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#16
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Damons? Plums?
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley writes: | | Well, there are about 70 in Bean. What is now Prunus used to be | half a dozen different genera, but they were 'lumped' - whether | that was justified or not, I can't say. The old Prunus was just | the plums. | | Prunus - plums | Amygdalus - almond | Armeniaca - apricot | Persica - peach | Cerasus - cherries | Padus - more cherries | Laurocerasus - cherry laurels | | (per Komarov, 1971, fide Lee & Wen 2001) | | But a single genus has been the most common position for a long time | (e.g. Bentham & Hooker, 1865). | | Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the | clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word | on the topic see | | http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis, and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not! I did say that it "doesn't look well resolved". However, as a point of order, two genes (ndhF and ITS) were used. (From what I've seen elsewhere ndhF is too conservative to be ideal at this level.) Especially for a genus like Prunus :-( Regards, Nick Maclaren. -- Stewart Robert Hinsley |
#17
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Damons? Plums?
In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley writes: | | | | Molecular systematics work doesn't support the split genera, but the | | clade as a whole doesn't look well resolved. For the latest (April) word | | on the topic see | | | | http://www.plantsystematics.com/qika...g/jse08050.pdf | | Thanks. But it seems to be yet another single gene/whatever analysis, | and therefore as likely to be completely misleading as not! | | I did say that it "doesn't look well resolved". However, as a point of | order, two genes (ndhF and ITS) were used. (From what I've seen | elsewhere ndhF is too conservative to be ideal at this level.) Oh, it wasn't a criticism of you! And my point is statistical, not molecular - the chances of a single characteristic being misleading about the ancestry of an organism are very high indeed. It's not possible to give numbers without more data, but I could explain why fairly easily. Of course, uk.rec.gardening is not precisely the group for fairly advanced statistical concepts, but what the hell? :-) Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#19
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Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be | doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the | length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to | one genus or another altogether! Yeah. If P. spinosa is a chromosome doubled hybrid of P. cerasifera and Microcerasus microcarpa, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be transferred to the latter genus. Of course, many authorities regard Microcerasus as merely a section inside Prunus, which makes things a lot easier. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#20
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Damons? Plums?
In message , Nick Maclaren
writes In article , Gordon H writes: | | There is a smallish tree in the park just beyond my garden fence which | bears a damson-like fruit some years. It's a darn nuisance because | it drops them on my garden, and because small boys climb the tree and | throw them at my house if they spot them | | I did try eating one, but it didn't taste like a plum, and the windfalls | were all bruised. What did they taste like? And what is the stone like? Regards, Nick Maclaren. It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this year, sorry. -- Gordon H |
#21
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Damons? Plums?
In article , Gordon H writes: | | It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval | shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in | colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this | year, sorry. Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more. Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#22
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Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 10:15, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: In article , Sacha writes: | | Perhaps good old Prunus are best left alone, after all. I really cannot be | doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the | length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to | one genus or another altogether! Yeah. If P. spinosa is a chromosome doubled hybrid of P. cerasifera and Microcerasus microcarpa, then there is no reason why it shouldn't be transferred to the latter genus. Of course, many authorities regard Microcerasus as merely a section inside Prunus, which makes things a lot easier. AFAICS the salient differences are that damsons are smaller and more tart, which is why they're more often used in cooking. -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
#23
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Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 10:48, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote: In article , Gordon H writes: | | It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval | shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in | colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this | year, sorry. Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more. Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention. Regards, Nick Maclaren. I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
#24
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Damons? Plums?
In article , Sacha writes: | | I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: | http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm There are some. Also some damsons are yellow, and even green. There really is no hard and fast distinction between any of the categories of P. domestica. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#25
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Damons? Plums?
Sacha writes
I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether! I'd agree with you is it was all about just tidying species into convenient boxes. But since the overall aim is to reflect the evolutionary tree, it's good that there are people willing to go into this in whatever level of detail is necessary to get to as near the truth as is possible. -- Kay |
#26
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Damons? Plums?
On 15/8/08 15:29, in article , "K"
wrote: Sacha writes I really cannot be doing with these tiresome people who can spend 3 hours arguing about the length of stamens in order to support their theory that a plant belongs to one genus or another altogether! I'd agree with you is it was all about just tidying species into convenient boxes. But since the overall aim is to reflect the evolutionary tree, it's good that there are people willing to go into this in whatever level of detail is necessary to get to as near the truth as is possible. I'm very happy for others to do it and I do admire their persistence and understand the reasons behind it. It's just not for me! It's a bit like snowdrops, which I really do love - I simply cannot spend the winter on my knees arguing over which variety is which but galantophiles are in 7th heaven! -- Sacha http://www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
#27
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Damons? Plums?
In message , Sacha
writes On 15/8/08 10:48, in article , "Nick Maclaren" wrote: In article , Gordon H writes: | | It was some time since I tried a bite, but they have the slimmer oval | shape of damsons, and are smaller than most plums, deep purple in | colour. I will see if I can find one, but haven't noticed them this | year, sorry. Some damsons are round! Except for the damson/bullace, I don't know of any plums with deep purple fruit that is 2 cm in diameter or more. Unless there is a form of P. cerasifera that my books don't mention. Regards, Nick Maclaren. I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm They are similar, but not easy to tell, I should maybe get a leaf off the tree? -- Gordon H |
#28
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Damons? Plums?
In article , Gordon H writes: | | I found this re damsons. To me plums aren't as deep a colour as this: | http://tinyurl.com/5flbcm | | They are similar, but not easy to tell, I should maybe get a leaf off | the tree? See if the leaves and growth look plum-like. I am still puzzled about what way it doesn't taste like a plum. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#29
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Damons? Plums?
"Sacha" wrote in message
We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica) This got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because both are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to make smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use, enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-) You do ask some interesting questions. I just mentally chuck them all into the 'prunus' bin in my brain, so was interested to find out more after reading the discussions. But I must say, the answers you got on this one!!!!.......they had the head of this little black duck spinning....... Anyhowever, I wandered off and got out my books on growing fruit in Oz and found the following info in the one I enjoy most so I offer it for what it's worth(tailoring it and cutting many pages to a few paras to try to fit the Continental flavour of your post) . The sloe has 32 chromosomes, the myrobalan (P. cerasifera) has 16 and 'a freak combination of the two has been shown to occasionally give a plant like P. domestica, with its 48 chromosomes'. P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace, the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. Mirabelles widely grown in France mainly for preserves and tarts, better cooked than fresh. St. Julians mainly used as rootstock, their plums much like damsons 'and the quetsche also known as the German prune, or Carlsbad plum, is another plum of the insitia tye, used widely as a culinary fruit.' There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent introductions to Europe' Interesting topic. |
#30
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Damons? Plums?
In article , "FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes: | | The sloe has 32 chromosomes, the myrobalan (P. cerasifera) has 16 and 'a | freak combination of the two has been shown to occasionally give a plant | like P. domestica, with its 48 chromosomes'. Yes. A chromosome doubled hybrid. Probably natural, but we don't know for certain - any more than for wheat. The abstract I referred to said that the sloe itself is a natural chromosome doubled hybrid between P. cerasifera and P. microcarpa. | P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the bullace, | the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. ... Nowadays, all (?) authorities agree that P. institia is just a subspecies of P. domestica - if that. | There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum | stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the ashes | of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum | from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent | introductions to Europe' In other words, the large-fruited hybrids are recent. Not all that surprising, really. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
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