On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:50:14 GMT, Me wrote:


In article ,
Gunner wrote:

Sorry Bubba, but like firearms, nuclear weapons and oral sex, the
genie is out of the bottle. Even after a Collapse..the Net will be one
of the first things to become reimplimented. In one fashion or
another.

If you only had a clue as to what you were talking about you would be
classed a bit higher than "Moroon". In an American Collapse Senerio,
the Internet would far down the list of things rebuilt.

First, Power would need to be available coutry wide and in mostly the
"Big Cities" for the Routers that make the Internet work ti operate.
Second, more than 75% of the links are FiberOptic these days and the
MUltiplexers and Switches would also have to have power, which isn't
going to be around country wide after a collapse. same with the cable-Tv
and DSL/Phone systems. Just who is going to run the Dams & Nuke Plants
to provide all this power nation wide?

another bainless thought.

me

Like a lot of the folks on this group, he just can't really believe that
the only way of life he's ever known can cease to be.

Almost everyone here is preparing for a temporary breakdown and will be
purely stray, and armed and desperate, when they learn otherwise.

And they aren't taking into account groups like mine, which intend to make
double-damned-sure this civilization stays dead.

Not that there is anything wrong with technology per se, but the main thrust
behind technology is the need to sell more and more stuff, not any real
benefit to the world, and often quite the contrary.

The other mis-guided (and mis-guiding) faction here are the ones that think
they are going to live like the pioneers.

Wrong. There are far more people and way fewer unspoiled lands than there were
then.

I call these factions the Campers, and the Davey Crocketts.


The people who survive will be gardeners/gatherers and handcrafters. They will
know their plants and how to turn them into clothing and heat and light and food
and paper and medicine and shelter and chemicals.


AC

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:50:14 GMT, Me wrote:


In article ,
Gunner wrote:

Sorry Bubba, but like firearms, nuclear weapons and oral sex, the
genie is out of the bottle. Even after a Collapse..the Net will be one
of the first things to become reimplimented. In one fashion or
another.

If you only had a clue as to what you were talking about you would be
classed a bit higher than "Moroon". In an American Collapse Senerio,
the Internet would far down the list of things rebuilt.

First, Power would need to be available coutry wide and in mostly the
"Big Cities" for the Routers that make the Internet work ti operate.
Second, more than 75% of the links are FiberOptic these days and the
MUltiplexers and Switches would also have to have power, which isn't
going to be around country wide after a collapse. same with the cable-Tv
and DSL/Phone systems. Just who is going to run the Dams & Nuke Plants
to provide all this power nation wide?

another bainless thought.

me

Like a lot of the folks on this group, he just can't really believe that
the only way of life he's ever known can cease to be.

Almost everyone here is preparing for a temporary breakdown and will be
purely stray, and armed and desperate, when they learn otherwise.

And they aren't taking into account groups like mine, which intend to make
double-damned-sure this civilization stays dead.

Not that there is anything wrong with technology per se, but the main thrust
behind technology is the need to sell more and more stuff, not any real
benefit to the world, and often quite the contrary.

The other mis-guided (and mis-guiding) faction here are the ones that think
they are going to live like the pioneers.

Wrong. There are far more people and way fewer unspoiled lands than there were
then.

I call these factions the Campers, and the Davey Crocketts.


The people who survive will be gardeners/gatherers and handcrafters. They will
know their plants and how to turn them into clothing and heat and light and food
and paper and medicine and shelter and chemicals.


AC

RE/
groups like mine,

Does your group have a leader?
--
PeteCresswell

RE/
groups like mine,

Does your group have a leader?
--
PeteCresswell

See the other post, Okay?

What other post?

Once the Grid, the Industrial Infrastructure, which is a house of cards
at best, collapses, that's it.

If you aren't prepared to live without it, you won't last long.


AC

Why don't you get started now and sit there in your lean-to up on the
mountain, all the while laughing at us poor moron's who just don't get it?

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:03:09 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

Wireless, radio, sat, etc etc. Unless its an asteroid strike..the
underground cables and much of the infrastructure will remain.
Communications is a requirement for survival. Large scale
communications is manditory. Be it homing pigeon, or 300 baud packet
radio. Unless every techy is killed outright, folks will adapt,
improvise and over come. The NET is too important a resource to leave
idle. Spare parts are in abundance. Any idea of how much adaptable
surplus stuff is languishing in warehouses all over the US? Millions
of Tons of the stuff. Mega millions of tons.

Electricity is easy to generate, on the grand scale of things. It will
be perhaps local, but it will be generated. The survivors will demand
it and require it. Will there be an ISP in virtually every enclave? It
could well indeed happen., And from a survival stand point is very
desireable. Learning, teaching, planning, reading, negotiating, etc
etc.

If it were some really catastrophic collapse, much of the net as we
know it might well go down the dumps for at least a while.

Kinda hard to imagine it all taking a dump, however.

I could well see, in a major catastrophic collapse where areas might
be off the net as we know it. And the net might well get fragmented.

However, I'm thinking that assorted workarounds would pop up.

I can generate the power for it, for instance, to run radio packet.
And have the equipment.

And, while more and more major trunks are fiber optic. For less
ambitious and more local computer comms, there is still plenty of
copper wire strung. It'd not be at all undoable to rig up at least a
fairly local network. Say, covering a neighborhood, or small town.

Certain plenty of the necessary hardware still around.

Perhaps one could radio link one neighborhood or small town to
another. Then to the next. And so forth.

Shrug It'd have nowhere near the abilities of the modern net. It's
be slow. And it'd take time to move any sizeable data from here to
there.

But, what the heck? I can remember the days when I was thrilled and
had a lot of fun transferring text messages, data, info files,
pictures and such over old fashioned copper phone lines using a 300
baud modem. And ran my own BBS. Only had 5 lines in, so people had to
sort of take turns and keep trying til they could log in after someone
else dropped off the line.

And I was signed up with a bunch of other BBSs and we used to swap and
exchange files. Everything from repeating and passing on the chat of
those involved in various discussion groups (sort of like the modern
usenet), to emails from one person to another, to program files, to
data files with info on almost any subject under the sun,
instructional files, hardware how-to's, lots of amatuer radio related
data, and of course, the obligatory suitably nude photoes of ladies.

Most of the BBSs had some specialty or another. Usually carried a
variety, but would have some directories with specialized data of one
sort or another. Those who did a lot of BBSs learned which one was
the most likely to have the data on firearms, which had more cooking
recipes than you ever imagined to exist, which had a bunch of amatuer
electronics information files, etc. (Used to be one out of the Whites
Sands research center that was pretty good if one liked pictures. One
of the female employees down there did not mind in the least having
her picture taken, then digitized and spread around.)

Chuckle, I have CDs burned with complete sets of old DOS programs,
utilities, applications, DOS itself, and terminal and BBS software.
And have stashed away 3 old but working computers perfectly capable of
running DOS, BBS software, etc. And a box of maybe 8 spare
harddrives, another box with 5 or 6 old but working modems, couple old
Conner tape drives, NICs, etc. And know others who still have a pile
of old but working stuff hanging around. (I also have CDs burned with
copies of Win 3.11, W95, W98, and a large assortment of software to
run under those systems. Including network server software.)

For that matter, now that I'm thinking of it. I have the stuff and
could easy lay my hands up a large pile of it as it's still made and
used, to run an RS485 network link up to 4000 ft at a shot without a
repeater. Driven by a device that uses precious little power (Max of
24 watts, 12 VDC supply). Limited to 19200 baud tho. Can technically
go faster, but gets glitchy at those distances if yah drive it faster.
Common device and system for communicating between machinery digital
controllers, fetching info from remote sensors, etc.

Possibilities are just about endless. I was just naming off stuff I
can lay hands on directly in my own home.

Sizeable number of folks with the right skills among them, you could
do a heck of a lot. There would be a lot of hardware around. Yah
just need to locate and collect the technicians and engineers that
actually know how stuff works, instead of the button pushers.

There would be a demand and want. If for no other reason that friends
and relative wanting to contact each other and send messages. Add
scenarios such as folks a location A wanting to know info they don't
have, but somebody at point B does know the info. One would like a
way to get it from here to there. Even if paper were short, or no ink
for a printer (til someone figured out a way to refill cartridge).
Yah could scan in a picture at one end and send to to someone. Who
could look at it on a screen, read and memorize; or scratch a rough
copy and notes on whatever was available for reference.

There is a very good reason that years ago, long before desk top
computers, fax machines were found to be very handy items. Sometimes
a picture, even a bad one, can be worth it's weight in gold.
Especially if you're trying to figure something out, or fix something,
and the person who has the info you need is a long way away.

Just some thoughts.

Bob

In article et,
says...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:02:33 GMT, Gunner wrote:

neighbors and friends?

alanc is obsessed with the idea of running for the hills and living
off the land. In fact he's claimed that's what he and an unspecified
group have already done, setting up a defensive parameter that
includes boobytraps and poison gas generators, as well as trying

No booby-traps, per se, and no poison gas generators.

Or perhaps you'd like to post the article where I said that?

I thought not.

alanc...

Never

Ever

argue facts with me. My interpretation of those facts, yes.
My sanity, sure. Opinions, of course. Other facts I may not
be aware of, glad to have them revealed to me. But I seldom say
things I am not sure of. See beheath your signature below for
the posts I am referring to. Carbon monoxide IS a poisonous gas.

And I also still say that, to drop a hunter in the open like
you said you did, you'd need a gas release on the level of
Bhorpal. You either were not speaking the truth, or your
truth is not based in reality, or there were things going on
you did not mention.

to drive any neighbors away by poisoning their water and killing their
animals.


Yes. Sort of.


There are doubts as to his sanity...


And no doubts about your integrity. You have none.

Thank you, thank you, always nice to be complimented.

Doubts? Doubts? The dude is a ****ing loon. A Walter Mitty consumed
by the Tarnsman of Gor books. A paranoid with at least 5 alter egos,
most of whom are also ****ing loons.


Gosh. If you said it, it must be true.

We are not sure if he is not GunKid or Mabu the Gagnificicent.
Shrug..but he makes a great punching bag.

Except that you keep missing, of course.

The rest of this nonsense deleted unseen.

And I go back to ignoring your posts.

AC

------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Connor )
Subject: Using Shields instead of Weapons
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Date: 2003-07-01 11:30:43 PST

The gundamentalists are always implying and inferring that if someone
doesn't
have weapons that they may as well just stand motionless in the middle of a
field with a target painted on them.

Guess again. Let's try to take a reasonable look at the issue.

Hunting Deer is fairly simple when they are protected for 3/4 of the year
and even then the WAY that a person can hunt them, and the places they can
hunt them are highly controlled.

Post SHTF, those Deer are going to become very difficult to bag. Real
hunting
skills will be required, and those take years to develop. Plus, you will not
just be able to blast away with a scoped, high-powered rifle because you
will
be just sending up a signal to everyone for miles:

"I'm here and I have a nice weapon and ammo and a nice fresh Deer."


Now.

Let's take a group like mine, who can do everything that the Deer can do to
protect themselves and also throw in stuff like this:

1. Never present themselves as a target from any vantage

2. Erase their tracks and sign

3. Track the hunters and send warnings to their friends

4. Lay false trails (visually, with smells, and with sounds)

5. Destroy the hunter's camp while they are away

6. Set off all sorts of things to make the hunter's task miserable

a. Smoke screens

b. Stink bombs

c. Drugs in acetone (from hardwoods) that will be absorbed through
the skin and cause temporary sickness/disability

d. Noisemakers that will deafen or just startle and send the hunters to
their bellies

e. Harmless missiles raining from the sky

f. Etc.


These can all be done from string-triggered and monitored
booby-traps
or launched mortar style from out of sight, or timed


7. Taint or poison (non-lethal) the hunter's water and food and bedding and
spare clothing (left in camp) without leaving a sign

8. Go to ground in any of numerous, pre-prepared hidey holes with food,
water
sanitation, for days if necessary. Little holes

9. Are LIKE you and can predict most of your moves. That knows technology
and
what it can do. Can hide their nests much better than Deer can because
they
know what you are looking for.

10. Don't let them relax or sleep

11. Etc. None of the above ever put the "deer" in sight of the hunter.
Heehee.


Just for starters, eh?


Imagine how hard Deer hunting would be then.

This is just a taste of what people without weapons can do to neutralize
and run interference on those that would use them to force their will upon
them.

A hunter going after a deer like the above would starve.

The key is to not play war, to not hate or fear and to avoid confrontation
and doing serious harm to anyone.

Just run interference on someone trying to do something wrong.

Don't play their game and use common sense.

A hunter who has been sprayed (vinegar and lime make a great propellent)
with
a vile-smelling solution is going to have to change their cloths and wash
them
and the gear that got it too. They are going to be very uncomfortable and
smell for great distances until they do.

These things are difficult or impossible while playing soldier on the
trail...

Nickel and dime them to death, as the old saying goes.

Guns and other weapons are for losers. You don't have to play that game.

Just swat them away like the annoying bugs they are.

(We've never had anyone try TWICE)

alanc

-----------------------------------------------

From: Alan Connor )
Subject: Alan Connor
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Date: 2003-05-26 10:57:05 PST

In article , Zeke Hardscabble wrote:

On 26-May-2003, Robert Sturgeon wrote:

alanc, in his remote redoubt with his
unarmed hippy friends, mounting 24/7 patrols and fending off the evil
rednecks with... well, with their intelligence and courage, of course!
alanc, the droll troll.

Ah! Do I hear a new mabu-like saga in the making? Fearless alanc in his
public land redoubt, clad in camels hair robe and girded with a canabis
rope, joint hanging carelessly from his slack lips, fearlessly flinging
off
American Thugs off of the commune with his bare hands . . . it boggles the
mind!

Zeke H.


The last moron like you (but he was stupider than you, because he didn't
have
the sense to just blow hot air like you do....) who came out here
found himself suddenly unable to breathe...

A lot of CO will do that to you, and it is very easy to produce.

He dropped his gun in a panic and, after he had recovered, couldn't find his
gun and ran back to the truck that was no longer there. It was never found
again, and when the countymounties came out to talk to us, we had no idea
what
happened...

Yes, that's what all the thugs do when they can't get their way: they run to
the big tit of the law.....

There are all sorts of ways of dealing with thugs with guns, and none of the
sensible ones involve confrontation.

That poor sap never saw a soul....

Do you understand now why the local Americans don't bother us anymore?

Got a hundred tricks like that up our sleeves....


alanc

---------------------------------------------

From: Alan Connor )
Subject: Two bear attacks
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism
Date: 2003-06-28 20:12:20 PST

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:18:24 GMT, Condor Chef
wrote:
"Winston §mith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:45:42 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

strabo, you really have to learn a little bit about the real world and
quit
believing the bozos in this group and hollywood.

A *KNIFE* against a Grizzly! ! !! !! !

ROTFLMAO

Are you suggesting something more deadly? Perhaps {horrors} a gun?

No, AlanC would have cuddled with the cub, and when the sow saw how nicely
they played together, she would have adopted him as one of her own. Then
they could frolic in the forest forever after...


CC

I do spend much of my time frolicing in the forest, although Grizzlies are
rare in these parts. Plenty of Black Bears though, and we get along fine.

I sure wish I could find one of you here that had the guts to do anything
but run your ignorant and juvenile mouths.

I'd be happy to meet any of you anywhere you want and have a little survival
contest.

You can have anything you can carry on your back and I will go naked.

3 months later we will see who is in the best shape and has the nicest digs
and clothes and the biggest store of food for the winter.

But the truth is that most of you couldn't last 2 weeks without a cabin full
of supplies and a chainsaw and a vehicle.

When that stuff is used up or wears out you are dead meat.

So mock if you will, it just makes you look stupider than you already do, if
such a thing is possible.

Now I am going to go frolic in the forest. It's right outside the door. I
know
that you THINK it is YOUR national forest, but it ain't.

We don't allow vehicles, hunting, trapping, or horses/mules etc, anywhere
near
here. American laws do not have any meaning here. WE make the laws and
enforce
them without ever revealing that a human agency is involved.

The hunter follows false trails until he is exhausted. The four-wheeler has
his tires spiked by what looks like an ancient scrap of iron from an old
tool.
The wood-cutter finds the road blocked by a washed-out culvert that was
'accidentally' blocked during the last storm.

heehee.

Mock if you want to, but we have taken back some of the lands you stole from
the Native Americans and the rest of the beings that lived here before you
arrived. And we take more and more every year. In little tiny pieces spread
out
all over the place. But a lot of littles make a big, don't you know.....


alanc killfiles another ignorant bigot


--------------------------------------------------------

From: Alan Connor )
Subject: Story Time - Inspired by AlanC.
Newsgroups: misc.survivalism, alt.survival
Date: 2003-07-05 12:24:44 PST

On Sat, 5 Jul 2003 12:14:35 -0400, Jeffrey Schwartz
wrote:


Although we have, to my knowlegde, never used this tactic on anyone but
our-
selves (we test all such things on ourselves to make sure that they will
do no
serious harm. Acetone must not be used regularly. Repeated doses are
dangerous.) the delivery method most often practiced is via monitored
booby-
traps, using a variety of ways to douse the person(s). One is the old
acid-
base propellents, like vinegar and lime. That is what I described
earlier, I
believe.


Alright, let me make sure I understand what you're saying.

You say vinegar and lime as a propellant, and using the gasses released to
spray acetone from a monitored booby trap?




Yes. A concealed string runs to a vantage point, both to allow the fine
control needed for other 'booby traps' that are potentially dangerous and to
avoid the likelihood of a trip-wire, etc., being seen. In this case a wooden
tube(s) is used to direct the spray. There are, of course, many chemicals
that can be delivered this way. One of them is a mild psychedelic (from
mushrooms) that will make the person pretty much useless for anything for
a day or so, and thus becoming a burden to the group they are with. Others
will make them sick or sleepy or ....

alanc

On 19 Jan 2004 03:25:52 GMT, (Frank White)
wrote:

In article et,
says...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:02:33 GMT, Gunner wrote:
snip
Now.

Let's take a group like mine, who can do everything that the Deer can do to
protect themselves and also throw in stuff like this:

1. Never present themselves as a target from any vantage

2. Erase their tracks and sign

3. Track the hunters and send warnings to their friends

4. Lay false trails (visually, with smells, and with sounds)

5. Destroy the hunter's camp while they are away

6. Set off all sorts of things to make the hunter's task miserable

a. Smoke screens

b. Stink bombs

c. Drugs in acetone (from hardwoods) that will be absorbed through
the skin and cause temporary sickness/disability

d. Noisemakers that will deafen or just startle and send the hunters to
their bellies

e. Harmless missiles raining from the sky

f. Etc.


These can all be done from string-triggered and monitored
booby-traps
or launched mortar style from out of sight, or timed


7. Taint or poison (non-lethal) the hunter's water and food and bedding and
spare clothing (left in camp) without leaving a sign

8. Go to ground in any of numerous, pre-prepared hidey holes with food,
water
sanitation, for days if necessary. Little holes

9. Are LIKE you and can predict most of your moves. That knows technology
and
what it can do. Can hide their nests much better than Deer can because
they
know what you are looking for.

10. Don't let them relax or sleep

11. Etc. None of the above ever put the "deer" in sight of the hunter.
Heehee.


Just for starters, eh?

snip

All of this, yet....

again, and when the countymounties came out to talk to us, we had no idea
what
happened...

The cops were able to walk right up to them and find them with no
trouble what so ever. The cops never questioned their living on
federal land? Never asked to look around? Sure... I believe
it...Not.

kb9wfk

In article . net,
says...

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:02:33 GMT, Gunner wrote:

Who knows?

All I am trying to do is educate people.

I've done that. You can't remove my posts from the server or from
the archives.

All you can do is continue broadcasting your immaturity and ignorance
to the world.

There are very few people on this group that will survive more than a year
after the Collapse, and taking their advice is foolish.

Hm. So which ones of us on this group do you think WILL survive more
than a year after the disaster you foresee?

FW

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:34:57 -0500, "Cricket" wrote:


(snip)
Oh, how embarassing - we actually own a laser sighted Lorcin...hey, it was a
joke (cheapo laser sight, wouldn't mount properly, had to be cobbled on - it
just seemed right somehow...).

On the plus side, I don't eat Twinkies...

No problem. According to the Survival Expert Extraordinaire, GUNkid, all you
need to survive is peanut butter and tang. Of course, in his survival "plan",
that's only for the first week. He plans to become a "lone wolf,
will-o-the-wisp, predator" within a week after TSHTF, heading out to the country
and beginning his predation on survivors. Yep, he's a loonie with delusions of
adequacy too.
(snip)

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 03:28:33 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:
(snip)
(by-the-way, I think

Nope. Wrong. You do NOT think, and therein lies you biggest problem.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:58:31 GMT, Alan Connor prattled:


And they aren't taking into account groups like mine, which intend to make
double-damned-sure this civilization stays dead.


Any intentions your incompetent imaginary group would have are irrelevant, since
any group which would have you as a member couldn't fight its way out of a wet
paper bag.

Not that there is anything wrong with technology per se, but the main thrust
behind technology is the need to sell more and more stuff, not any real
benefit to the world, and often quite the contrary.

Did somebody turn Ted Kazinski loose already?

The other mis-guided (and mis-guiding) faction here are the ones that think
they are going to live like the pioneers.

Not to mention the idiots claiming they're going to join a band of Amazon
warriors and frolic with grizzly cubs.

Wrong. There are far more people and way fewer unspoiled lands than there were
then.

I call these factions the Campers, and the Davey Crocketts.


The people who survive will be gardeners/gatherers and handcrafters. They will
know their plants and how to turn them into clothing and heat and light and food
and paper and medicine and shelter and chemicals.

Yeah, and they'll try to control their regions by spiking the neighbors'
drinking water with homemade birth control drugs. Idiots.

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 06:17:00 GMT, Sue wrote:

(snip)
Aha. There ya go. "*Thinking* about another way to live."
*Thinking*, not *doing*. Alan/David, I'm proud of you. You've
finally come to terms with your fantasy life. Good Boy.
Sue

Please, Sue, don't sully the word "thinking" by using it to refer to ANYTHING
analc does.

"Alan Connor" wrote in message
ink.net...


In North America at present, including Canada, there are about 500,000
square
miles of mountain forests that are removed from major population centers
and in a climate that is cold-temperate or better.

Assuming 300,000,000 people in the U.S. and Canada, and that 5% of those
people can make it to, or are already in, the Rockies (etc.), that gives
these
areas a post-Collapse population density of approximately 30 people per
square mile, or about 20 acres apiece, back-to-back.

(your neighbor will be able to hit your house with a thrown rock from
their
front porch)


Having spend a good deal of time in Durango, I can say that if I had to live
in the Rockies to survive I would probably find a tall bridge (Royal Gorge?)
and jump off.

SD