I didnt say "I believed" I said there is convincing scientific evidence. Facts +
belief systems do not "meet somewhere in the middle". They dont mix at all.

There is convincing scientific evidence that 80% or more of personality is inborn,
hardwired, not just genetically but developmentally wired, like our fingerprints
develop in utero... which is why monozygotic, AKA identical twins have different
fingerprints.

There was genetic evidence for alcoholism a long time ago. And why, in a caring
family with multiple caring loving children there appears a sociopath that doesnt
give a damn about anybody but themselves? Rather than cling to the "belief" that
alcoholics and sociopaths and narcissists "decide" to be the way they are we can fund
and encourage scientists to find the genetic basis of mental illness, the kind of
illness that either prevents the person from having loving relationships with others,
the kind of mental illness that drives people to suicide.. or homicide. The kind
that drives them deep into a bottle of alcohol or meth or cocaine to burn themselves
out. I am not talking about funding research to find out why some people prefer
pink.

It may be that you believe what you do because of what you saw first hand and the
choices you made. My mother was not addicted to anything except her belief that it
was perfectly normal to be a mean, nasty depressive with a vicious streak if crossed.
She was the giant black hole of negativity that sucked all the joy and life out of
those closest to her all the while presenting this caring loving mask to her
"friends". There was only one person she really loved and that was herself, her
house, her gardens. Did she "choose" to be a mean self centered depressive? No. And
her mother, my grandmother was the sweetest most genuinely kind and accepting person
I have ever met and thankfully the person who mostly raised me.

I dont blame my mother for who she was or how miserable she made me. It must have
been hell to have been my mother. I tried and others tried to convince her to use
anti-depressants (which everyone else in the family uses) and she would sneer and say
"so I can go around being a happy idiot"? And my mother was a social worker for
crissake. Despite the negativity I grew up into a reasonably positive person who
finds a little bliss every day, like those red tulips I planted last year are just
kick ass in the morning sun.

Ingrid

On Sun, 10 May 2009 09:41:55 -0500, Jangchub wrote:
And I do not believe we are genetically predisposed. But I believe in
a different set of concepts than you, so we'll meet in the middle.

Alcoholism is not a disease. It is a self-indulgent, selfish, care about nobody but
themselves kind of thing.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

And I find it crushing that black people (as a group) are extremely homophobic and
are believed to have been the voting block that got thru the California anti-gay
marriage referendum. But then again, they perversely dislike Jewish people who have
more than any other group supported their civil rights.

I remember as a grad student (1970's) I had gone to the another lab in a different
department to do an experiment and found a big poster of a large breasted woman in a
wet T shirt plastered to the front of the refrigerator. When I got back to my office
I complained to my fellow grad students about how sexist that was and all 3 said I
was being silly and were completely unsympathetic. I was totally shocked and told
them so, pointing to one at a time and saying "you are Jewish and should know better,
just wait until I tell your wife", you are gay and how can you ignore any kind of
discrimination against others" and "you are so short people are always making jokes
and you know you will be discriminated against", "so how can any of you NOT be
sensitive to discrimination against women?"

sheesh

Ingrid

On Mon, 11 May 2009 11:17:12 -0700, Billy wrote:
"Milk" is a civil rights movie about a group of people who resented
their lack of "civil rights": fired from jobs, denial of housing,
beatings at the hands of the police, and murdered for who they were. As
with African-Americans, these "rights" had to be demanded from the
American political structure.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

I think we missed that boat when we let Monsanto screw with our milk supply and
allowed GMO foods into market in 1992. Get that genie back in the bottle............

Ingrid

There is another civil rights battle taking place in America as well.
The right to healthy food.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

wrote in message
...
And I find it crushing that black people (as a group) are extremely
homophobic and
are believed to have been the voting block that got thru the California
anti-gay
marriage referendum. But then again, they perversely dislike Jewish
people who have
more than any other group supported their civil rights.

I remember as a grad student (1970's) I had gone to the another lab in a
different
department to do an experiment and found a big poster of a large breasted
woman in a
wet T shirt plastered to the front of the refrigerator. When I got back
to my office
I complained to my fellow grad students about how sexist that was and all
3 said I
was being silly and were completely unsympathetic. I was totally shocked
and told
them so, pointing to one at a time and saying "you are Jewish and should
know better,
just wait until I tell your wife", you are gay and how can you ignore any
kind of
discrimination against others" and "you are so short people are always
making jokes
and you know you will be discriminated against", "so how can any of you
NOT be
sensitive to discrimination against women?"

sheesh

Ingrid

As a group women hate women who look better than they do.

There is this misconception that agony or mental illness is the mother of invention
or creativity or "drive". Would Van Gogh ever been a painter if he hadnt suffered
mental illness? Van Gogh did not paint during his spells of mental or physical
illness. Well my FIL and MIL are both fabulous artists and he was happy and mentally
balanced and PRODUCTIVE for his entire life. She was depressed and unproductive
until treatment which unleashed her productivity and she is still going strong at
80+.

There is nothing 'romantic' about suffering with mental or physical illness.

The point is to fix the genetic problem, not simply flush the egg. I am sure a well
and healthy Steven Hawkins would be much productive over a much longer life span. Not
that they know what causes LG yet much less fix it.

Ingrid

On Sun, 10 May 2009 11:32:27 -0400, Bill wrote:
Scares me as who decides the military or some corporation with the
good of mankind on the agenda ? I believe our best attributes can come
from duress . Got pain fix it or try . I consider this as medicated
leprosy. AKA Death.

Bill who wonders if Steven Hawkins would make the cut.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

Actually it is more like medicine, treatment to prevent suffering. Fix the genes
that cause the suffering, treat those that cant be fixed.

There is more eugenics in the male obsession with "male children" in some cultures.
Now that ultrasounds and amnio can determine sex female children are being "flushed".
Fix that first.

Ingrid

On Sun, 10 May 2009 09:39:25 -0700, Billy wrote:
This sounds a lot like eugenics:
the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to
increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

In article ,
wrote:
Ingrid, what is this catharsis about? In your original post you gave
your bona fides as "someone who has worked with emotionally disturbed
people and then gone on to become a scientists . ." This is not an
argument.

You go on to say," I am convinced there is enough scientific evidence to
suggest that 80% or more of our "character" is genetically determined,
hardwired in at birth and that it can only be slightly modified by
"training". While Tay Sachs or sickle cell anemia are genetic diseases,
what deterministic impact would they have on "charater"?
This is not an argument.

You, or your article, use the words "may", "likely", "tendency", and
"propensity" in your discussion. This is not an argument.

"While several research groups have found evidence INDICATING THAT
the polymorphic transcriptional control region of the serotonin
transporter gene MAY CONTRIBUTE TO anger-related behavioral
characteristics." So if people get their "polymorphic" do-hicky fixed,
they won't be angry any more? When "INDICATING THAT" becomes "links",
and "MAY CONTRIBUTE TO" becomes "causes", please fill us in but in the
meantime, this is not an argument.

Meanwhile, I about wore my legs off yesterday, running up and down my
part of the hill to install and amend a couple of terraces for my
peppers. With another strip that isn't prep-ed yet, I should have room
for 34 peppers, if I zig-zag them (no I'm not gonna smoke 'em, at least
not until they are harvested. Unfortunately, they are right up against
the interior, south side of my fence, so they had better do their work
quickly before they run out of Sun light. Otherwise, I got a radish
yesterday, and will use more in a salad tonight. I planted eight tomatoes
(5 Brandywine, 2 German striped, and 1 Mortgage Lifter), five of them
were flowering, and inter-spaced among them I planted summer squash. I
got the idea from a web site that recommended interspersing tall and low
plants. I'll let you know how it works out. I'm going for 18# of chcken
manure/100 sq. ft. for the heavy feeders. A bag of mesquite charcoal
turned out to be about 30% charcoal dust, which I incorporated into the
pepper terrace as well. One thing I've noticed about the alfalfa
mulching is that it heats up once it gets wet. Helps warm the soil.
After the dishes, the garden.




There is this misconception that agony or mental illness is the mother of
invention
or creativity or "drive". Would Van Gogh ever been a painter if he hadnt
suffered
mental illness? Van Gogh did not paint during his spells of mental or
physical
illness. Well my FIL and MIL are both fabulous artists and he was happy and
mentally
balanced and PRODUCTIVE for his entire life. She was depressed and
unproductive
until treatment which unleashed her productivity and she is still going
strong at
80+.

There is nothing 'romantic' about suffering with mental or physical illness.

The point is to fix the genetic problem, not simply flush the egg. I am sure
a well
and healthy Steven Hawkins would be much productive over a much longer life
span. Not
that they know what causes LG yet much less fix it.

Ingrid

On Sun, 10 May 2009 11:32:27 -0400, Bill wrote:
Scares me as who decides the military or some corporation with the
good of mankind on the agenda ? I believe our best attributes can come
from duress . Got pain fix it or try . I consider this as medicated
leprosy. AKA Death.

Bill who wonders if Steven Hawkins would make the cut.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
wrote:

There is this misconception that agony or mental illness is the mother of
invention
or creativity or "drive". Would Van Gogh ever been a painter if he hadnt
suffered
mental illness? Van Gogh did not paint during his spells of mental or
physical
illness. Well my FIL and MIL are both fabulous artists and he was happy and
mentally
balanced and PRODUCTIVE for his entire life. She was depressed and
unproductive
until treatment which unleashed her productivity and she is still going
strong at
80+.

There is nothing 'romantic' about suffering with mental or physical illness.

The point is to fix the genetic problem, not simply flush the egg. I am sure
a well
and healthy Steven Hawkins would be much productive over a much longer life
span. Not
that they know what causes LG yet much less fix it.

Ingrid

On Sun, 10 May 2009 11:32:27 -0400, Bill wrote:
Scares me as who decides the military or some corporation with the
good of mankind on the agenda ? I believe our best attributes can come
from duress . Got pain fix it or try . I consider this as medicated
leprosy. AKA Death.

Bill who wonders if Steven Hawkins would make the cut.
Somewhere between zone 5 and 6 tucked along the shore of Lake Michigan
on the council grounds of the Fox, Mascouten, Potawatomi, and Winnebago

Worth a view .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVsLe-44L_8

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)

On May 6, 10:25*pm, wrote:
On May 6, 5:20*pm, Kate_G wrote:





"Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) told CNSNews.com Thursday that, if it
were up to him, Americans would be completely free to smoke marijuana
and gamble on the Internet -- but they shouldn’t be allowed “total
freedom” in their financial decisions because those risky decisions
might adversely affect others."

Thank God it's not up to YOU Barney.

He flubbed his attempt at balancing the stock market and we have the
worst recession since 1929. Now this teabagging loser wants to
legalize online gambling??? Just saw on the news that there is to be a
rush to legalize Pot. *A real bonanza for new taxes.

*And then Barney can get his sissy boyfriends high before he
sodomizes *them.

"We’ve got anonymity, we’ve got secrecy, we’ve got availability 24-7”
in online gambling, Hills said. “I liken it to somebody with an
alcohol addiction coming home every night and the fridge being full of
beer, wine and vodka"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...PYYldTa0Q&refe...

pot and gambling should be legalized, you moron, prohibition never
worked and never will and will raise alot of money for the country you
Moron Jesus ****er

“Laws difficult to be executed cannot generally be
good.” – Paine, Rights of Man

On May 6, 11:16*pm, --D-y wrote:
On May 6, 7:20*pm, Kate_G wrote:





"Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) told CNSNews.com Thursday that, if it
were up to him, Americans would be completely free to smoke marijuana
and gamble on the Internet -- but they shouldn’t be allowed “total
freedom” in their financial decisions because those risky decisions
might adversely affect others."

Thank God it's not up to YOU Barney.

He flubbed his attempt at balancing the stock market and we have the
worst recession since 1929. Now this teabagging loser wants to
legalize online gambling??? Just saw on the news that there is to be a
rush to legalize Pot. *A real bonanza for new taxes.

*And then Barney can get his sissy boyfriends high before he
sodomizes *them.

"We’ve got anonymity, we’ve got secrecy, we’ve got availability 24-7”
in online gambling, Hills said. “I liken it to somebody with an
alcohol addiction coming home every night and the fridge being full of
beer, wine and vodka"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...PYYldTa0Q&refe...

Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world.

Jesus loves the white male foetuses,
White male foetuses of the world,
White or male,
Male or white,
Either one is quite all right,
Jesus loves the white male foetuses of the world.

In article
,
Father Haskell wrote:

On May 6, 11:16*pm, --D-y wrote:
On May 6, 7:20*pm, Kate_G wrote:





"Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.) told CNSNews.com Thursday that, if it
were up to him, Americans would be completely free to smoke marijuana
and gamble on the Internet -- but they shouldn¹t be allowed ³total
freedom² in their financial decisions because those risky decisions
might adversely affect others."

Thank God it's not up to YOU Barney.

He flubbed his attempt at balancing the stock market and we have the
worst recession since 1929. Now this teabagging loser wants to
legalize online gambling??? Just saw on the news that there is to be a
rush to legalize Pot. *A real bonanza for new taxes.

*And then Barney can get his sissy boyfriends high before he
sodomizes *them.

"We¹ve got anonymity, we¹ve got secrecy, we¹ve got availability 24-7²
in online gambling, Hills said. ³I liken it to somebody with an
alcohol addiction coming home every night and the fridge being full of
beer, wine and vodka"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...PYYldTa0Q&refe...

Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world.

Jesus loves the white male foetuses,
White male foetuses of the world,
White or male,
Male or white,
Either one is quite all right,
Jesus loves the white male foetuses of the world.

Just no words to express my satisfaction with your feeding the trolls.
If you want to start a fight in another news group, go there and leave
us out of it?
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En2TzBE0lp4

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050688.html

In article
,
Father Haskell wrote:

³Laws difficult to be executed cannot generally be
good.² * Paine, Rights of Man

And we thank you for that benediction, but could you please trim the
damn newsgroups?
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En2TzBE0lp4

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050688.html