-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

create unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.gardening.allotments

Newsgroup line:
uk.rec.gardening.allotments Allotments holders group


*** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.rec.gardening.allotments

I have searched to find many allotment web sites and found that if this
group was opened it would allow all allotment (and would be) allotment
holders to to exchange views in one convenient place. This in turn would
give valued exchange of views by every visitor. To also pick up tips and
sometimes tricks into allotment gardening.

CHARTER: uk.rec.gardening.allotments

To discuss allotment issues, planting times, tips on gardening, pest
controls and general allotment posts.

Advertising

Advertising is forbidden

Binaries & Formatting

Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are
forbidden. Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which
a pointer may be posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP)
may be used where authentication is important and should be as
short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly
formatted messages are prohibited. To see how to make some
common newsreaders comply with this, read
http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html.

Warning. Anyone posting contrary to this charter may be reported to their
"postmaster" and/or Service Provider.

END CHARTER

PROCEDU

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved. The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until February 7th) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method. Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce.
Please refer to this document if you have any questions about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
uk.net.news.announce
uk.net.news.config
uk.rec.gardening

Proponent:
Gary Poston

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On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:45:49 +0000, John Bean wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:24:59 +0000, Derek Turner wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:11:13 +0000 (UTC), "Mike" wrote:




It may interest u.r.g members (and others) to know that (according to
Google) the proponent has NEVER contributed to the parent group!

How do you know he has not been a lurker watching the allotment questions
and discussions and decided that there is a need for an allotment newsgroup?

I don't, but he's not been backward in coming forward in the other
groups to which he's subscribed.

Really? I see no posts at all under this name in 2003/2004, and an overall
average of about two posts a month since 1999, consisting of a few bursts
of activity with large silences in between. Either a lurker or uses more
than one persona. Perhaps the proponent could comment on this to alleviate
your suspicions.

As a result of this article (I presume) I have received an email from the
proponent - who is apparently having difficulty posting to usenet - asking
me to post a message on his behalf. This is the body of the email I
received:

------ start quote ---------
Hi John
Could you do me a big favour?
Could you post on
uk.rec.gardening.allotments
uk.net.news.config

That im unable to answer any posts at the moment as i have ISP problems
which have been reported.
Ive posted to the Google Newsgroup Server but that may not appear for a
good few hours
Ill be very thankful if you could
Regards

G.Poston
----- end quote ----------

Don't ask me what it's all about, I'm only the messenger.

--
John Bean

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia (Charles Schultz)

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:45:49 +0000, John Bean wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:24:59 +0000, Derek Turner wrote:

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 10:11:13 +0000 (UTC), "Mike" wrote:




It may interest u.r.g members (and others) to know that (according to
Google) the proponent has NEVER contributed to the parent group!

How do you know he has not been a lurker watching the allotment questions
and discussions and decided that there is a need for an allotment newsgroup?

I don't, but he's not been backward in coming forward in the other
groups to which he's subscribed.

Really? I see no posts at all under this name in 2003/2004, and an overall
average of about two posts a month since 1999, consisting of a few bursts
of activity with large silences in between. Either a lurker or uses more
than one persona. Perhaps the proponent could comment on this to alleviate
your suspicions.

As a result of this article (I presume) I have received an email from the
proponent - who is apparently having difficulty posting to usenet - asking
me to post a message on his behalf. This is the body of the email I
received:

------ start quote ---------
Hi John
Could you do me a big favour?
Could you post on
uk.rec.gardening.allotments
uk.net.news.config

That im unable to answer any posts at the moment as i have ISP problems
which have been reported.
Ive posted to the Google Newsgroup Server but that may not appear for a
good few hours
Ill be very thankful if you could
Regards

G.Poston
----- end quote ----------

Don't ask me what it's all about, I'm only the messenger.

--
John Bean

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today.
It's already tomorrow in Australia (Charles Schultz)

Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:55:24

uk.net.news.config Gary Poston

[urg included in crosspost; suggest it is left in when following up as
unnc is a bit busy for people just wanting to discuss this RFD]

[urg folks should note that anything they say must be crossposted to
unnc for it to "count"]

RATIONALE: uk.rec.gardening.allotments

I have searched to find many allotment web sites and found that if this
group was opened it would allow all allotment (and would be) allotment
holders to to exchange views in one convenient place. This in turn would
give valued exchange of views by every visitor. To also pick up tips and
sometimes tricks into allotment gardening.

This is all already on-topic in urg; I think we need a justification of
why allotment gardening shouldn't continue in urg in the rationale.

CHARTER: uk.rec.gardening.allotments

To discuss allotment issues, planting times, tips on gardening, pest
controls and general allotment posts.

All covered by urg.

As the proponent of the current charter of URG [1] but no longer active
in the group I would be inclined to vote (and argue) against this unless
(and I'd be very surprised if that was the case) the feeling of urg
people was that they didn't want allotment discussion.

I suspect that if this group was created the vast majority of urg people
would stay exactly where they are and Dr Death would find it on his list
fairly soon.

[1] hello urg people, long time no see, hope you are all well.

--
Wm ...
Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days from date of posting

Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:55:24

uk.net.news.config Gary Poston

[urg included in crosspost; suggest it is left in when following up as
unnc is a bit busy for people just wanting to discuss this RFD]

[urg folks should note that anything they say must be crossposted to
unnc for it to "count"]

RATIONALE: uk.rec.gardening.allotments

I have searched to find many allotment web sites and found that if this
group was opened it would allow all allotment (and would be) allotment
holders to to exchange views in one convenient place. This in turn would
give valued exchange of views by every visitor. To also pick up tips and
sometimes tricks into allotment gardening.

This is all already on-topic in urg; I think we need a justification of
why allotment gardening shouldn't continue in urg in the rationale.

CHARTER: uk.rec.gardening.allotments

To discuss allotment issues, planting times, tips on gardening, pest
controls and general allotment posts.

All covered by urg.

As the proponent of the current charter of URG [1] but no longer active
in the group I would be inclined to vote (and argue) against this unless
(and I'd be very surprised if that was the case) the feeling of urg
people was that they didn't want allotment discussion.

I suspect that if this group was created the vast majority of urg people
would stay exactly where they are and Dr Death would find it on his list
fairly soon.

[1] hello urg people, long time no see, hope you are all well.

--
Wm ...
Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days from date of posting

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:38:13 +0000, "Wm..."
wrote:

give valued exchange of views by every visitor. To also pick up tips and
sometimes tricks into allotment gardening.

This is all already on-topic in urg; I think we need a justification of
why allotment gardening shouldn't continue in urg in the rationale.

agreed. many urglers seem to be taking the 'why not?' approach but, as
you point out, it's up to the proponent to argue cogently (as you did
in the creation of urg) why a new group is needed. urglers are just
too friendly and tolerant for unnc!

Derek (proponent uk.rec.shooting.*, and that *was* an eye-opener!)

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 18:38:13 +0000, "Wm..."
wrote:

give valued exchange of views by every visitor. To also pick up tips and
sometimes tricks into allotment gardening.

This is all already on-topic in urg; I think we need a justification of
why allotment gardening shouldn't continue in urg in the rationale.

agreed. many urglers seem to be taking the 'why not?' approach but, as
you point out, it's up to the proponent to argue cogently (as you did
in the creation of urg) why a new group is needed. urglers are just
too friendly and tolerant for unnc!

Derek (proponent uk.rec.shooting.*, and that *was* an eye-opener!)

The message

from Gary Poston contains these words:
The message

from Gary Poston contains these words:

REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

create unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.gardening.allotments


Is there a need for one ???? The suggested topics are all discussed in
uk.rec.gardening anyway, (where Gary Poston has never taken part) and
are of equal interest to many gardeners who don't hold an allotment.

Also sent to uk.net.news.config

Janet

"Janet wrote in message
REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

create unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.gardening.allotments


Is there a need for one ???? The suggested topics are all discussed in
uk.rec.gardening anyway, (where Gary Poston has never taken part) and
are of equal interest to many gardeners who don't hold an allotment.


As you know, I am an allotment holder, also an allotment site
representative, and I just can't see the need for a separate Ng. Gardening
is gardening, whether it's in a back yard, a huge garden around a house or
on an allotment site. We all learn from each others different experiences.
Just look at some other gardening Ngs, dead in the water.
Suppose it all comes down to, are you a splitter of a lumper, just like the
botanists. I'm a lumper because I think one learns more about more with
input from diverse sources.

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars
368 data units completed.

The message ]
from "Wm..." contains these words:

/sharp slice with mattock/

why a new group is needed. urglers are just
too friendly and tolerant for unnc!

That's us: Nature - green in thought and finger.

Yes, and I am afraid that that attitude, while commendable, may result
(mixing group metaphors again) in a group that will wither shortly after
being planted.

I would like to think that it might attract new contributors.

So the thing for urglers to think about is this: would you read and
post to, actively take part in, the proposed group or would you carry on
much as you do now in urg?

I would see if I thought it worthwhile to subscribe to, and give it a
few months.

If you would take part in the proposed group and think it needs to be
distinct from urg then say so here.

I might take part, but for my part I don't think a subdivision is
necessary. That isn't to say I believe it to be undesirable though.

If you think (as I do) that allotments are covered by urg then say so
too.

Yes. I think urg covers allotments.

No pack drill, no forced planting of dahlias or carrots

HTH -- I will vote with the flow of most urg folks.

My vote hasn't fallen one way or the other - yet.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Xref: kermit uk.net.news.config:127194 uk.rec.gardening:185215

The message ]
from "Wm..." contains these words:

[1] hello urg people, long time no see, hope you are all well.

Hello Wm. We are still there, though some of us are using spam fritters
as an address. Why don't you drop in a bit more often and munch on a
tasty thinned-out carrot?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Xref: kermit uk.net.news.config:127194 uk.rec.gardening:185215

The message ]
from "Wm..." contains these words:

[1] hello urg people, long time no see, hope you are all well.

Hello Wm. We are still there, though some of us are using spam fritters
as an address. Why don't you drop in a bit more often and munch on a
tasty thinned-out carrot?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Derek Turner contains these words:

Derek (proponent uk.rec.shooting.*, and that *was* an eye-opener!)

Go on - open my eyes?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Derek Turner contains these words:

Derek (proponent uk.rec.shooting.*, and that *was* an eye-opener!)

Go on - open my eyes?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Re-crossposted to unnc ...

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 23:23:09 -0000, "Bob Hobden"
wrote:

~
~"Janet wrote in message
~ REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
~
~ This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
~ in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:
~
~ create unmoderated newsgroup uk.rec.gardening.allotments
~
~
~ Is there a need for one ???? The suggested topics are all discussed in
~ uk.rec.gardening anyway, (where Gary Poston has never taken part) and
~ are of equal interest to many gardeners who don't hold an allotment.
~
~
~As you know, I am an allotment holder, also an allotment site
~representative, and I just can't see the need for a separate Ng. Gardening
~is gardening, whether it's in a back yard, a huge garden around a house or
~on an allotment site. We all learn from each others different experiences.
~Just look at some other gardening Ngs, dead in the water.
~Suppose it all comes down to, are you a splitter of a lumper, just like the
~botanists. I'm a lumper because I think one learns more about more with
~input from diverse sources.
~

I agree with you - I came to urg because of my allotment questions,
and have learned loads about all sorts of things I'll never grow for
one reason or another, and got some fantastic ideas, and also some
seed swaps. For instance, I'd never have learned about the waterbutt
irrigation systems available if it wasn't for urg, which was in a
normal gardening post last summer but is fantastically appropriate to
allotments.


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!