children out of other peoples
gardens
when walking. I don't know what it is about your situation Doug but my
neighbourhood does not have the problem you describe of people walking
their
dogs on to your front lawn to crap. Dogs certainly crap on the grass verge
outside my house and my dogs do outside other peoples. The shit, of
course,
gets picked up. However, and an important matter here, you or I or anyone
else has no right (none whatsoever) to instruct someone not to allow their
dog to shit on the grass verge. We can tell them to pick up the shit
however. Just as you or I have no ability to tell a parent what their
child
can or can't do when walking along the footpath.

Hope I have outlined that clearly for you.

rob




The bottom line, really, is that when I go out at night to look at the
stars, that's what I want to do. I don't want to have to inspect the ground
with a flashlight. I want to look up. The statement "I want to look at the
stars" cannot be interpreted to mean "I want to spend 20 minutes scraping
dog shit off my shoes".

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Doug Kanter" contains these words:

The bottom line, really, is that when I go out at night to look at the
stars, that's what I want to do. I don't want to have to inspect the
ground
with a flashlight. I want to look up. The statement "I want to look at
the
stars" cannot be interpreted to mean "I want to spend 20 minutes scraping
dog shit off my shoes".

But to protect your carpets , all you need do is slip off your shoes
at the door. That's the bottom line.

Janet.

Janet, I think you would agree that some people have eyes, but do not see,
and ears, but do not listen, right? Humor me for the moment and answer this
question.