On 12/06/2014 3:43 PM, Todd wrote:
On 06/11/2014 09:48 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:


Can you be more specific. Which fats do you say should be grown?

Any kind that doesn't come from a test tube.


As for calories. Eat an avocado!

And how do you propose that anyone grows avacodoes in cereal producing
country?

Grow cows. I love to eat cows too. What a silly argument.

You can't grow Paleo beef in cereal country. Paleo beef is grass fed
beef.

Grass does not grow in sufficient quantities in cereal growing country
to feed beef. Beef that is raised in cereal growing country is all feed
lot, grain fed beef. Paleos don't eat grain fed beef because it's not
true to the Paleo way of eating.

And yes, it IS indeed a silly argument because you don't know what is
involved or the practicalities of what you are advocating.


And where is the fat coming form? Specifically.

Anywhere natural. Cows, avocados, coconuts, etc.. This isn't
rocket science.

Fluffy answer.

Jesus wept! Why on earth would you think David might have a Mexican
grocery store near him?

Hmmmmmm.. Maybe because he is from the Peoples Republic
of California. (I may have him mixed up with Higgs.)

You do have mixed him up with Higgs or with David Ross.

You don't know much about California or the United States.
Mexico is our neighbor.

LOL.

I've seen at least a thousand US TV shows dating from as far back as the
1950s where cowboys or Indians or Mexican banditos or Texan Ranchers or
outlaws or Mexican illegals or posses crossed the Rio Grande!

And of course I do know a bit about American literature. Perhaps you've
heard of Cormac MaCarthy's Border trilogy? I believe that at least one
movie arose from those wonderful books.

I assume you do know that these books were set in Mexico and Texas? The
Mexico that sits to the South of Texas, USA?

Nevada and California have little
Mexican Grocery stores all over the place. The rest of the
country in varying degrees too.

Gosh! I couldn't guess that from your comment that David might have a
Mexican grocery nearby or from the million US TV shows I've
seen........................

What do you say can replace grain? Be specific
and if you don't know then say so because platitudes don't cut it.

Do you ever go to a grocery store? Just look in the
produce section. Would you like a specific list of what
I eat?

By the way, I eat ZERO grains. They will first maim me then
kill me. And I am just fine.

Feed the grains and the rest of the plant to cows. I will eat
the cows!

Don't you know that Paleos are not supposed to eat grain fed beef?

Grain fed beef is a late 20th century invention. Paleolithic man never,
ever, fed beef with grain.

On 12/06/2014 2:45 PM, Todd wrote:
On 06/11/2014 09:15 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
I just don't see it. That same farm land can grow other crops.

No it can't. Country where wheat and sheep are produced cannot grow
vegetables. Our land, where we currently produce beef cattle, could not
grow vegetables. We also cannot grow grapes successfully either.

It's all abbut the class of land (which relates to the quality of the
land) and rainfall/water. The former is not high quality enough for the
production of vegetables and the latter is just plain old deficient.

Hi Fran,

You are correct. And, I also think you misunderstand me.

What I meant was that where wheat is grown, other
crops can be substituted.

Wheat country is dry country. Grain grows well in that country which is
why it is grown there. Other crops can be grown there but they need
irrigation and that is not an option in so many grain growing areas.

Depends on consumer demand.
Wheat farmer don't make squat off of wheat. Who grows
wheat in the desert anyway? That is for livestock.

The only person to mention growing wheat in the desert is you. Wheat
grows in dry country but I've never heard of anyone growing wheat in a
desert.

By the way, you can grow hemp on the same land as
wheat with half the water and apparently, if you listen
to their advocates, make twice the money per acre.

Not according to the NSW Department of Primary Industry:
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...or-nsw.pdf.pdf

Hemp needs irrigation but wheat does not in NSW. Also the wheat growing
areas would be too hot for hemp to be grown successfully.

Where sheep and cattle are typically raised (my Nevada
for example), the ground is only capable of producing
cellulose (grass). The livestock then converts it
into food for us.

But not always, you aught to try some of Fallon's
cantaloupes. Grown right in the middle of the desert.
(No doubt livestock scat has a great deal to do with
it.)

In California's central valley (over the hill from
us, the land of fruits and nuts -- I wonder if Higgs
will catch that), they have all kinds of vegetables,
wheat, etc., all mixed together.

On full circle farms, the do grow cows, sheep,
turkeys, chickens, vegetables, and grass. But,
that is on land with more water than our desert.

By the way, Fallon is about and hour and half
drive away. None of us here can grow a cantaloupe
for our lives! Life is cruel that way.

-T

Thank you by the way. Ranching in very difficult
work and you don't get paid squat for it. Grass
fed too! I have a lot of admiration for what you do.

Speaking of Fallon, Mori-Lahatton runs a ranch
and his own butcher house. Grass fed only. He
says he only gets 2 lbs a day versus 3 lbs a
day with the chemicals. His cows are allowed to
walk around and are not penned up where they can
only lift theirs head up and down to eat.

He hangs his beef the old fashioned way. Tastes
so good, you would not think it was the same
animal as in the grocery store! And he and
his whole family work the butt off.

On 12/06/2014 3:05 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Wednesday, June 11, 2014 9:57:25 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:
On 12/06/2014 3:39 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 10:45:24 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:





Don't you have any sidewalks in your suburb?



Not in suburb. Very small city on the Pacific(Santa Monica) right next to very big city, Los Angeles. Yeah, we have sidewalks, traffic lights; the whole enchilada. But plenty of places to walk, esp. the sea cliff Promenade.



(In some huge LA shopping malls, people -- women? older -- have regular walking groups. Partly social, I would assume? But in this nice climate, why walk indoors?)



In my tiny city we have overbuilding, courtesy of idiot contingent on City Council, resulting in even more traffic, also from people coming in from outside to work in high tech, medical, other (it's a desirable area). I'll often walk downtown or if backpack overloaded,take the bus,just not to deal with parking.



You asked about sidewalks. One street in ritziest part of town, has no sidewalks! I kid you not! Those fortunate souls need never be crude pedestrians. I vaguely understand that in the next county the car-oriented, sterile fortress suburbs often have only driveways; no sidewalks



You are correct in that one can fit in a 10-15 min. fast walk as you described; just takes determination. I go forth inspired!



LOL. Glad to hear that you are inspired :-)) I went for a walk this am

with a group of women and a bunch of dogs. I took my dog but left him

in the car as he gets anxious if expected to walk in unknown territory.

We mostly walked in the middle of the road even though there were

footpaths - it's great where I live as a couple of cars during the day

is a traffic jam. After my walk, I left my car where it was and went to

check out a house that may be coming on the market (we're thinking that

we need to downsize soonish) and then I walked on to the library. I was

glad that I had my backpack as I'd gone to pick up only 1 book I had

ordered in on interlibrary loan and left with about 8 more books - a

couple of really interesting looking gardening books amongst them.



Now you've got me wondering about one of my favourite rollicking yarn

type authors - I can't recall if she wrote abut Santa Monica or some

other west coastal area.



Just did a google - it was Santa Teresa she writes about.

I'm not sure there IS such a place. What is author's name?

Sorry Higgs, brain fart on my part there as I wasn't very clear. The
character lives in Santa Teresa but the real life place is (supposedly)
Santa Barbara. The author is Sue Grafton and she writes what is called
'the alphabet series' ('A' is Alibi etc, etc through many books
beginning with each letter of the alphabet). They are rollicking yarns
- not particularly well written but funny and women in particular seem
to enjoy them because the main character is a semi competent female PI
who gets in a mess frequently.

In article
Todd writes:

Replace those calories with fat. It is the idea fuel
for humans. And more calories per weight than carbs.
Plus, no Diabetes. Hybridize the high carb foods
for fat. Not addictive either, so there will be special
interests and corrupt government agencies kicking
and scratching not to do it.

Sure, they could switch crops, but lacking a mandate why would they?
People like wheat. People will buy wheat. The farmers could switch
over to amaranth and probably get a good yield. And the market
will say, "What's this shit?" Then go to the next farmer and buy
wheat.

Farms (as opposed to agrobusiness operations) are cash strapped as
it is. They can't afford to switch from high value crops to low
value crops. And agrobusiness will follow the profit no matter
what.

Create the demand, and then we'll talk.


By the way, "Starvation" is one of the methods "the most"
brutal empire in the history of the world used to
subjugate the populace (the Soviet Union). Mainly so they
could not fight back. So, your war argument doesn't hold.
Starving people don't go to war -- they can't.

Tell that to Tzar Nicholas.


--
Drew Lawson | "Look! A big distracting thing!"
| -- Crow T. Robot.
|

In article
Fran Farmer writes:
On 12/06/2014 6:33 AM, Todd wrote:

Think of this, the California wine industry has almost
completely switched to organic techniques. The reason being
that the entire vineyard is consistent, one end to the other.
They no longer have one end that is more sour than the
other, etc.. And, they get a higher yield. Cheaper
too.

So basically, if we are to feed more people, this is an
idea that is coming. It is a matter of practicality, not
idealism.

That paragraph makes no sense.

He seems to believe that some recent (alleged) trend in growing
grapes is going to revolutionize crop yields.

I assume that he is ignorant of the factors that brought the increases
since WW2: industrial farming, ammonium nitrate and monocrop
megafarms (mostly crowing the "carbs" he rails against).

I'm not a great fan of the current state of food production, but I
recognize that it is a current necesity. Most current starvation
is caused by economic/political factors. Reverting the methods of
production would bring starvation caused by actual lack of food.

--
Drew Lawson While they all shake hands
and draw their lines in the sand
and forget about the mess they've made

In article
Todd writes:
On 06/11/2014 09:48 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:


Can you be more specific. Which fats do you say should be grown?

Any kind that doesn't come from a test tube.

Interesting response from someone who advicates more hybridization
of our food crops.

As for calories. Eat an avocado!

And how do you propose that anyone grows avacodoes in cereal producing
country?

Grow cows. I love to eat cows too. What a silly argument.

Perhaps you can show me a cite for a means to raise cattle that
produces anywhere the same calories/acre that grain does. Without
that, your proposal still reduces the effective food supply.


And where is the fat coming form? Specifically.

Anywhere natural. Cows, avocados, coconuts, etc.. This isn't
rocket science.

Cows can be frost tollerant, at least. Do you have any other
suggestions that can work in North Dakota or Alberta? High fat
crops have a tendency to be tropical. One exception is nuts, which
won't work for the increasing segment with nut allergies. The other
exceptions are grains (source of most vegetable oils), which you
denounce.


Jesus wept! Why on earth would you think David might have a Mexican
grocery store near him?

Hmmmmmm.. Maybe because he is from the Peoples Republic
of California. (I may have him mixed up with Higgs.)

I thought he was in Oz, though I have trouble keeping track of
things like that.

What do you say can replace grain? Be specific
and if you don't know then say so because platitudes don't cut it.

Do you ever go to a grocery store? Just look in the
produce section. Would you like a specific list of what
I eat?

*You* are proposing that non-grain produce can replace grains, with
equal food value, using the same crop land, as a global practice.
I don't see it as unfair to ask you to specify which crops have
this potential.

By the way, I eat ZERO grains. They will first maim me then
kill me. And I am just fine.

Feed the grains and the rest of the plant to cows. I will eat
the cows!

-T


--
Drew Lawson I had planned to be dead by now, but
the schedule slipped, they do that.
-- Casady

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 17:32:50 -0400
songbird wrote:

Drew Lawson wrote:
...
Accepting wikipedia's numbers for the sake of debate, New York City
(proper) has an area of 304.8 square miles and a population of
8,405,837. According to my calculator, that works out to about
1010 square feet per person. Take out the space used by roads,
walkways, parks and non-flattop buildings. How well do you think
they will eat if they put in a few hours each, but you take away
the farm influx?

why is it valid to say there will be no
farm inflow from the surrounding area?

if it doesn't happen that we can transport
food into large cities then for sure people
will be moving out. there are vast areas of
the surrounds that could be used again for
mixed agriculture. they are fallow in large
part now because most people are happy with
processed packaged chemfoods (derived from
corn, soy, wheat and rice).


And at ~27k/sqmi, NYC doesn't even come close to getting on wikipedia's
list of top sities by population density. Looks like Manila works
out to about 250 sqft/person.

What you say can be done, but it cannot be done for the current
global population.

assuming people stay in place. as you probably
know, when shit hits the fan, people start to
migrate. when the sea levels increase we'll
already have huge movements of people and will be
forced to rebuild large chunks of infrastructure,
wouldn't it be great if we actually built them
with sustainability, efficiency and better land
use policies for people who will walk, garden
and have green spaces?


songbird

Using wiki as the source...

Total world land mass is estimated to be 57,505,693.767 sq mi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land

and the total world population is estimated at 7.169 billion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

So using some math, correctly I hope:

57505693.767 / 7169000000 = 0.00802143866187752825 sq miles

0.0080214 sq miles = 5.256939 acres per person.

And that is counting all land mass, some which would be hard to inhabit
if at all. It just won't work, too many people...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

On 06/12/2014 12:16 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:
Don't you know that Paleos are not supposed to eat grain fed beef?

Grain fed beef is a late 20th century invention. Paleolithic man never,
ever, fed beef with grain.

Hi Fran,

Actually, I don't know that. I follow Mark Sisson
Mr. Paleo himself and a fellow diabetic):

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/

And Steve Cooksey (another fellow diabetic):

http://www.diabetes-warrior.net/

Neither one these guys go into that. You are
just suppose to approximate and not obsess on it.
See Mark's comments below.

And, just feed the cows the whole plant. Feeding them straight
grain gives them ulcers. And no one is suppose to eat
sick animals. That is what vultures and ants (carrion
eaters) are for.

You are making this way harder than it has to be.
Anywhere you can raise wheat, you can also raise
grass. I presume that is how you do it on your ranch.

Here is a great reference from Mark Sisson (Mr. Paleo
himself) on grass fed versus grain fed beef:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-d...rain-fed-beef/

My favorite part is:

I, ahem, want to eat delicious animals and buying
delicious animals promotes their production

And:
For me, the clearly superior version of beef comes
from the grass-fed and –finished cows raised by
ranchers committed to providing excellent stewardship
of both soil and cattle. Next, cows that have been
grass-fed, pastured, and grain-finished by similarly
committed producers with similarly maintained soil quality.

After that? Just eat beef. Whatever you can get on a
regular basis. Grab the occasional grass-fed cut when
you can, see how it tastes, and figure out if it’s
worth it to you.

I would be curious, if you actually read the article
(you don't have to), if, from your experience as a
producer of grass fed beef, if you disagree with any
of his comments.

-T

On 06/12/2014 09:55 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Can you be more specific. Which fats do you say should be grown?

Any kind that doesn't come from a test tube.

Interesting response from someone who advicates more hybridization
of our food crops.

You are not following. All produce we eat has been
hybridized for one thing or another.

When I say "test tube", I mean synthetic. Not found
in nature.

I also include in that "gene splicing" (a.k.a GMO).
When you hybridize a plant, you are doing it the
old fashioned way. Not splicing genes from a weasel
onto a dove.


Grow cows. I love to eat cows too. What a silly argument.

Perhaps you can show me a cite for a means to raise cattle that
produces anywhere the same calories/acre that grain does. Without
that, your proposal still reduces the effective food supply.

You missed the point. On soil that won't grow anything
else other than cellulose (grass), grow cows (livestock)
on it. Use the good soil to grow other stuff.

Every summer out here in Nevada, since the Fed took over
managing it from the ranchers, we have range land fires.
Some of the localities bring in sheep to mow the
cheat grass off the hill sides to help prevent these
fires. AND YOU GET TO EAT THEM AFTERWARDS! It is
a good use of land that would not otherwise grow
anything edible. (Lamb -- YUK! Okay, other gets to
eat them.)

-T

In article
Todd writes:
On 06/12/2014 09:55 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Grow cows. I love to eat cows too. What a silly argument.

Perhaps you can show me a cite for a means to raise cattle that
produces anywhere the same calories/acre that grain does. Without
that, your proposal still reduces the effective food supply.

You missed the point. On soil that won't grow anything
else other than cellulose (grass), grow cows (livestock)
on it. Use the good soil to grow other stuff.

When you switch that land from growing grain to grazing cattle, you
reduce the yield in terms of calories/acre. The world still has
billions of people to feed, and you have just reduced the food
supply. Where do you make up that deficit?

I much prefer steak to bread, but I'm not as comfortable as you
appear to be with suggesting that we willfully require others to
starve.

Remember, this whole subthread started with you saying that we
should stop farming grain, and David asking how you suggest feeding
the 7 billion humans without grain. You have yet to address that
question.

I'm happy for you that you like your new diet and lifestyle.
However, that does not address the question.

--
Drew Lawson | Savage bed foot-warmer
| of purest feline ancestry
| Look out little furry folk
| it's the all-night working cat

On 06/11/2014 11:24 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:
By the way, thank you for the Australian doctor
who went up against the special interests and
got ulcers treated as an infection.

You should have heard the name calling from the
medical community! They made a lot of money off
of treating but not healing ulcers. But the guy
persevered and we now can finally treat ulcers.
(Herbalists always could, but they are just
"wack jobs" you know.)

And another conspiracy theory.

Same thing is going on here with T2. We need
an Australian doctor to come here and set
the special interests right again.

You'd probably not like most Aussie Doctors. They'd tell you to get
real and stop seeing conspiracies everywhere.


Hi Fran,

I looked up the Aussie doctor: Dr. Barry J. Marshal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Marshall

Thank goodness he persisted and took on the special
interests. Oh they called him every name in the
book. The special interests went BERSERK! They
stood to lose ton of money (and did -- ha ha).

By the way, reducing acid in your stomach causes
the bacteria that causes ulcers to thrive. Hmmmm.
Let me adjust my aluminum foil hat. Conspiracies
everywhere!

If you do not think this crap goes on all the time in
the medical community, then you are in for a rude
surprise. They are about "treating", not "healing".
I found this out the hard way with Diabetes.

If you think I am wrong, look up the side effects
of statins. My favorite is "statin-induced
rhabdomyolysis", which first cripples you (ruins
your muscles), then maims you (kidney failure),
eventually it kills you.

Now, try to find a single autopsy study that links
serum cholesterol with arteriosclerosis. Give up?
I can show you lots of the opposite.

Luckily, both my ER and GP allopaths do not follow the
cholesterol fraud. Which is good because I can trust
what they say. (I still double check them.) And,
neither one is an Aussie. (Occasionally, American
doctors can think for themselves too.)

By the way, the doctor that found the real cause of
arteriosclerosis (homocystein/inflammation) was Dr.
Kilmer McCully. The medical community persecuted him
so bad he had to go to court just to hold a position
as a coroner! You see, Allopths don't make any money
off the sale of B vitamins, folate in particular.

Is my aluminum foil hat (far more stylish than tin foil
hats) on too tight?

By the way, even paranoid have enemies.

-T

On 06/12/2014 07:27 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:
Sure, they could switch crops, but lacking a mandate why would they?
People like wheat. People will buy wheat. The farmers could switch
over to amaranth and probably get a good yield. And the market
will say, "What's this shit?" Then go to the next farmer and buy
wheat.

Hi Drew,

Excellent point. You are entirely correct.

I say let the market dictate what we buy. We
vote with our dollar for who we want to succeed.

As more and more of us get Diabetes, the demand
will shift. Your odds are now one out of six
you will get diabetes -- perhaps one out of three
in the near future.

Also, the diet industry has discovered that
carbs are what makes you fat. (You **** and
blow out excess keytones [fat]. They are use
or lose.)

So, the market will eventually do its magic. There
will be a lot of kicking and screaming though.

"Healthy carbs", my ass. You should see the crap
those scoundrel's at the American Diabetes Association
wants you to eat -- you'd be diabetic forever!

Carbs are so addictive that I know of one diabetic
man who killed himself rather than stop eating
them. He was eventually crippled to the point
were his wife had to give him his insulin
injections.

I know of another man who has lost both his legs, both
his kidneys (he is on the transplant list), has had
a major heart attack, is on oxygen, and who know what
else. He won't stop eating carbs.

Amaranth is still a grain by the way. Feed all the
the grain producing plants (the whole plant) to
cows. I will eat the cows.

I vote for good tasting produce and meat.

As long as freedom is allowed to prevail, the
market will provide what we demand. I see both
being around for a very long time. If you
are in the five out of six that won't get diabetes,
then by all means, have fun.

-T

On 06/12/2014 12:46 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Todd writes:
On 06/12/2014 09:55 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Grow cows. I love to eat cows too. What a silly argument.

Perhaps you can show me a cite for a means to raise cattle that
produces anywhere the same calories/acre that grain does. Without
that, your proposal still reduces the effective food supply.

You missed the point. On soil that won't grow anything
else other than cellulose (grass), grow cows (livestock)
on it. Use the good soil to grow other stuff.

When you switch that land from growing grain to grazing cattle, you
reduce the yield in terms of calories/acre. The world still has
billions of people to feed, and you have just reduced the food
supply. Where do you make up that deficit?

You are still missing what I said. Were the land won't
support other things, grow grass for livestock. I thought
I was pretty clear on that point. Don't use the good
farm land for livestock!


I much prefer steak to bread, but I'm not as comfortable as you
appear to be with suggesting that we willfully require others to
starve.

Where are you getting that I want people to starve? I don't
want anyone to starve! This is one of those arguments where
the news reporter asks, "So, when was the last time you beat
your wife?"

By the way, I think sustainable crops produce higher yields
on the same real estate. Meaning more food. (Tastes better
too.) And, if argibusiness is not careful, all that land
they are currently using right now will go dead and not
be able to produce anything.

By the way, sustainable farmers take that burned out land
(soil) and nurture it back to health. It takes years.
Songbird can probably fill you in on the details. In the
mean time, the land is not producing.

So, you are in favor of burning out all our soil? Why is
it again that you want people to starve? (Just pointing
out the fallacy of your argument. I know you don't.)



Remember, this whole subthread started with you saying that we
should stop farming grain, and David asking how you suggest feeding
the 7 billion humans without grain. You have yet to address that
question.

My suggestion is that we cut back on the things that
cause T2 Diabetes and substitute them with safer things.

The things I eat work fine. Do you need a list?
You will find them at any grocery store's produce
section. Some you have to go to specialty stores,
like Mexican Supermarkets.

I'm happy for you that you like your new diet and lifestyle.
However, that does not address the question.

I think we need to deliberately try to hybridize towards fat
and away from carbs. In the mean time, you can grow all
kinds of other things on land that wheat grows on. Let a
free and open market dictate what.

In the Philippines, where they are not fat, exercise A LOT,
eat rice, and consequently have a T2 Diabetes problem,
they are trying to transition to a special type of corn.

http://balita.ph/2013/07/29/corn-for...research-prof/

By the way, I asked, and that variety of corn is not available
in the United States.

And, I am not trying to rip that piece of pizza out of your
mouth. I am trying to keep your feet from falling off.
T2 Diabetes will come under control when we get the carbs
back to a natural level.

-T

In article
Todd writes:
On 06/12/2014 12:46 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Remember, this whole subthread started with you saying that we
should stop farming grain, and David asking how you suggest feeding
the 7 billion humans without grain. You have yet to address that
question.

My suggestion is that we cut back on the things that
cause T2 Diabetes and substitute them with safer things.

The things I eat work fine. Do you need a list?
You will find them at any grocery store's produce
section. Some you have to go to specialty stores,
like Mexican Supermarkets.

Sure, a list would be great.
List the foods that will take the place of grain in the global food
system. Remember that grain is essentially non-perishable. It can
be shipped on slow-moving ships, and handle long, unrefrigerated,
transit to where the people are.

If you can't do that, then people will starve.

I'm happy for you that you like your new diet and lifestyle.
However, that does not address the question.

I think we need to deliberately try to hybridize towards fat
and away from carbs. In the mean time, you can grow all
kinds of other things on land that wheat grows on. Let a
free and open market dictate what.

What are these "all kinds" of food? They need to grow in the same
climates as grain, and handle the same soil types and water
requirements. They also need to produce on average the same
calories/acre as grain. Otherwise, you cannot meet the current
food demand, and people will starve.

The market does not decide what will grow where.


In the Philippines, where they are not fat, exercise A LOT,
eat rice, and consequently have a T2 Diabetes problem,
they are trying to transition to a special type of corn.

http://balita.ph/2013/07/29/corn-for...research-prof/

That article says nothing about "a special type of corn," unless
you consider white corn to be special. The article is about switching
from rice to corn.

By the way, I asked, and that variety of corn is not available
in the United States.

Asked who? Which variety?

--
Drew Lawson I had planned to be dead by now, but
the schedule slipped, they do that.
-- Casady

On 06/12/2014 02:07 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
Todd writes:
On 06/12/2014 12:46 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Remember, this whole subthread started with you saying that we
should stop farming grain, and David asking how you suggest feeding
the 7 billion humans without grain. You have yet to address that
question.

My suggestion is that we cut back on the things that
cause T2 Diabetes and substitute them with safer things.

The things I eat work fine. Do you need a list?
You will find them at any grocery store's produce
section. Some you have to go to specialty stores,
like Mexican Supermarkets.

Sure, a list would be great.

Off the top of my head: tomatoes (love the heirlooms),
avocados, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, asparagus,
broccoli, pruslane, summer squash (zukes), eggplant,
jicama, nopalas, peppers (all kinds), blueberries,
raspberries, boysenberries (if I can find them),
lemons, onions, garlic, shallots. Probably more.

I am trying to grow tomantillos. (I probably misspelled
half of the above.)

List the foods that will take the place of grain in the global food
system. Remember that grain is essentially non-perishable. It can
be shipped on slow-moving ships, and handle long, unrefrigerated,
transit to where the people are.

If you can't do that, then people will starve.

Hi Drew,

Googling that is like googling the word "it". Tons
of hits on how to grow wheat, including in your own
back yard. Not to waste too much time on it, I found
various links. They are not real good, so I wouldn't
spend too much time on them, if at all:

http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/croprotation/
http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Tutorials/Wheat_farming
http://www.organicgrains.ncsu.edu/al...graincrops.htm
http://southwestfarmpress.com/grains...ternative-crop

I am sure there are a lot of others hidden under how to grow wheat,
whose hits are in the hundreds.

We grow onions for seed out here and are starting to
grow garlic. Not sure if it is for seed. You could easily
use that land for something else. Wonderful smell when
you drive by those fields. They could grow wheat too,
but then they'd probably go broke.

Let the market decide what is grown. Wheat allergies
are becoming more of a pain in the ass for a lot of people,
not just celiacs. And they are finding it is not only
the glutin, but wheat in general.

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-...n-non-celiacs/

Have you ever heard of crop rotation? If only wheat could grow
on that land, how would you rotate? I mainly base my opinion
on just looking over the fruited plains. All kinds of stuff
mixed in with the wheat. Also, sustainable farmers take
these burned out wheat fields and grow lots of other stuff
on them.


I'm happy for you that you like your new diet and lifestyle.
However, that does not address the question.

I think we need to deliberately try to hybridize towards fat
and away from carbs. In the mean time, you can grow all
kinds of other things on land that wheat grows on. Let a
free and open market dictate what.

What are these "all kinds" of food? They need to grow in the same
climates as grain, and handle the same soil types and water
requirements. They also need to produce on average the same
calories/acre as grain. Otherwise, you cannot meet the current
food demand, and people will starve.

The market does not decide what will grow where.

You grow what you can sell. So, I have to disagree
to an extent. There are obvious limitations of
what you can grow where. But very few soils can
only grow one thing. There is no such thing as
soil that can only grow wheat.



In the Philippines, where they are not fat, exercise A LOT,
eat rice, and consequently have a T2 Diabetes problem,
they are trying to transition to a special type of corn.

http://balita.ph/2013/07/29/corn-for...research-prof/

That article says nothing about "a special type of corn," unless
you consider white corn to be special. The article is about switching
from rice to corn.

By the way, I asked, and that variety of corn is not available
in the United States.

Asked who? Which variety?


I researched it months ago. I came up with the type of corn
they wanted to switch to and called a few seed companies.
I think Burpee was one, but I don't recall. Talked to some
very nice people. Sorry for the lack of information. If
you are interesting in growing the stuff, I am sure you
could probably figure it out too.

Burpee's sweet corns taste like candy they are so sweet.
I mean the ones I grew years ago were so, so sweet!
I think most of Burpee's emphasis is on those varieties
(Diabetes be damned).

-T