In article .com,
cliff_the_gardener writes
Hello Janet
Sorry fro the delay - had a day out at Brogale Sunday - just getting
over it now.
The best book I can recommend for grafting is an oldy but goody
The Grafters Handbook, R J Garner ISBN 0304321729 I paid £6 for my
ex libary copy (so thanks go to Dudley Libary) There are pictures in
there.
I am not familiar with pictures on the net, but googled this link:-
http://www.powen.freeserve.co.uk/adv...topworking.htm


Thanks Clifford. Would Brogdale know the best apple types for an area?
Bernwode have tons of apples varieties but it would seem silly just to
grow one because it's an old variety without first eliminating those
that wouldn't be happy in flint and clay plus alkaline conditions.


.
As for soil conditions etc, I would repeat my recomendation for Martin
Crawfod's book Directory of Apple Cultivars available from
www.agroforestry.co.uk


Hmmm 25 pounds is a bit steep perhaps I'll order it via the library
first? Thanks you for the recommendation though it will help enormously.



.
In terms of mixing cultivars on a tree it can be done - sold as family
trees. Personally I am not a fan because many of the cultivars mixed
are picked bucause the public know the names, rather than matching the
vigour of the plant. My preference is to grow as cordons, as the trees
can be planted at a between plant 75cm x 3m rows


How much fruit would one tree hold then?
Could I grow say two cordons to complement a proper tree? We were
thinking of growing a fairly large tree where we had to cut down the red
oak this year. We could take up to 18 foot. We DO eat a lot of apples,
especially if they are Worcester's or russets. We have a Bramley further
down the garden and that seems okay, and a John Malus on the other side
of the lawn.


Do these books give you 'similar' apples in a group, e.g. russet like or
Worcester like? Perhaps a visit to an Apple tasting day would be best,
before choosing the variety.

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

K wrote:
I wonder to what extent fireblight is a problem with apples in the UK. I
ask since hawthorn is one of our most widely used hedging plants,
including in the fruit growing areas of Kent and Worcestershire.

Hence my previous questions about wind direction, rain, basically the
general position of the apple trees. However, in my case, one of my
hawthorns's branches almost touches the top of the apple tree ...

I'm still looking into it - takes a life time to know everything me
think ;o) I've decided also, with the help of a couple of friends, one
a tree surgeon, to move the apple tree to the lotty. We're falling an
elder which has outgrown it's position - self seeded there too we
suspect. It cast a huge shadow over a couple of plots - the apple tree
will go there. I'm glad of the outcome.

Janet Tweedy writes
Could I grow say two cordons to complement a proper tree?

Yes. There's no difference apart from the flowering time. Make sure they
are all in the same flowering group

IIRC Bramley is the one that doesn't provide viable pollen, so you need
a pollinator for it (which you presumably have in the area if it's
already fruiting) and a pollinator for the pollinator - ie don't rely on
the bramley to pollinate your new trees. But check first, because I may
be misremembering!

We were thinking of growing a fairly large tree where we had to cut
down the red oak this year. We could take up to 18 foot. We DO eat a
lot of apples, especially if they are Worcester's

Remember Worcesters don't keep for very long (though they are wonderful
if allowed to ripen on the tree. You might want to complement it with a
couple of varieties which will keep till autumn or spring.

I would consider having the tree as a keeping variety (you have longer
to eat the heavier crop), but I don't know how Worcester does as a
cordon.

Even a small tree can give 70lb of fruit, and our mature tree in
sevenoaks managed 400lb in the year of the hurricane, upon which it blew
over, depositing the entire 400lb on the ground.
--
Kay

Hi Jannet
Brogdale do a design service for anything from 10 trees to 100 - you
may recall they did Sarah Raven's Orchard on the special Gardener's
world.
Your soil is challenging for fruit trees, anything more than 7.5 tends
to make the tree a little chlorotic. There are a few cultivars that
prefer alkaline soils -Branack Orange, Red Charles Ross and Saint
Everard spring to mind.

I like Martin Crawfod's book Directory of Apple Cultivars, it may cost
£25 but I've got my moneys worth from it. If you can get it from the
library then yo can see it for yourself.

Fruit yield is dependant on how you train the tree - and what rootstock
it is on. Commercially, on an M9 bush tree (5-6ft tall) they expect
to get 55 apples from the tree. The trees would be spaced
The current commercial trend is towards "super spindle" trees which are
2m trees that are permantly steakes or against a cane on a post and
wire system. The trees are spaced 1m between trees and 3m between
rows. These trees come into fruit early - two years after planting
yileding 4lbs going to 20lbs in year 6. Now for a glorified stick that
is a high yield.
Whilst a mature standard tree will yield over 300lbs of fruit, it is
difficult to manage and do you want that weight of just one variety -
when there is a choice of trees that can yield fruit seaonally.

Bramley is a triploid (three sets of chromosomes) so meeds two
cultivars to pollinate it - as I think you know - your idea of having
cordons is practicable.

I do knot know of a book that groups apples by type. As for the apple
tasting yes get yourself off go to one!!
http://www.commonground.org.uk/appleday/a-events.html

If I can help let me know

Clifford
Bawtry, Doncaster, South Yorkshire

cliff_the_gardener wrote:
I do knot know of a book that groups apples by type. As for the apple
tasting yes get yourself off go to one!!
http://www.commonground.org.uk/appleday/a-events.html

hehehe ... Did you get the book, England in Particular? Got it in St
Ives. Can't put it down and fighting over it with my husband every
night ...

Can you perhaps recommend a cooking apple? One that doesn't need too
much refineries when cooking - something that stand grand and sweet,
firm and flavoursome just by itself? A friend wants one - if only I had
the space .... Thank you.

Hi Janet

Have had fun trying to get this one out - third time lucky I hope!

Brogdale do offer an orchard design service - anything from 10 to 100
trees. You may recall Sarah Raven had her mixed orchard designed by
them on the Gardener's World Fruit special. I have no idea of cost but
they will be able to supply the trees.

When it comes to growing fruit in a limited space I do believe you need
to make the choice between wanting to grow a heritage variety because
it is a heritage variety ( and may suffer from a selection of ailments)
through to the more modern offerings. In my book I want taste and
reliability. I don't want a fest one year and nothing the next.
Equally I don't want to be spraying for a host of problems either. So
I spend my time going through the books, which is why I have affection
for Martin Crawford's book Directory of Apple Cultivars. That can lead
to a choice of older cultivars or to more recent introductions.

My concern in drawing up a plan for your garden would be the soil.
From what I have read, when the pH is above 7.5 the trees tend to
suffer lime-induced chlorosis. There are a few that prefer alkaline
conditions - Barnack Orange, Barnack Sport and Red Charles Ross spring
to mind.

If you can get Martin Crawford's book from the library first, then do
so - I feel it has been worth every penny.

Fruit yield is a science in itself; commercially you can imagine they
cannot cope with a tree that is biennial or with inconsistent yields.
The majority of commercial orchards these days are planted on m9
rootstocks which produces a tree just over 6ft tall. Here they target
55 apples per tree. As with most commercial practices everything is
geared to lower labour inputs to reduce cost. The latest trend is to
grow super spindles; these are planted as 2 year old trees, around 2m
tall and planted against a cane on a post and wire system. The come
into fruit two years later - yielding 3lbs and in year 6 yield 20lbs
which is comparable with an M9 bush tree except 1 year earlier. They
are spaced 1.3 x 3m. It is something that can be replicated at home
- ok not as aesthetic as a mature standard tree but...

Fun over

A tree grown as a bush, on a M26 rootstock, would yield a tree 8 -12 ft
tall producing from 60 - 100lbs of fruit. As your soil is not ideal
- in that it is alkaline, this could affect the yield - by as much
as half!

As for your thought on growing cordons - that is an excellent ideal.

For grouping fruit by characteristics - well in the main text no.
There are a couple of books, that are hard to get hold of, which serve
as keys to apple identification. One of them Apples - A guide to the
Identification of International Varieties, John Bultitude ISBN
0333385365. Bultitude was the UK expert in apples until his death in
1979; he devised a system of classification to aid apple
identification. This involved grouping the apples into eight, Group
VI: Mainly red (Worcester type) mainly dessert apples, and group VIII
skin mainly russet (Egremont Russet type) dessert apples. In the table
he lists the shape of fruit and its season. The book itself is in
alphabetical order.

Hope this helps

If I can assist feel free to holla

Clifford
Bawtry, Doncaster, South Yorkshire

La Puce
I have not got the book, England in Particular? will have to keep an
eye out for it, by the sounds of it.

Most true cookers cook to a puree or froth. As for a cooking apple that
cooks sweet and holds it shape on cooking. Would probalbly go for
something like Charles Ross. A desert that cooks orange and holds
shape - when young! You could always go American and use a ripe Golden
Delicious as a cooker. (Waiting for uproar)
Reading through my books I found Beety Geeson, Pladei, Sleeping Beauty,
which you would have to get from Brogdale on special order.

Clifford
Bawtry, Doncaster, South Yorkshire.

oooh. didn't think this had worked!
Clifford

cliff_the_gardener wrote:

Most true cookers cook to a puree or froth. As for a cooking apple that
cooks sweet and holds it shape on cooking. Would probalbly go for
something like Charles Ross. A desert that cooks orange and holds
shape - when young! You could always go American and use a ripe Golden
Delicious as a cooker. (Waiting for uproar)
Reading through my books I found Beety Geeson, Pladei, Sleeping Beauty,
which you would have to get from Brogdale on special order.

Thank you. I'll let you know what she goes for - I'm the first one in
line to get some of the first crop ;o)

The message . com
from "cliff_the_gardener" contains
these words:


When it comes to growing fruit in a limited space I do believe you need
to make the choice between wanting to grow a heritage variety because
it is a heritage variety ( and may suffer from a selection of ailments)
through to the more modern offerings. In my book I want taste and
reliability. I don't want a fest one year and nothing the next.
Equally I don't want to be spraying for a host of problems either. So
I spend my time going through the books, which is why I have affection
for Martin Crawford's book Directory of Apple Cultivars. That can lead
to a choice of older cultivars or to more recent introductions.


For grouping fruit by characteristics - well in the main text no.
There are a couple of books, that are hard to get hold of, which serve
as keys to apple identification. One of them Apples - A guide to the
Identification of International Varieties, John Bultitude ISBN
0333385365. Bultitude was the UK expert in apples until his death in
1979; he devised a system of classification to aid apple
identification. This involved grouping the apples into eight, Group
VI: Mainly red (Worcester type) mainly dessert apples, and group VIII
skin mainly russet (Egremont Russet type) dessert apples. In the table
he lists the shape of fruit and its season. The book itself is in
alphabetical order.

'Apples: a Field Guide' by Michael Clark deals with apples in these
groups. It is readily available. It was published in 2003.
Janet G

cliff_the_gardener wrote:

Bramley is a triploid (three sets of chromosomes) so meeds two
cultivars to pollinate it....

Errr... only needs one to pollinate IT, but is sterile and hence cannot
reciprocate, so there needs to be another tree around to ensure
the Bramley's pollinator gets pollinated.

cliff_the_gardener wrote:

Most true cookers cook to a puree or froth. As for a cooking apple that
cooks sweet and holds it shape on cooking. Would probalbly go for
something like Charles Ross. A desert that cooks orange and holds
shape - when young! You could always go American and use a ripe Golden
Delicious as a cooker. (Waiting for uproar)

No - why? The french just cook with eating apples. They don't
differentiate.

In reply to Jim Jackson ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

cliff_the_gardener wrote:

Most true cookers cook to a puree or froth. As for a cooking apple
that cooks sweet and holds it shape on cooking. Would probalbly go
for something like Charles Ross. A desert that cooks orange and
holds shape - when young! You could always go American and use a
ripe Golden Delicious as a cooker. (Waiting for uproar)

No - why? The french just cook with eating apples. They don't
differentiate.

Lots of people do. We had an apple tree in the garden when we were kids and
we had apple-everything for pud far too often, consequently I can't stand
cooked apples any more, except occasionally a big baked Bramley with raisins
and golden syrup.

Yum.

Jim Jackson wrote:
cliff_the_gardener wrote:
Most true cookers cook to a puree or froth. As for a cooking apple that
cooks sweet and holds it shape on cooking. Would probalbly go for
something like Charles Ross. A desert that cooks orange and holds
shape - when young! You could always go American and use a ripe Golden
Delicious as a cooker. (Waiting for uproar)

No - why? The french just cook with eating apples. They don't
differentiate.

I think the poor Golden Delicious has been classed as a really rubbish
apple - that and the fact that prior to being in supermarkets it has
been stored for months in carbon dioxide ... There's a fashion about
apples atm. If it's not red or shiny, it must be 'a connoisseur's
variety'. I certainly had fallen for it when bying my apple tree years
ago... Where were you Cliff when I needed you, huh?!

In reply to La Puce ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

Jim Jackson wrote:
cliff_the_gardener wrote:
Most true cookers cook to a puree or froth. As for a cooking apple
that cooks sweet and holds it shape on cooking. Would probalbly go
for something like Charles Ross. A desert that cooks orange and
holds shape - when young! You could always go American and use a
ripe Golden Delicious as a cooker. (Waiting for uproar)

No - why? The french just cook with eating apples. They don't
differentiate.

I think the poor Golden Delicious has been classed as a really rubbish
apple - that and the fact that prior to being in supermarkets it has
been stored for months in carbon dioxide ... There's a fashion about
apples atm. If it's not red or shiny, it must be 'a connoisseur's
variety'. I certainly had fallen for it when bying my apple tree years
ago... Where were you Cliff when I needed you, huh?!

I still like the GD, although you're right, it has become "unfashionable". I
don't understand why, I think a crisp, sharp apple is nicer, although the
sweeter "English" reds seem to be more popular, especially with my
littl'uns.