When you can't debate with facts on your side, people always turn to
insults. That is what you are doing.

Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.


It's no different than teaching evolution. That's what I was taught,
although I don't believe that my ancestors were monkeys.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.


I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.



Touché. Especially when the bullshit comes from a book written by HUMANS.

Well, to each his own! I'll stick with my belief system and you stick
with yours.

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


Doug Kanter wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...

You haven't answered the question, 'Why should the government pay
for
it?'

For the same reason the government pays for other medical
procedures,
like
hip replacements, or medication for childrens' ear infections.
However,
I'll
add this: The same government should also pay for health education
which
would help minimize some health disorders, and said education should
be
completely factual & not influenced by church committees.

So you believe in taking from one group to give to another, even to
the
point of taking innocent lives.

Two separate issues. "taking from one group...." refers to who should
pay
for ALL medical procedures, including setting broken bones, eye exams
and
abortions. Because of the economic structure of this country, there will
ALWAYS be people who cannot afford health insurance, so you'd better get
used to the idea unless you have a better solution. What do you suppose
a
hotel room would cost if the maids were paid $35,000.00 per year? How
about
the lower paid kitchen staff in restaurants? Are you ready for an $11.00
hamburger at your typical diner? How about a 3 lb bag of carrots for
$8.00?
As long as menial work needs to be done, the government will have to pay
for
health insurance for millions of people.

There are not as many uninsured people as you believe.


Really? How many do YOU think there are? A ballpark guess will suffice. And,
what's the difference anyway?

The vast majority of people without insurance are either in between jobs
or don't work at all.


If there are 1000 in this entire country, they
deserve to receive assistance, especially if they're working their tails off
like the rest of us and still unable to make ends meet.


Does someone who doesn't work and is able really DESERVE to take money
from the rest of us for anything! I'm not talking about those that
really can't work, but most welfare recipients are very able to work.

"Taking innocent lives" is not connected with the financial issue. You
either accept government supported health care IN GENERAL, or you don't.

I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for injuries incurred when morons don't
wear eye protection while using power tools. But, I accept it because it's
not the government's place to judge how people ended up the way they are.

It's not the same thing at all.


My ex-wife's Unitarian church ran a series of sex ed classes which
were
very
explicit. They honored parents' wishes through a real high tech
scheme
which
involved typing and printing things on paper - quite revolutionary.
All
parents were given VERY detailed copies of each week's lesson plan
so
they
could keep their kids out of certain classes if they wished to do
so.
Why
couldn't public schools do this, rather than have the typical
all-or-nothing
wars which seem to be the hobby of the fundamentalists?


Well, when I grew up, parents taught their children about sex. I
think
that is where it should be taught today too. Let schools teach real
subjects.

SOME parents teach their kids about sex. Of that group, some are idiots
and
teach their kids things which are simply incorrect. Not the morals, but
the
scientific facts. That's how you end up with unwanted pregnancies. You
can't
scream about abortion *and* try to stamp out information which will help
lower the abortion rate. Sorry. It's immature to think that way.

No, it's not immature to thing that way. Sex education at school seems
to encourage sexual activity, not just educate. It makes it much harder
for girl's to so 'no' to a guy today.

OK. That last paragraph is precious. Could you please provide at least two
sources (web links, scientific journals) for that ridiculous information,
preferably sources NOT connected with any religious organization?

By the way, some say I attribute too much to linguistic skills, but your

inclusion of an apostrophe in "girl's" reveals a lot about you.


Yep, when you have no arguments then pick out an error in typing or
spelling or putting an apostrophe in the wrong place. Insults replace
the need to have valid arguments.

I have lived and I have grandchildren and friends with grandchildren, so
I do know what is going on. Experience counts you know.

remove munged wrote:

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:17:12 -0400, Sheila
wrote:



dykerider wrote:

"Helen Crames" wrote in message
newsgBUc.276159$%_6.32608@attbi_s01...

Isn't abortion much more expensive than birth control?

Helen

Not if the government pays for it.

Why should the government pay for it?

Sheila
Pay now or pay later, lots cheaper to abort than try to educate and
socialize an idjet

So, it's OK to abort a child?

In article ,
Vox Humana wrote:


The religious right spends the vast majority of its time address issues of
sex. Sex education, gay issues, abortion, and so on. They are
anti-feminist because of sexual issues. Sadly, they have defined themselves
as one-dimensional.


No. Bigot.

billo

In article , Sheila
wrote:

Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.


It's no different than teaching evolution. That's what I was taught,
although I don't believe that my ancestors were monkeys.

Nor does anything about Evolution suppose that your ancestors were
monkeys, so clearly you weren't educated on this topic even at even the
simplest entry-level!

Now Faith can be a poetic thing, but the desire of the Faithful to remain
ignorant of science, deny science, misrepresent science, & attempt to stop
the teaching of science, suggests that their own faith is a very tiny
thing.

Honest to gosh FAITH is an end in itself that requires no proofs -- the
moment you require proof, or deplore proof to the contrary for some
baseless religious sentiment, you have shown a tepid faith or a lack of
faith.

It takes no faith to believe in scientific ideas of Evolution or the age
of the earth or any number of things that tepidly faithful fundamentalists
deplore. Scientific method is capable of testing a premise & improving on
the testing methods as knowledge increases. Physics for instance isn't an
alternative theory to "God did it," its just a practical method of
defining what is real. By comparison there is no evidence that God exists
& in all reasonable likelihood there never can be evidence. But Faith
requires no evidence or it wouldn't be Faith.

If you ever do acquire a solid Faith, you'll discover that science &
practicality & reality are not rivals of Faith, ook ook!

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.


I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.



Touché. Especially when the bullshit comes from a book written by HUMANS.

Which bullshit book do you have in mind? The Vedas & Upanishads? The
Koran? Rebi Kordova's The Palm Tree of Deborah? The Talmud? The Descent of
Inanna? Oh right, the Bible. It's a FASCINATING compendium, one of the
greatest literary works of all time, & only as bullshitty as the other of
the top-ten works of literature since literacy began. I mean criminy, do
you know the story of why Tamar posed as a harlot to get knocked up by her
father-in-law, at risk of being stoned to death; & why this made her more
righteous than Judah? It's just one of hundreds of deeply profound
beautiful & strange tales with psychological complexity & heroism. All our
favorite genres are in there somewhere. Humanity is a stinking eruption on
the face of the planet that destroys everything in its path, & if ANYthing
justifies our appalling existance, it is this very capacity to create such
art & poetry that is Torah.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.


It's no different than teaching evolution. That's what I was taught,
although I don't believe that my ancestors were monkeys.

You may have been taught evolution, but apparently you didn't learn
anything.

In article , Sheila
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

OK. That last paragraph is precious. Could you please provide at least two
sources (web links, scientific journals) for that ridiculous information,
preferably sources NOT connected with any religious organization?

By the way, some say I attribute too much to linguistic skills, but your

inclusion of an apostrophe in "girl's" reveals a lot about you.


Yep, when you have no arguments then pick out an error in typing or
spelling or putting an apostrophe in the wrong place. Insults replace
the need to have valid arguments.

Conversely, when you have no basis for silly assertions, whining &
whinging about feeling insulted replaces debate, even invalid debate.

I have lived and I have grandchildren and friends with grandchildren, so
I do know what is going on. Experience counts you know.

If you had valid arguments, you could have focused more on the request for
evidence of an assertion that on the surface appeared assinine &
incorrect. If you had any evidence for your amazingly silly assertions,
you would've provided it, instead of saying you're old & you just know.

Your assertion was that sex education "encourage sexual activity" and
"makes it harder for girl's [sic] to say 'no' to a guy."

I echo Doug's request: where do you get this crap? Out of your ass?
Because here is the truth, according to the US Teenage Pregnancy
Statistics Special Report, & the "Survey of Sex Education Provision in
Secondary Schools" from the organization AVERT which is struggling to
lower the incidence of HIV & AIDS in teenage childrne.

Less than half the schools in America have adequate sex education. The
better the sex education program, the lower the teenage pregnancy rate.
Less sex education, more teenage pregnancy. WITH sex education there is a
loweredincidence of HIV and AIDS. Without adequate sex education fewer
girls learn "relationship negotiation skills" which arm them with a far
BETTER chance of saying "no," avoiding date-rape, & getting home without a
venereal disease.

Deal with this: Those who oppose adequate sex education in the schools
destroy the lives of children whose lives didn't need to be destroyed. Our
current president pandering to the religious right & perhaps his own idea
of God has sided with those who are fighting AGAINST adequate sex
education, without regard for what would actually protect children. So he
too is a danger to children.

And yes, some people will want to just insult you for deploring what
protects children best, quite justifiably insulted too. But be glad about
it because it gives you a chance to whine & whing that you were insulted,
rather than learning & growing sufficiently that you will no longer be
promoting mistruths & misguided notions that endanger even your own
vaunted grandchildren.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"paghat" wrote in message
news
In article , Sheila
wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

OK. That last paragraph is precious. Could you please provide at least
two
sources (web links, scientific journals) for that ridiculous
information,
preferably sources NOT connected with any religious organization?

By the way, some say I attribute too much to linguistic skills, but
your

inclusion of an apostrophe in "girl's" reveals a lot about you.


Yep, when you have no arguments then pick out an error in typing or
spelling or putting an apostrophe in the wrong place. Insults replace
the need to have valid arguments.

Conversely, when you have no basis for silly assertions, whining &
whinging about feeling insulted replaces debate, even invalid debate.

I have lived and I have grandchildren and friends with grandchildren, so
I do know what is going on. Experience counts you know.

If you had valid arguments, you could have focused more on the request for
evidence of an assertion that on the surface appeared assinine &
incorrect. If you had any evidence for your amazingly silly assertions,
you would've provided it, instead of saying you're old & you just know.

Your assertion was that sex education "encourage sexual activity" and
"makes it harder for girl's [sic] to say 'no' to a guy."

I echo Doug's request: where do you get this crap? Out of your ass?
Because here is the truth, according to the US Teenage Pregnancy
Statistics Special Report, & the "Survey of Sex Education Provision in
Secondary Schools" from the organization AVERT which is struggling to
lower the incidence of HIV & AIDS in teenage childrne.

Less than half the schools in America have adequate sex education. The
better the sex education program, the lower the teenage pregnancy rate.
Less sex education, more teenage pregnancy. WITH sex education there is a
loweredincidence of HIV and AIDS. Without adequate sex education fewer
girls learn "relationship negotiation skills" which arm them with a far
BETTER chance of saying "no," avoiding date-rape, & getting home without a
venereal disease.

Deal with this: Those who oppose adequate sex education in the schools
destroy the lives of children whose lives didn't need to be destroyed. Our
current president pandering to the religious right & perhaps his own idea
of God has sided with those who are fighting AGAINST adequate sex
education, without regard for what would actually protect children. So he
too is a danger to children.

And yes, some people will want to just insult you for deploring what
protects children best, quite justifiably insulted too. But be glad about
it because it gives you a chance to whine & whing that you were insulted,
rather than learning & growing sufficiently that you will no longer be
promoting mistruths & misguided notions that endanger even your own
vaunted grandchildren.

In addition to what you said, I would like to point out how stupid the
assertion is that it is the female's responsibility to say "no" or that she
should want to say "no." Why would sex education only impact the behavior
of the female, causing her to lose the ability to resist the mating call of
the male? I think that placing blame on females is symptomatic of the
religious rights attitudes towards women.

paghat wrote:

Doug Kanter wrote:

"Vox Humana" wrote in message
...

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.


I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.



Touché. Especially when the bullshit comes from a book written by HUMANS.

Which bullshit book do you have in mind? The Vedas & Upanishads? The
Koran? Rebi Kordova's The Palm Tree of Deborah? The Talmud? The Descent of
Inanna? Oh right, the Bible. It's a FASCINATING compendium, one of the
greatest literary works of all time, & only as bullshitty as the other of
the top-ten works of literature since literacy began. I mean criminy, do
you know the story of why Tamar posed as a harlot to get knocked up by her
father-in-law, at risk of being stoned to death; & why this made her more
righteous than Judah? It's just one of hundreds of deeply profound
beautiful & strange tales with psychological complexity & heroism. All our
favorite genres are in there somewhere. Humanity is a stinking eruption on
the face of the planet that destroys everything in its path, & if ANYthing
justifies our appalling existance, it is this very capacity to create such
art & poetry that is Torah.

-paghat the ratgirl

I think you are answering Doug Kanter, not me, as I haven't called
anything 'bullshit'.

paghat wrote:

In article , Sheila
wrote:

Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.


It's no different than teaching evolution. That's what I was taught,
although I don't believe that my ancestors were monkeys.


Well, some were taught one thing and some people were taught others.



Nor does anything about Evolution suppose that your ancestors were
monkeys, so clearly you weren't educated on this topic even at even the
simplest entry-level!

Now Faith can be a poetic thing, but the desire of the Faithful to remain
ignorant of science, deny science, misrepresent science, & attempt to stop
the teaching of science, suggests that their own faith is a very tiny
thing.


I also believe in science do not deny, misrepresent or attempt to stop
the teaching of science. As a matter of fact I think teaching science
is a good thing. I just don't happen to believe in evolution.

Honest to gosh FAITH is an end in itself that requires no proofs -- the
moment you require proof, or deplore proof to the contrary for some
baseless religious sentiment, you have shown a tepid faith or a lack of
faith.

It takes no faith to believe in scientific ideas of Evolution or the age
of the earth or any number of things that tepidly faithful fundamentalists
deplore. Scientific method is capable of testing a premise & improving on
the testing methods as knowledge increases. Physics for instance isn't an
alternative theory to "God did it," its just a practical method of
defining what is real. By comparison there is no evidence that God exists
& in all reasonable likelihood there never can be evidence. But Faith
requires no evidence or it wouldn't be Faith.

If you ever do acquire a solid Faith, you'll discover that science &
practicality & reality are not rivals of Faith, ook ook!


Never did I say that science and practicality and reality are rivals of
Faith. I'm a very practical person and I believe in reality, also in
action and reaction. Where did you ever get the idea that I didn't?



-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.


It's no different than teaching evolution. That's what I was taught,
although I don't believe that my ancestors were monkeys.

You may have been taught evolution, but apparently you didn't learn
anything.

Just resort to insults when you can't debate!

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


Vox Humana wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
...


I don't accept the government paying for abortions on demand.

I don't accept the government paying for superstition and bull shit
like
"Creationism" being taught in public schools.


It's no different than teaching evolution. That's what I was taught,
although I don't believe that my ancestors were monkeys.

You may have been taught evolution, but apparently you didn't learn
anything.

Just resort to insults when you can't debate!

It is an observation. If you learned anything about evolution you wouldn't
have made that ignorant statement about moneys. That statement is right out
of the fundamentalist talking points memo. Furthermore, you haven't engaged
in debate. You make fantastic claims about sex education and when asked for
sources to support you assertions, you totally ignore the request, choosing
instead to feign some misunderstand of who the request is directed toward.
You also avoid debate by snipping all relevant information and then posting
some message that appears to be selected at random, having no context and
which is completely unresponsive. So don't even try to lecture me on debate
until you come to terms with your intellectual dishonesty.