In article k.net,
says...

On 21 Jan 2004 15:22:38 GMT, Frank White wrote:


In article ,
says...

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:28:34 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

(snip)
CO in an open area is NEVER lethal. Do your homework and quit telling
falsehoods.

CO in an open area is also hard to control. How do you control the
concentration
enough to make sure it's effective? Must be magic.

You see, this is the problem I have with alanc's claim, here. I
send a lot of time around CO producers: They're called 'cars',
and I have walked beside them, driven in them, and been stuck
in traffic jams surrounded by dozens of them all running and
putting out CO. And aside from gagging over diesel fumes, or
being rocked back by the stink some of them produce when they
burn bad gas, I've never passed out or been unable to breathe.
Heck, I've worked in garages where the air was BLUE with exhaust;
and although it gave me a headache, it didn't incapacitate me.


Except that I was talking about an "exhaust" putting out pure CO
(woodgas) rather than almost pure C02 with traces of C0, which is what cars
and such do.

OK, I lack any knowledge of the woodgas process, so I'll defer
to your statement as to its capacities.

But the symptomology is wrong. You said the hunter had
trouble breathing; but that's not what carbon monoxide
poisoning does. CO has EARNED its name of 'The Silent
Killer'; there's no obvious physical tip off that it's
killing you. Not sight nor smell nor asphixyation.
YOu WILL get a headache, nausea, dizziness, and a sense
of mental dullness increasing the longer you're exposed
to the gas, or the heavier the concentration of gas:
At 800 ppm, for instance, the symptoms will start in
45 minutes and you'll be dead after 3 hours. At 1600
pps it starts in 20 minutes and you're dead 40 minutes
after that. At 6400 the pain starts in 2 minutes and
you fall down go boom die in 10-15.

This is why I've got CO monitors - plural - in my
house. This stuff is NOTHING to fool around with.

FW

On 23 Jan 2004 05:28:28 GMT, (Frank White) wrote:

(snip)
This is why I've got CO monitors - plural - in my
house. This stuff is NOTHING to fool around with.

Ah, but really stupid people like analc LOVE to show everybody else how smart
they are by doing things no SENSIBLE person would do. So if they fool around
with CO and all end up poisoning themselves, they'd get mentioned in the Darwin
Awards or maybe just a Stella Liebeck award.

RE/
At 800 ppm, for instance, the symptoms will start in
45 minutes and you'll be dead after 3 hours. At 1600
pps it starts in 20 minutes and you're dead 40 minutes
after that. At 6400 the pain starts in 2 minutes and
you fall down go boom die in 10-15.

This is why I've got CO monitors - plural - in my
house. This stuff is NOTHING to fool around with.

And, according to what I've heard, a nasty little add-on is that one's
hemogloben has a greater affinity for CO than it does for O2. Net result is
that once the stuff's bonded to enough hemogloben even if you get out to fresh
air or somebody drags you out you're still going to die because the O2 from the
fresh air can't get to the hemogloben.
--
PeteCresswell

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:32:04 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" wrote:

RE/
At 800 ppm, for instance, the symptoms will start in
45 minutes and you'll be dead after 3 hours. At 1600
pps it starts in 20 minutes and you're dead 40 minutes
after that. At 6400 the pain starts in 2 minutes and
you fall down go boom die in 10-15.

This is why I've got CO monitors - plural - in my
house. This stuff is NOTHING to fool around with.

And, according to what I've heard, a nasty little add-on is that one's
hemogloben has a greater affinity for CO than it does for O2. Net result is
that once the stuff's bonded to enough hemogloben even if you get out to fresh
air or somebody drags you out you're still going to die because the O2 from the
fresh air can't get to the hemogloben.

chuckle...while CO attaches to hemoglobin roughly 300 times as
strongly as O2 does, it has a half life in the body of about 15-18
hours...so as long as you are still breathing when the medics get to
you, high percentage oxygen therapy has a good chance of working. Some
folks claim that hyperbaric oxygen cuts the treatment time by half,
but most of the recoverable cases manage without hyperbarics.

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S), the so called 'rotten egg gas', is
substantially more toxic, almost as toxic as Hydrogen Cyanide
(HCN)...and despite the strong smell initially, then nose rapidly
adapts, and there is no further warning...

ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:27:03 -0600, charles krin
wrote:

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S), the so called 'rotten egg gas', is
substantially more toxic, almost as toxic as Hydrogen Cyanide
(HCN)...and despite the strong smell initially, then nose rapidly
adapts, and there is no further warning...

ck

Most folks don't ever get involved in the situations where one is
likely to encounter significant levels of hydrogen sulfide.

One place, of several, where one may routinely encounter it is in
ship's holds. And I'm an old retired sailor, so learned about the
stuff.

Real sneaky stuff, besides being dangerous. One can detect the odor
at about .03 ppm with the human nose.

At about 10 ppm of hydrogen sulfide your nose loses it's sense of
smell in as little as 3 minutes. So one might think it was just a
little passing gust of the gas and it's now gone. But that may not be
true.

At about 30 ppm, the human nose loses it's sense of smell almost
immediately. Yah just detect the odor, then it's gone. Because now
yah can't smell anything.

Guy in the previous post mentioned 800 ppm of CO as being hazardous if
you're exposed to it long enough.

With hydrogen sulfide, at 800 ppm, you're going nowhere. Not
escaping. You hit the deck abruptly and promptly. Immediate
unconciousness.

Bob

***Who once had the unpleasant chore of assisting in the recovery of 3
bodies done in my hydrogen sulfide.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:53:43 -0600, Bob G wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:27:03 -0600, charles krin
wrote:

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S), the so called 'rotten egg gas', is
substantially more toxic, almost as toxic as Hydrogen Cyanide
(HCN)...and despite the strong smell initially, then nose rapidly
adapts, and there is no further warning...

ck

Most folks don't ever get involved in the situations where one is
likely to encounter significant levels of hydrogen sulfide.

80 ppm is not hard to find in sanitary sewers...or underground trunks
in close proximity to sanitary sewers...


One place, of several, where one may routinely encounter it is in
ship's holds. And I'm an old retired sailor, so learned about the
stuff.

Real sneaky stuff, besides being dangerous. One can detect the odor
at about .03 ppm with the human nose.

At about 10 ppm of hydrogen sulfide your nose loses it's sense of
smell in as little as 3 minutes. So one might think it was just a
little passing gust of the gas and it's now gone. But that may not be
true.

At about 30 ppm, the human nose loses it's sense of smell almost
immediately. Yah just detect the odor, then it's gone. Because now
yah can't smell anything.

Guy in the previous post mentioned 800 ppm of CO as being hazardous if
you're exposed to it long enough.

With hydrogen sulfide, at 800 ppm, you're going nowhere. Not
escaping. You hit the deck abruptly and promptly. Immediate
unconciousness.

yep...and within 4 minutes or less of becoming unconscious, you are
dead...


Bob

***Who once had the unpleasant chore of assisting in the recovery of 3
bodies done in my hydrogen sulfide.


which is the reason for body harnesses and life lines...as well as
SCBA...among other things, I believe that H2S is one of the nasties
that eat many protective mask filters up quickly...

ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:27:03 -0600, charles krin wrote:


On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:32:04 GMT, "(Pete Cresswell)" wrote:

RE/
At 800 ppm, for instance, the symptoms will start in
45 minutes and you'll be dead after 3 hours. At 1600
pps it starts in 20 minutes and you're dead 40 minutes
after that. At 6400 the pain starts in 2 minutes and
you fall down go boom die in 10-15.

This is why I've got CO monitors - plural - in my
house. This stuff is NOTHING to fool around with.

And, according to what I've heard, a nasty little add-on is that one's
hemogloben has a greater affinity for CO than it does for O2. Net result is
that once the stuff's bonded to enough hemogloben even if you get out to fresh
air or somebody drags you out you're still going to die because the O2 from the
fresh air can't get to the hemogloben.

chuckle...while CO attaches to hemoglobin roughly 300 times as
strongly as O2 does, it has a half life in the body of about 15-18
hours...so as long as you are still breathing when the medics get to
you, high percentage oxygen therapy has a good chance of working. Some
folks claim that hyperbaric oxygen cuts the treatment time by half,
but most of the recoverable cases manage without hyperbarics.

Hydrogen sulfide (H2S), the so called 'rotten egg gas', is
substantially more toxic, almost as toxic as Hydrogen Cyanide
(HCN)...and despite the strong smell initially, then nose rapidly
adapts, and there is no further warning...


Didn't know that about H2S. Never used it.

(Never will, now.)

A *very* effective 'stink bomb' is a mild butyric acid solution.

Smells like vomit (which is why it is know as "stench") and being a
mild organic acid, bonds to just about anything.

You can render clothes and packs un-wearable, and tents and buildings
and vehicles un-usable, for very long periods, if not forever.

A guerilla team in the bush that ran afoul of stench booby-trap would be in
serious trouble.

They could be smelled for a long ways and would upset the wildlife
all around them and be incredibly miserable, IF they could even bear
to wear their clothes and packs. I don't think they could. That stuff
is upchuck city. I think they'd have to return to get re-supplied, and
would be lucky to make it if they were very far into enemy territory.

There's something very primal about scents. It's the only sense we have
that is connected directly to the brain.

AC

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:41:28 -0600, charles krin
wrote:


With hydrogen sulfide, at 800 ppm, you're going nowhere. Not
escaping. You hit the deck abruptly and promptly. Immediate
unconciousness.

yep...and within 4 minutes or less of becoming unconscious, you are
dead...


Bob

***Who once had the unpleasant chore of assisting in the recovery of 3
bodies done in my hydrogen sulfide.


which is the reason for body harnesses and life lines...as well as
SCBA...among other things, I believe that H2S is one of the nasties
that eat many protective mask filters up quickly...

ck

There is LOTS of H2S here in the oil fields. Pumpers (oil lease
caretakers) are issued electronic H2S detectors and those who
occasionally work in those areas are issued a litmus paper sort of
thingy that has a roll of the test paper inside and a small open
window. If it changes color..bail. At the end of the shift, one
simply pulls out a half inch of paper, exposing a new section.

Some nasty shit. Ive had my snozz go dead in it, simply driving
through a low spot on my way to my hunting shooting grounds.

It of course is a by product of some oil wells, in this particular oil
area there are various formations rich in H2S.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:41:28 -0600, charles krin
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:53:43 -0600, Bob G wrote:


snipped

With hydrogen sulfide, at 800 ppm, you're going nowhere. Not
escaping. You hit the deck abruptly and promptly. Immediate
unconciousness.

yep...and within 4 minutes or less of becoming unconscious, you are
dead...

I recall that smell when driving around petroleum plants south
of Houston. Is there a connection with these plants?



Bob

***Who once had the unpleasant chore of assisting in the recovery of 3
bodies done in my hydrogen sulfide.


which is the reason for body harnesses and life lines...as well as
SCBA...among other things, I believe that H2S is one of the nasties
that eat many protective mask filters up quickly...

ck

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:03:18 -0700, Nick Danger wrote:


Ross wrote:
...
I asked in an earlier post which disaster was under discussion here,
because there are a few possibilities.

1. Global warming-which is happening now.

Whether or not this is caused by humans (or even happening)
is not certain. The earth has seen global climate change
many times in the past that had nothing to do with man.

2. Nuclear winter which could happen if the wrong people press
the button, or terrorists somehow- hopefully not for many years.

Now there's an idea. Whether or not man is causing "global
warming", man could correct it. Man could also probably fix
the "nuclear winter" by vaporizing an appropriate volume
of ocean with nukes.


That's just brilliant.


AC

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:30:59 GMT, Ross wrote:




Good disasters to ya,
VLJ
--
Take only pictures, leave only bullet holes ...


I asked in an earlier post which disaster was under discussion here, because
there are a few possibilities.

1. Global warming-which is happening now.

2. Nuclear winter which could happen if the wrong people press the button,
or terrorists somehow- hopefully not for many years.

3. Fossil fuels used up. Oil production is expected to peak in about 10
years, which will bring prices up. No big deal, but what is next?
In 250 years humans will use up all the fossil fuels that took 5 billion
years to create. I don't remember god telling us we could do that?

4. Overpopulation and diminishing food supply- But hopefully this can be
managed somehow.

So is this all loony? Maybe, but it is all real and we hope that "THEY"
whoever they are, will solve these problems. I am 43 so I think I will make
it off the planet in time, but what about the little tikes of today and
tomorrow?

Overall, a sustainable way of life sounds better to me than trying to solve
these problems with technology.


Right on!

The abuse and over-indulgence in technology is a big part of what's CAUSING
our problems...

More isn't going to do anything but make it worse.

Does create jobs and profits for pension funds, though...

Recycling is a perfect example of the folly of most technological 'solutions'.

It actually does more harm to the environment than throwing things in a

landfill and making new stuff.

That's why recycled paper costs more than regular paper, even with subsidies.

AC

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:52:57 -0600, charles krin wrote:


On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:50:14 GMT, Me wrote:

In article ,
Gunner wrote:

Sorry Bubba, but like firearms, nuclear weapons and oral sex, the
genie is out of the bottle. Even after a Collapse..the Net will be one
of the first things to become reimplimented. In one fashion or
another.

If you only had a clue as to what you were talking about you would be
classed a bit higher than "Moroon". In an American Collapse Senerio,
the Internet would far down the list of things rebuilt.

chuckle...you do realize that the Internet started out as a hardened,
multiple routing system *designed* to be fault tolerant to a nuclear
war? And was designed to have substantial back up power systems?

and that it has only gotten more robust over the years, now that it no
longer depends on copper wire and microwave links?


That's funny. I remember the Internet in the Pacific Northwest being down
for a half a day a while back because some farmer got careless with a backhoe.

It is still dependent on microwave links and fiber-optic cables are more
vulnerable than copper ones.

A few teams of saboteurs could bring down the Internet right now, and never
be caught.

They'd just have to sever T1 lines over and over again, and it isn't possible
to patrol the hundreds of thousands of miles of them...


AC

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 07:35:30 GMT, strabo wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:41:28 -0600, charles krin
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:53:43 -0600, Bob G wrote:


snipped

With hydrogen sulfide, at 800 ppm, you're going nowhere. Not
escaping. You hit the deck abruptly and promptly. Immediate
unconciousness.

yep...and within 4 minutes or less of becoming unconscious, you are
dead...

I recall that smell when driving around petroleum plants south
of Houston. Is there a connection with these plants?

It is associated with many types of oil...one clue there is that much
of the original Texas classifications was "Light, Sweet Crude"...where
there wasn't much of sulfur in the oil...

So, smelling Sulfides around a petroleum plant (or a paper mill for
that matter, where sulfites are used for bleaching), is not unusual.

And as far as the oil fields go, there is an old John Wayne movie,
"The Hellfighters"...a mildly fictionalized version of Red Adair's
life...where Red, Boots and Coots were actual consultants on the
set...they had one scene in Malaysia where the well out of control was
a H2S well...

ck
--
country doc in louisiana
(no fancy sayings right now)

RE/
You can render clothes and packs un-wearable, and tents and buildings
and vehicles un-usable, for very long periods, if not forever.

A guerilla team in the bush that ran afoul of stench booby-trap would be in
serious trouble.

Our high school science teacher, bless his heart, used to punish us by uncorking
a bottle of the stuff. After a few of those, I think he had the best-behaved
classes in the school
--
PeteCresswell

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:56:34 GMT, (Pete Cresswell) wrote:


RE/
You can render clothes and packs un-wearable, and tents and buildings
and vehicles un-usable, for very long periods, if not forever.

A guerilla team in the bush that ran afoul of stench booby-trap would be in
serious trouble.

Our high school science teacher, bless his heart, used to punish us by uncorking
a bottle of the stuff. After a few of those, I think he had the best-behaved
classes in the school
--
PeteCresswell

No kidding! That would have had all of us teen-age "toughs" goose-stepping
in no time.

:-)


AC