"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"cat daddy" wrote:

Spread it on the ground, pile it up, add stuff or not....... Just
don't bag it up and throw it away. It's all good.

Sound advice! Would add the less energy we put in the better. May
not be real fast but time is not the issue preserving organic matter
is. I value anything that was once alive. Anything that passed thru a
living organism better. That may make it easier for plants to recycle
again to us.

Bill

I've become quite enamored of the lasagna and no-till concepts of
gardening. I don't work anything into the ground anymore, the prospect of
which would generally deter me from adding organic matter in a timely
fashion. Keeping the soil strata intact and not scaring the worms, just like
Nature does it, is the best.....

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:04:18 -0500, "cat daddy"
wrote:


"William Wagner" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"cat daddy" wrote:

Spread it on the ground, pile it up, add stuff or not....... Just
don't bag it up and throw it away. It's all good.

This statement should become a standard. I've added it to my garden
quotes file, with proper attribution, of course. :-)


Sound advice! Would add the less energy we put in the better. May
not be real fast but time is not the issue preserving organic matter
is. I value anything that was once alive. Anything that passed thru a
living organism better. That may make it easier for plants to recycle
again to us.

Bill

I've become quite enamored of the lasagna and no-till concepts of
gardening. I don't work anything into the ground anymore, the prospect of
which would generally deter me from adding organic matter in a timely
fashion. Keeping the soil strata intact and not scaring the worms, just like
Nature does it, is the best.....


Ok, this has me thinking about what I have been doing, which is
loosening the soil with a garden fork, or better if I had one, a
broadfork. I'm certainly not arguing, just looking for the easiest and
most beneficial way of improving and maintaining my soil.

My thinking, and others too, is that loosening the soil with a fork
allows for aeration and sifting downwards af soil amendments...compost,
ash, powdered stone, whatever. Is this too a waste of my energy and
time and not that beneficial? I do raised beds and containers, so
compaction from foot traffic is not an issue. One thing for sure, I
haven't used a tiller for several years. Shooting rabbits in the
garden doesn't trouble me, or pinching caterpillars of the bad kind,
but the sight of chopped worms is just wrong.

Is what you are describing also described as "The Stout Method"? I
thought the biointensive method as espoused by Jeavons sounded best and
it was beginning to produce great results. One thing I didn't do, was
the double (or even triple) digging that is recommended in some of the
biointensive methods.

This whole business of food production is appearing to be more simple
than I had imagined, and I am continually deconstructing my methods and
knowledge. I guess the old KISS acronym applies.

Thanks for the re-direction.

Charlie

Starting On a Journey 2:35 Yoshida Brothers The Yoshida Brothers
World 100 1 8/9/06 6:02 PM

Bill who wonders what best practice is and is VERY GRATEFUL 2 inches
of rain came last night.

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

In article , Charlie wrote:

My thinking, and others too, is that loosening the soil with a fork
allows for aeration and sifting downwards af soil amendments...compost,
ash, powdered stone, whatever. Is this too a waste of my energy and
time and not that beneficial?

The opine that I'm working with is that loosening the soil in the manner
you described would damage the hallways the worms have built (reducing
aeration of the soil and damage the mycelium of fungi in the garden
beds. Both are important for the ecology of the bed. If your beds aren't
raised, you may want to consider stepping stones to spread out the
pressure from foot steps and reduce compaction. I'm trying to grow
clover between the stones.

My current plan is to lay down newsprint or card board on the garden as
it shuts down and then spread mulch on top of that. Maybe I'll add some
bone meal and phosphate as well.

How long is it till March?
--
FB - FFF

Billy

Get up, stand up, stand up for yor rights.
Get up, stand up, Don't give up the fight.
- Bob Marley

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:04:18 -0500, "cat daddy"
wrote:

"William Wagner" wrote in message

..
..
In article ,
"cat daddy" wrote:

Spread it on the ground, pile it up, add stuff or not....... Just
don't bag it up and throw it away. It's all good.

This statement should become a standard. I've added it to my garden
quotes file, with proper attribution, of course. :-)

I'm honoured. Had I known I would have fancied it up with talk of Daleks
and mychorrizae and "It's not humus!" and stuff........... Nah...

Sound advice! Would add the less energy we put in the better. May
not be real fast but time is not the issue preserving organic matter
is. I value anything that was once alive. Anything that passed thru a
living organism better. That may make it easier for plants to recycle
again to us.

Bill

I've become quite enamored of the lasagna and no-till concepts of
gardening. I don't work anything into the ground anymore, the prospect of
which would generally deter me from adding organic matter in a timely
fashion. Keeping the soil strata intact and not scaring the worms, just
like
Nature does it, is the best.....


Ok, this has me thinking about what I have been doing, which is
loosening the soil with a garden fork, or better if I had one, a
broadfork. I'm certainly not arguing, just looking for the easiest and
most beneficial way of improving and maintaining my soil.

I won't pretend to have an answer here. But, I noticed that after a few
years of incorporating soil ammendments with a fork, it always seemed to
revert to the same come Spring. Sandy loam that's fine when damp and rock
hard when dry. I figured the plants roots would best adjust to homogenous
soil, rather than a top layer of potting mix and then hit normal soil. Billy
said it best that perhaps it's doing more damage to the soil strata, that
then has to recover.

My thinking, and others too, is that loosening the soil with a fork
allows for aeration and sifting downwards af soil amendments...compost,
ash, powdered stone, whatever. Is this too a waste of my energy and
time and not that beneficial? I do raised beds and containers, so
compaction from foot traffic is not an issue. One thing for sure, I
haven't used a tiller for several years. Shooting rabbits in the
garden doesn't trouble me, or pinching caterpillars of the bad kind,
but the sight of chopped worms is just wrong.

Yeah, it pained me that I might be trashing the worms environment. I
stopped using Miracle Gro when I noticed that the worms seemed to seek
refuge around a plants roots, away from the chemical bath I was giving them.
I rarely even water the beds anymore. Some things do better than others,
and the ones that don't are not meant to be. I have some day lillies in the
front beds that rarely bloom, next to the hippeastrum that bloom and
reproduce like rabbits. The transplanted day lillies in the back that I
really neglect bloom nicely.

Is what you are describing also described as "The Stout Method"? I
thought the biointensive method as espoused by Jeavons sounded best and
it was beginning to produce great results. One thing I didn't do, was
the double (or even triple) digging that is recommended in some of the
biointensive methods.

I kinda came to my own conclusions, but it most definitely parallels the
Stout Method. Mostly because I was disinterested in the digging, and in the
two houses I've lived in, I inherited long neglected beds. So, I'd throw
some mulch on top and see what came up the next year. I couldn't really
wreck it all by digging it up, and after planting a few extra things, it
became impractical to do so.

This whole business of food production is appearing to be more simple
than I had imagined, and I am continually deconstructing my methods and
knowledge. I guess the old KISS acronym applies.

And your discussions here have re-directed my interest in growing
something edible, rather than ornamental. Actually both, as next year I'm
going to rip out the shrubs along the street and plant peppers. Anyone who
wants to pick them as they walk by are welcome. And maybe peas and beans,
instead of wisteria on the trellises and fence. Front yard food......

Thanks for the re-direction.

Charlie

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:55:05 -0400, Ann wrote:

Charlie expounded:

You need winter
for reflection and rejuvenation, as does your soil.

We need winter to have Spring, my favorite season. Renewal.

My favorite season is autumn. Harvesting, preparing for the lean times
of winter, a winding down. I like winter pretty well also, with the
seasonal celebrations and family times 'round the fire, so to speak.

I wonder if peoples' personalities dictate their seasonal preferences
and or weather preferences. I prefer gloomy rainy/snowy days, always
have.......kinda matches my dispostion, ya' think? ;-)

Charlie

I like them all but I also like to see them transform or go. Early Dec
snow is wonderful but about April it is time to see new life. Summer
heat and swimming a joy but dry crisp fall becomes desirable. In a way
what we have we like but soon tire of it and want change perhaps.
This with the knowledge that San Francisco or Mykonos are alluring.
My son was at a house on Mykonos last week. . Photos are beautiful with
sea and sky but plant life is rare. I'd say desolate. But some folks
say plant life and others say plant material.
New growth in the spring and who does not think a little bit of Druid
lies in one's heart. Now where is that mistletoe we found ? Dark sky
can be forboding or a promise of rain.

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

On 10/11/07 10:34 AM, in article ,
"Charlie" Charlie wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 07:55:05 -0400, Ann wrote:

Charlie expounded:

You need winter
for reflection and rejuvenation, as does your soil.

We need winter to have Spring, my favorite season. Renewal.

My favorite season is autumn. Harvesting, preparing for the lean times
of winter, a winding down. I like winter pretty well also, with the
seasonal celebrations and family times 'round the fire, so to speak.

I wonder if peoples' personalities dictate their seasonal preferences
and or weather preferences. I prefer gloomy rainy/snowy days, always
have.......kinda matches my dispostion, ya' think? ;-)

Charlie



I like to think of fall as the start of the year - always have. I love the
harvest and feeling of settling in for the long haul. Spring and summer
always go to quick.

Cheryl

I've been reading this thread with great interest, in particular the part
about alfalfa meal for the compost pile (embarrassed to say I've never heard
of this one,
and I was a nursery manager/buyer for 12 years in D.C.)

Question: are those of you who don't dig the soil or add materials
referring solely to edible plants/annuals/very tough perennials? Wouldn't
you dig the soil well and add
organic matter for shrubs, trees, and perennials, especially those which
require excellent drainage?

In article ,
Janet Baraclough wrote:

The message

from William Wagner contains these words:

My son was at a house on Mykonos last week. . Photos are beautiful with
sea and sky but plant life is rare. I'd say desolate.

Do you mean Mykonos Greece? Greece and its islands have probably the
widest variety of native flora in Europe; but only visible for a short
season. People travel there in spring to see the fantastic natural
carpets of brilliantly coloured bulbs and annual wildflowers that erupt
from stony ground after the winter wet; it looks just like some medieval
painting of Paradise with cyclamen, poppies, cistus, daisies, crocus,
scillas. Everything goes quickly to seed as summer arrives then all the
foliage burns off and disappears again.

Just a tiny glimpse of it here

http://travel.webshots.com/photo/133...SE#commentForm

Janet..

I guess our images were after the short season. All I saw was white
sand.

Bill

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

In article ,
"AlanG" wrote:

I've been reading this thread with great interest, in particular the part
about alfalfa meal for the compost pile (embarrassed to say I've never heard
of this one,
and I was a nursery manager/buyer for 12 years in D.C.)

Question: are those of you who don't dig the soil or add materials
referring solely to edible plants/annuals/very tough perennials? Wouldn't
you dig the soil well and add
organic matter for shrubs, trees, and perennials, especially those which
require excellent drainage?

Require excellent drainage is not something we speak of about here in
sandy loam country. I guess if you want excellent drainage or acidic
soil you must apply sand and acid creating amenities. I use oak leaves
which are about big time. Seems you may want to plant something that
would not live there unless you apply help or energy. Your additions
are added expense but going cheap has it virtues.

Bill whose brother is a nursery manager too for about 30 years. We
differ on plant life philosophy. I favor my Dad and that English guy
long gone.

Any way here is a video.

http://www.kitchengardeners.org/

--

S Jersey USA Zone 5 Shade

This article is posted under fair use rules in accordance with
Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, and is strictly for the educational
and informative purposes. This material is distributed without profit.

http://www.ocutech.com/ High tech Vison aid

Charlie wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:20:34 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Charlie contains these words:

Ok, this has me thinking about what I have been doing, which is
loosening the soil with a garden fork, or better if I had one, a
broadfork. I'm certainly not arguing, just looking for the easiest and
most beneficial way of improving and maintaining my soil.
My thinking, and others too, is that loosening the soil with a fork
allows for aeration and sifting downwards af soil amendments...compost,
ash, powdered stone, whatever. Is this too a waste of my energy and
time and not that beneficial?
Why do all the work that worms will do for free? I keep topping up a
deep layer of soft mulch material on the soil surface (grass
clippings, leaves, wood ash, seaweed, herbage such as comfrey, nettles,
bracken, home made compost), which attracts a huge breeding population
of worms to feed on the decaying material.. The worms make soil tunnels
(which let in air and water and nutrients), and excrete perfect
fertiliser all through the soil. Birds looking for the worms, constantly
scratch and turn over the mulch, breaking it down even faster and
gobbling up all sorts of slugs and bugs they find.

The superiority of the natural, undisturbed soil structure this creates,
is demonstrated by the amazing growth rate of plants (without any
chemical fertilisers at all).

Well, I'm convinced... and pleased that less work appears to be another
benefit. Even what I have been doing has had great results; less
weeds, increased production, increased plant population (which results
in cooler soil temps and a living mulch canopy) and very few bad bugs.
I am looking forward to this. This sounds like it could easily be
implemented on a large scale.

Thanks.

Care
Charlie


Well... I'm glad my simplistic question has sparked a less is more
conversation. However hard to follow at times that it may be, still
entertaining and informative... And what seems to be helpful to alot of
you..

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 00:19:33 -0500, "cat daddy"
wrote:


It gets the pile smokin'....... I usually cover it in black plastic to
retain moisture and heat. The steam shoots out small holes on cool
mornings.
I generally take a couple of scoops from a plastic pitcher per bucket
and let it soak for a few minutes. I used to use rabbit food pellets,
until
I realized how cheap a 50 lb. bag was.


Cheap is right! I picked up a fifty pounder at the feed store today for
a whole whoppin' ten bucks.

Yep, and because it's feed, there's no tax. Something else I like to pick
up is dry molasses. That's mostly a feel good thing for me, although they
say it stimulates beneficial microorganisms. It has trace elements, but I
like the smell, especially when I play around making aerobic teas.......

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:38:50 -0500, "cat daddy"
wrote:


Charlie wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 10 Oct 2007 16:04:18 -0500, "cat daddy"
wrote:



Ok, this has me thinking about what I have been doing, which is
loosening the soil with a garden fork, or better if I had one, a
broadfork. I'm certainly not arguing, just looking for the easiest and
most beneficial way of improving and maintaining my soil.

I won't pretend to have an answer here. But, I noticed that after a
few
years of incorporating soil ammendments with a fork, it always seemed to
revert to the same come Spring. Sandy loam that's fine when damp and rock
hard when dry. I figured the plants roots would best adjust to homogenous
soil, rather than a top layer of potting mix and then hit normal soil.
Billy
said it best that perhaps it's doing more damage to the soil strata, that
then has to recover.

And this brings another thought to mind, When cleaning up and out in
the fall/early winter I pull plants from the ground, roots and all,
disturbing a large area of soil. I wonder if cutting the plant at
ground level would be a better approach, leaving the roots and
surrounding nutrients undisturbed?

That's a hard one. Naturally, all roots stay in the ground after a plant
dies. And, if you think of a field of mixed plants, their roots must all
interwine. But, I imagine disturbing the soil structure on that level is not
so great that it would recover quickly. I always shake the dirt back in the
hole anyway.


This whole business of food production is appearing to be more simple
than I had imagined, and I am continually deconstructing my methods and
knowledge. I guess the old KISS acronym applies.

And your discussions here have re-directed my interest in growing
something edible, rather than ornamental. Actually both, as next year I'm
going to rip out the shrubs along the street and plant peppers. Anyone
who
wants to pick them as they walk by are welcome. And maybe peas and beans,
instead of wisteria on the trellises and fence. Front yard food......

What a great idea, this sharing with passersby! Nice, very nice.

Front yard food is a great idea, particulary given the way thigs be
developing........feh, who needs a lawn to maintain.

It's not an original idea with me. I read an article where some places
it's become quite the fashion. Getting rid of the concept of a lawn has to
become more commonplace. It's wasteful and uninteresting.

Some of our most valued and appreciated, by us and others, plants in
the garden/patio area are the peppers we grow in containers. The
foliage and the fruit are gorgeous. One of everyone's favorites this
year were the tobascos, with their bright upright fruit. Golden
Marconis are a tall pepper, nearly five feet, with eight inch oblong
golden fruit, heavily laden and great raw, fried, roasted, grilled.
The Ruffled Pimientos are a beautiful fruit that turns from glossy dark
green, through shades of maroon, to a deep red.

There are so many edibles that are beautiful as ornamentals. Okra has
incredibly beautiful blooms, hibiscus-like. We planted Hill Country
Red this year, that has red tinged foliage and red stems, with red and
green striped fruit.

Thanks for the recomendations..... I have wild chile pequenos that a
neighbour picks and eats right off the bush. Not for me, thanks, but there
are some others I'd like to grow.

Check out these folks for heirlooms that look great and are great
tasting. I'm not shilling for them, I just buy from them every year.
Never a problem in many years of supporting ther efforts.

www.seedsavers.org

www.rareseeds.com

www.seedsofchange.com

All have great paper catalogs that are full of good info.

Thanks for the links. I knew of the Seeds of Change site, and must plan
on ordering some stuff from them.

On 10/11/07 8:36 PM, in article ,
"Charlie" Charlie wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:09:34 -0400, Cheryl Isaak
wrote:



I like to think of fall as the start of the year - always have. I love the
harvest and feeling of settling in for the long haul. Spring and summer
always go to quick.

Cheryl

I've been thinking about what you said, while cleaning up the garden
and beginning to prepare it for next spring. It required a bit of
effort to accomplish the mental change, but it does give me a new
perspective upon the circle of seasons....perhaps that of metamorphosis
or the time spent in the womb, beginning in the fall and then the
birth in the spring.

Thanks for the mental exercise and mindshift.

Charlie
Anytime Charlie - fall is for reflection and a good way to start the new
year. Spring, like hope, is far too fleeting.

Cheryl

On 10/12/07 8:19 PM, in article ,
"Ann" wrote:

Charlie expounded:

Ahh, c'mon, can't I just do the cliff's books routine and listen to a
few more podcasts???

You could, but you'd miss all the little meanderings he goes through.
Just when he gets almost stiflingly clinical he goes off on a jaunt
that leads to wonderful places )

Damn, why did I just get this feeling of being back in school and Mrs.
Richards standing over me in English class? ;-) BTW, she was my
neighbor and favorite teacher, feisty as hell and back in the days
before, not afraid to box your ear when necessary. She even gave me
hell in my, or her, own backyard when necessary.

Sounds like my kind of woman! A teacher who taught because she loved
it. Lucky you!
Wish my kids could get a few of those. Though, I do like my son's history
teacher. Lots of love for the subjects and for the kids.

C

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Oct 2007 02:05:43 -0500, "cat daddy"
wrote:


Yep, and because it's feed, there's no tax. Something else I like to
pick
up is dry molasses. That's mostly a feel good thing for me, although they
say it stimulates beneficial microorganisms. It has trace elements, but I
like the smell, especially when I play around making aerobic teas.......


Whoa! Aerobic teas... you didn't finish and just left me hangin'!

Yeah, well.......... didn't want to bring out the pro- or anti- zealots
particularly, and it was late. I tried, but deleted whatever else I was
going to say about it. Discussion of tea making makes the discussion of
composting methods pale in comparison.

what? I gotta research this myself?

This has opened up a whole new area of fun.

Does this link provide a good idea of what you are talking about?

http://www.westvalleyrose.org/roseinfo/alfalfatea.html

Yeah, that's the same as one of my links.

Here's another with a list of what's in alfalfa tea, although it's not
aerobic with an air bubbler, and will smell like a cow produced it.
http://www.nurserysite.com/clubs/peninsular/tea.html

They have recipes that add canned mackeral and all sorts of goodies.

Man, we have to be talkin' some seriously good odours!

Again, thanks.

Charlie