"Sacha" wrote in message
"FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Sacha" wrote in message

We had some people in today who live in France and they were looking for
Damsons which they say seem to be unknown there (Paris and Corsica)
This
got us onto what is the difference between a Damson and a Plum because
both
are Prunus and probably domestica? I understand that damsons tend to
make
smaller trees but if anyone can explain in terms of flavour or use,
enquiring minds would be really grateful. ;-)

You do ask some interesting questions. I just mentally chuck them all
into
the 'prunus' bin in my brain, so was interested to find out more after
reading the discussions. But I must say, the answers you got on this
one!!!!.......they had the head of this little black duck spinning.......
snip

There is also an interesting discussion on archaelogical finds of plum
stones and that 'no domestica plum stones...have been found under the
ashes
of Pompeii' and that the plums mentioned by Pliny (who wrote of the plum
from Damascus)were 'all insitias, or if domesticas, were recent
introductions to Europe'

Interesting topic.

Wow! Talk about getting the bit between your teeth........ ;-)) Thank
you
so muchfor going to all this trouble and producing such interesting info.
I
especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
interesting to me!

I'm going to do the unforgiveable on usenet....

Me too :-)) Prolly why I like that book so much. It's full of such
snippets.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given writes:

| P. insitia also has 48 chromosomes and within this group are the
bullace,
| the damson, the mirabelles and the St. Julians. ...

Nowadays, all (?) authorities agree that P. institia is just a subspecies
of P. domestica - if that.

Yeah, he did mention that, but as I was trimming it to suit Sacha's specific
question, I edited.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message

It would amuse me to introduce a Neolithic
fruit crop into the UK, in the 21st century :-) I am sure that it has
been done before, of course.

I bought a most fascinating book last time we were in the UK called
"Prehistoric Cooking" by Jacqui Wood. Great reading and surprisingly
sensible given the title.

On 17/8/08 11:06, in article
, "FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Sacha" wrote in message
snip
I
especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
interesting to me!

I'm going to do the unforgiveable on usenet....

Me too :-)) Prolly why I like that book so much. It's full of such
snippets.


I think it's because you can then imagine 'real people' sitting around
outside their caves, munching on plums, or oysters, or whatever it is that
is found. It becomes rather touching in a way, because it creates a human
link stretching back centuries.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

"Sacha" wrote in message
"FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Sacha" wrote in message
snip
I
especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
interesting to me!

I'm going to do the unforgiveable on usenet....

Me too :-)) Prolly why I like that book so much. It's full of such
snippets.

I think it's because you can then imagine 'real people' sitting around
outside their caves, munching on plums, or oysters, or whatever it is that
is found. It becomes rather touching in a way, because it creates a human
link stretching back centuries.

Yes. That is what I enjoyed so much about the "Prehistoric Cooking" book I
mentioned. We all have to eat and cooking isn't high science and probably
hasn't changed since the first cooks had to dish up a cooked meal. It
always surprises me that so few people seem to be able (or perhaps included)
to cook these days.

I find recipes from America especially frustrating given their reliance on
prepackaged ingredients. I was reading an American mag today and of the 15
or so recipes in it, not one started from basics. It was all, 'a carton
of', 'a 14 and a half ounce can of' etc ad nauseum. And the things that had
to be bought were all what I would consider to be really basic ingredients.
One was Polenta. Bought in a tube??????

My husband said he'd seen a soup recipe in there for Tomato and something or
other soup, but that it had no tomatoes in it so he thought they'd made a
mistake and meant 3 tomatoes rather than 3 onions. When I read it, the
recipe used 2 cans of marinara mix.

On 17/8/08 11:50, in article
, "FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Sacha" wrote in message
"FarmI"
ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Sacha" wrote in message
snip
I
especially like the bit above about no such plum stones being found at
Pompeii - for some reason human details like that make a topic much more
interesting to me!

I'm going to do the unforgiveable on usenet....

Me too :-)) Prolly why I like that book so much. It's full of such
snippets.

I think it's because you can then imagine 'real people' sitting around
outside their caves, munching on plums, or oysters, or whatever it is that
is found. It becomes rather touching in a way, because it creates a human
link stretching back centuries.

Yes. That is what I enjoyed so much about the "Prehistoric Cooking" book I
mentioned. We all have to eat and cooking isn't high science and probably
hasn't changed since the first cooks had to dish up a cooked meal. It
always surprises me that so few people seem to be able (or perhaps included)
to cook these days.

I find recipes from America especially frustrating given their reliance on
prepackaged ingredients. I was reading an American mag today and of the 15
or so recipes in it, not one started from basics. It was all, 'a carton
of', 'a 14 and a half ounce can of' etc ad nauseum. And the things that had
to be bought were all what I would consider to be really basic ingredients.
One was Polenta. Bought in a tube??????

My husband said he'd seen a soup recipe in there for Tomato and something or
other soup, but that it had no tomatoes in it so he thought they'd made a
mistake and meant 3 tomatoes rather than 3 onions. When I read it, the
recipe used 2 cans of marinara mix.


Hmmm, I don't much like cooking but I *really* don't like cooking that way.
I happily use canned tomatoes but not without a slight feeling that I'm
cheating. I'm always a little surprised at US recipes that call for cheese
and it turns out to be Kraft slices or that stuff in a tube. That said,
I've eaten some wonderful meals in USA in both posh and average restaurants
and in friends' houses, so it can't be totally 'instant cuisine' everywhere.
Perhaps they have yet to go through the Fray Bentos steak & kidney pie in a
tin stage in some ways! And Vesta curries and Surprise peas - we're not
guiltless here, though they do seem to have faded into the background!

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008, Sacha wrote:

"David Rance" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008, Sacha wrote:

On 17/8/08 10:01, in article , "Nick
Maclaren" wrote:


In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 writes:
|
| Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin.
| The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word
| is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille
| being an example.
|
| And English (to include USanian) is little better, if at all: think
'muffin'?

Indeed, but it is relatively rare for a single dialect not to distinguish
two things that are (a) both commonly used and (b) where there is a
significant possibility of confusion. Muffin is unambiguous, once you
know which side of the pond you are.

But I have read French recipes which use unadorned groseille, where
any groseille could be used, but where the results would taste very
different. I am pretty sure that they meant gooseberry, there.


Bit like 'mûres' which, I think, can mean both blackberries or mulberries.
I imagine it's more often used to mean blackberries.

Only because blackberries are more plentiful than mulberries. ;-)

Sez he living in Calva country. ;-)

But the Normans don't know anything about blackberry and apple pie!

David

--
David Rance
writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On 17/8/08 13:43, in article ,
"David Rance" wrote:

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008, Sacha wrote:

snip
Bit like 'mûres' which, I think, can mean both blackberries or mulberries.
I imagine it's more often used to mean blackberries.

Only because blackberries are more plentiful than mulberries. ;-)

Sez he living in Calva country. ;-)

But the Normans don't know anything about blackberry and apple pie!

David

Pretty good at Clafoutis, though. And thinking of that, does anyone know
why we so rarely see those big 'white' cherries that are grown in France.
They're imported into UK but they don't seem to be grown here, or not that
I've ever seen.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

The message
from David Rance contains these words:

Hmm, I'll have to try that. I love mackerel and have just bought a
gooseberry bush.

What I'd give for a mackerel bush...

--
Rusty
Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
(Alice Thomas Ellis)

The message
from Sacha contains these words:
On 17/8/08 07:44, in article ,
"David Rance" wrote:
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008, Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

They do distinguish between groseille rouge, groseille blanche and
groseille à maquereau (gooseberry).

Something fishy about that. Mackerel berry?

Maquereau is also a colloquial word for a pimp!

David

What an exciting life you lead - ordering in a restaurant must be very
hazardous! ;-)

Try ordering in an Italian one! (especially vegetables, say, fennel...)

--
Rusty
Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
(Alice Thomas Ellis)

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 writes:
|
| Well, it IS just a variety of plum! And, yes, that's its origin.
| The French terms that I find a a bit odd are where the same word
| is used for two items that are used very differently - groseille
| being an example.
|
| And English (to include USanian) is little better, if at all: think
'muffin'?

Indeed, but it is relatively rare for a single dialect not to distinguish
two things that are (a) both commonly used and (b) where there is a
significant possibility of confusion. Muffin is unambiguous, once you
know which side of the pond you are.

Unfortunately not.

You can ask for a muffin and get a proper little flat breadlingthing, or
you may be offered a large cup-cake - on this side of the pond.

Breadlingthings are virtually unknown on t'other. Of course, if they'd
stayed in the Empire like sensible folk, they'd never have adopted the
moufflon as their muffing standard, what?

But I have read French recipes which use unadorned groseille, where
any groseille could be used, but where the results would taste very
different. I am pretty sure that they meant gooseberry, there.

More than likely. I really must reinstate the study: when on the pooter
(upstairs) and wanting to consult any of my decent dictionaries, I have
to go downstairs.

Sigh.

Plod.

Replod.

Harrap's New Shorter French and English Dictionary: (But still requires
a fork-lift...)*

Groseille s.f. 1. G. à grappes, (red-, white-) currant. 2. G. à
maquereau, gooseberry.

Groseillier s.m. 1. Currant-bush. 2. G. à maquereau, gooseberry-bush.

*How big/heavy is the Standard version?

--
Rusty
Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
(Alice Thomas Ellis)

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

Bit like 'mûres' which, I think, can mean both blackberries or mulberries.
I imagine it's more often used to mean blackberries.

Mûre sauvage, où Mûre de ronce. Mûre (seul), = mulberry

No doubt it will be shortened if the context allows...

--
Rusty
Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
(Alice Thomas Ellis)

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

Cassis is certainly blackcurrants but you can ask for a Kir Mûres in France
and get the blackberry version. I don't like Kir Cassis though a Kir
Framboise will do if I'm absolutely pushed. ;-)

Strawberries steeped in whisky with added sugar make a fine liqueur, and
you'd never know the spirit was whisky.

I made a bottle with wild strawberries this year, and it was rather
disappointing.

The next batch will be with cultivated strawbs.

--
Rusty
Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
(Alice Thomas Ellis)

The message
from David Rance contains these words:

But the Normans don't know anything about blackberry and apple pie!

The French don't seem to know anything about cooking apples, either.
(Use 'cooking' how you will, as an adjective, or a verb...)

--
Rusty
Men love women, women love children, children love hamsters.
(Alice Thomas Ellis)

On 17/8/08 00:49, in article ,
"Rusty Hinge 2" wrote:

The message
from Sacha contains these words:

And English (to include USanian) is little better, if at all: think
'muffin'?

I've only every known groseille as gooseberry so David's post is very
enlightening. But most of my 'French leave' has been in Normandy and
Brittany which might explains that perhaps.

Well, we always called goosegogs 'belly-achers' as kids...

I don't like them much so rarely ate them as a child and never straight off
the bush, so I never suffered. But they're famous for stomach ache if eaten
unripe, aren't they? I only like the big dessert ones, the name of which I
never remember!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon