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Old 25-07-2005, 06:30 PM
vsop
 
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Default Is This Dangerous ?

My new neighbour has relocated a row of Raspberries to up against the wall
of her garage so they can be watered by rain dripping off from the
roof......(No gutters on the roof)

However, the roof is asbestos and when I pointed out that there might be a
danger from asbestos being taken up by the plants, either thro the roots,
leaves or fruit, she was quite certain that it was not possible for asbestos
to be absorbed in this way and there was no danger to her family eating the
fruit in future years.

She may be right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being over concerned and am
totally wrong, but I certainly wouldn't take the risk and I'm very worried
that she's placing her family in danger from ingesting cancer causing
toxins.

Whets the general opinion on this ?




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Old 25-07-2005, 06:49 PM
 
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Default

The problem with asbestos is the dust getting into the lungs where it
can cause cancer. I don't think it is dangerous in the way your
neighbour is using the water after all many waterbutts are filled from
roofs with asbestos, I know mine is.

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Old 25-07-2005, 06:50 PM
Peter Stockdale
 
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"vsop" wrote in message
...
My new neighbour has relocated a row of Raspberries to up against the wall
of her garage so they can be watered by rain dripping off from the
roof......(No gutters on the roof)

However, the roof is asbestos and when I pointed out that there might be a
danger from asbestos being taken up by the plants, either thro the roots,
leaves or fruit, she was quite certain that it was not possible for
asbestos to be absorbed in this way and there was no danger to her family
eating the fruit in future years.

She may be right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being over concerned and am
totally wrong, but I certainly wouldn't take the risk and I'm very worried
that she's placing her family in danger from ingesting cancer causing
toxins.

Whets the general opinion on this ?



She is right - worry not !
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com


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Old 25-07-2005, 07:18 PM
Mike
 
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Default


But the possibility exists.




as does seeing Lord Lucan ride up Pall Mall on Shergar or Elvis Presley
skiing behind the Loch Ness monster.

There is more danger in crossing the road or having an accident in the
house, so don't get out of bed in the morning and for Christ sake don't put
your bed on casters and ask someone to push you across the road.

Cotton Wool PC state

:-((

and to think we were once GREAT Britain


:-((((((((((((((((((


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Old 25-07-2005, 07:23 PM
Cereus-validus.......
 
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You worry too much.

She is far more likely to get blown up by terrorists.


"vsop" wrote in message
...
My new neighbour has relocated a row of Raspberries to up against the wall
of her garage so they can be watered by rain dripping off from the
roof......(No gutters on the roof)

However, the roof is asbestos and when I pointed out that there might be a
danger from asbestos being taken up by the plants, either thro the roots,
leaves or fruit, she was quite certain that it was not possible for
asbestos to be absorbed in this way and there was no danger to her family
eating the fruit in future years.

She may be right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being over concerned and am
totally wrong, but I certainly wouldn't take the risk and I'm very worried
that she's placing her family in danger from ingesting cancer causing
toxins.

Whets the general opinion on this ?







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Old 25-07-2005, 08:14 PM
Mike Lyle
 
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Default

Peter Stockdale wrote:
"vsop" wrote in message
...
My new neighbour has relocated a row of Raspberries to up against
the wall of her garage so they can be watered by rain dripping off
from the roof......(No gutters on the roof)

However, the roof is asbestos and when I pointed out that there
might be a danger from asbestos being taken up by the plants,

either
thro the roots, leaves or fruit, she was quite certain that it was
not possible for asbestos to be absorbed in this way and there was
no danger to her family eating the fruit in future years.

She may be right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being over concerned

and
am totally wrong, but I certainly wouldn't take the risk and I'm
very worried that she's placing her family in danger from

ingesting
cancer causing toxins.

Whets the general opinion on this ?



She is right - worry not !
Pete
www.thecanalshop.com


Absolutely. The only way a plant can take anything up is when it's
dissolved in water, and asbestos is insoluble. That's partly why it
persists in animals' lungs.

I suppose there could be a slight risk if particles get washed onto
the fruit by the rain: nobody would dare say there's no risk at all;
but it certainly couldn't get there through the roots.

(Helped my father build an asbestos-clad shed back in the fifties!
Gulp!)

--
Mike.


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Old 25-07-2005, 08:32 PM
Martin Brown
 
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Default

Mike wrote:

But the possibility exists.


as does seeing Lord Lucan ride up Pall Mall on Shergar or Elvis Presley
skiing behind the Loch Ness monster.

There is more danger in crossing the road or having an accident in the
house, so don't get out of bed in the morning and for Christ sake don't put
your bed on casters and ask someone to push you across the road.


Actually accidents at home are much more common than you might think!

Cotton Wool PC state

:-((

and to think we were once GREAT Britain


:-((((((((((((((((((


Don't be too hard on him. The spelling of "fibers" (sic) guarantees this
wonderful piece of scare mongering comes from the other side of the pond
where lawyers make mega-bucks by flying in the face of common sense.

Over there the bottom of every milk bottle would have to be stamped
"open other end". And microwave ovens marked "not for drying pets".

Unless the roof is mainly blue asbestos and you burn the shed down the
risk to the rasberries watered by the rainwater runoff is neglible.
Bound up in asbestos board the stuff isn't anything like as nasty but
disturb or break up the binding material and then there is serious hazard.

Disturb it without the right protective equipment and all bets are off.
Last time I was at the tip I saw a council operative put this stuff into
a crusher on the back of a bin wagon (a very very bad idea). He was
showered in dust from it. And they had a genuine asbestos waste zone!

I guess he didn't know it was asbestos board...

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old 25-07-2005, 08:49 PM
Peter Stockdale
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Absolutely. The only way a plant can take anything up is when it's
dissolved in water, and asbestos is insoluble. That's partly why it
persists in animals' lungs.

I suppose there could be a slight risk if particles get washed onto
the fruit by the rain: nobody would dare say there's no risk at all;
but it certainly couldn't get there through the roots.

(Helped my father build an asbestos-clad shed back in the fifties!
Gulp!)

--
Mike.



I used to work in a steel heat treatment factory where asbestos wool was
commonly used as an insulator.
I used to have to stuff it into the required areas - masks were optional !
(the sixties)

Gulp, Gulp !!!

Pete


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Old 25-07-2005, 09:05 PM
Mike
 
Posts: n/a
Default




I used to work in a steel heat treatment factory where asbestos wool was
commonly used as an insulator.
I used to have to stuff it into the required areas - masks were optional

!
(the sixties)

Gulp, Gulp !!!

Pete



I worked in a shipyard in the Boiler Rooms of the ships being built. Pipes
being lagged with dry asbestos and wet asbestos, stuff mixed up with water
to apply in great handfulls. we had snowball fights with the stuff. Masks?
What were they? 1950's and much to the owners of the newsgroup I am still
here.

PC State gone tooooo far


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Old 25-07-2005, 10:09 PM
Mike Lyle
 
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Default

Mike wrote:
I used to work in a steel heat treatment factory where asbestos
wool was commonly used as an insulator.
I used to have to stuff it into the required areas - masks were
optional ! (the sixties)

Gulp, Gulp !!!

Pete



I worked in a shipyard in the Boiler Rooms of the ships being

built.
Pipes being lagged with dry asbestos and wet asbestos, stuff mixed

up
with water to apply in great handfulls. we had snowball fights with
the stuff. Masks? What were they? 1950's and much to the owners of
the newsgroup I am still here.

PC State gone tooooo far


What a relief to read the sane views of a trained epidemiologist.
Personally, I find my radium watchchain is not only a great
talking-point at parties but has contributed enormously to my general
health.

--
Mike.




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Old 26-07-2005, 02:18 AM
Scott L. Hadley
 
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Don't be too hard on him. The spelling of "fibers" (sic) guarantees this
wonderful piece of scare mongering comes from the other side of the pond
where lawyers make mega-bucks by flying in the face of common sense.

Over there the bottom of every milk bottle would have to be stamped "open
other end". And microwave ovens marked "not for drying pets".

You ought to try living here. Talk about being "once Great Britain"---try
putting up with living in what was once the freeest nation on earth. Don't
be too hard on us, though. Most of us love the UK side of the pond, and the
possiblilties for changing back 'round over here are limitless.


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Old 26-07-2005, 09:41 AM
Nick Maclaren
 
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Default

In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote:
Mike wrote:

I used to work in a steel heat treatment factory where asbestos
wool was commonly used as an insulator.
I used to have to stuff it into the required areas - masks were
optional ! (the sixties)


I worked in a shipyard in the Boiler Rooms of the ships being

built.
Pipes being lagged with dry asbestos and wet asbestos, stuff mixed

up
with water to apply in great handfulls. we had snowball fights with
the stuff. Masks? What were they? 1950's and much to the owners of
the newsgroup I am still here.

PC State gone tooooo far


What a relief to read the sane views of a trained epidemiologist.


That is exactly what the asbestos experts say. There was a furore
after jobs with such negligible protection but using BLUE asbestos
killed several people, so our wonderful, so-scientific Lords and
Masters introduced regulations that treated all asbestos the same
way. This has since then supported the economy by requiring
expensive removal contracts for the massive amounts of the almost
harmless white asbestos.

We got the same thing recently when new regulations place the same
conditions on the carriage of compressed nitrogen and argon/nitrogen
as on compressed hydrogen or compressed chlorine. Yes, really.

Yes, white asbestos is harmful if you breath it, but only a little
more than glass fibre (one of its replacements) and, if I understand,
LESS than road tar fumes.

Personally, I find my radium watchchain is not only a great
talking-point at parties but has contributed enormously to my general
health.


Doubtless. The use of radioactives in watches was abolished because
it was applied by hand and the workers used to lick the end of their
brushes to dampen them. Even bulk radioactives are unimportant until
you ingest them.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 26-07-2005, 10:02 AM
Harold Walker
 
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Default


"Scott L. Hadley" wrote in message
news

Don't be too hard on him. The spelling of "fibers" (sic) guarantees this
wonderful piece of scare mongering comes from the other side of the pond
where lawyers make mega-bucks by flying in the face of common sense.

Over there the bottom of every milk bottle would have to be stamped "open
other end". And microwave ovens marked "not for drying pets".

You ought to try living here. Talk about being "once Great Britain"---try
putting up with living in what was once the freeest nation on earth. Don't
be too hard on us, though. Most of us love the UK side of the pond, and
the possiblilties for changing back 'round over here are limitless.

Just spent a couple of weeks in what once was "Great Britain".....would
not give tuppence for living there now....it aint what it used to be and
not by a long shot....I used to love to ride the trains to see the beautiful
looking gardens at the back of the houses along the railroad tracks....no
more....most of them looked ugly with huge weed patches and broken down
greenhouses etc....looks as tho the pride that once was there has gone
elsewhere.....walked around a couple of other weed patches that the locals
called 'allotments'. Perhaps one day it will rule the waves again.



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Old 26-07-2005, 11:40 AM
Chris Hogg
 
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Default

On Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:30:15 +0000 (UTC), "vsop"
wrote:

My new neighbour has relocated a row of Raspberries to up against the wall
of her garage so they can be watered by rain dripping off from the
roof......(No gutters on the roof)

However, the roof is asbestos and when I pointed out that there might be a
danger from asbestos being taken up by the plants, either thro the roots,
leaves or fruit, she was quite certain that it was not possible for asbestos
to be absorbed in this way and there was no danger to her family eating the
fruit in future years.

She may be right, I don't know, perhaps I'm being over concerned and am
totally wrong, but I certainly wouldn't take the risk and I'm very worried
that she's placing her family in danger from ingesting cancer causing
toxins.

Whets the general opinion on this ?

Your neighbour is right. It's the physical presence of asbestos
particles that causes cancer. Asbestos minerals (and there are several
types, see below), have a fibrous structure. The individual crystals
grow in the form of long thin filaments. When these are ingested, most
commonly as dust into the lungs, the body attempts to get rid of them
by enclosing them in a scavenger cell (a macrophage IIRC) and then
dissolving them. Asbestos fibres are too long to be enclosed
completely, and persist. The repeated but unsuccessful attempts of the
body to get rid of them eventually result in the formation of a tumor.

But a lot depends on the type of asbestos. The general impression
given is that it's all the same stuff, which it isn't. There are two
types commonly used by industry and met with by the general public:
white asbestos (the mineral chrysotile) and blue asbestos (the mineral
crocidolite, aka fibrous riebeckite). They are entirely different
minerals, with different chemical properties and crystalline
structures. The only thing they really have in common is their fibrous
nature.

Most asbestos-cement products made since the 1960's contain white
asbestos only, at about the 10% level IIRC. White asbestos dissolves
slowly in acid, which means it can and may dissolve in the stomach
(but whether it remains there for long enough, I don't know). The
resulting products are harmless (and also occur in many pharmaceutical
preparations). It can also dissolve in the lungs, although much more
slowly than in the stomach as the acidity is very much less. Residence
times in the lungs are in the order of 6 to 12 months, I believe.
Consequently, white asbestos is less of a hazard than other types
because it can dissolve and doesn't persist for long enough for tumors
to form. However, prolonged exposure to high concentrations can result
in cancers. The asbestos deposits in Quebec are of this type, and
claims by the workers for compensation nearly bankrupted parts Lloyds
insurance a couple of decades ago.

OTOH the really nasty stuff is blue asbestos, extensively used in
thermal insulation and fire-proof fabric because of its longer
filaments. It is not readily dissolved in acid and will persist e.g.
in the lungs for many years, eventually causing tumors to form. But it
takes a long time. Anything ingested by mouth moves quite rapidly
through the intestines and is excreted within a few days, so I'd be
surprised if even blue asbestos caused stomach or intestinal cancers.
If it has been shown conclusively that blue asbestos does cause such
cancers, it must surely be only after exposure to high concentrations
over a long period.

Cement products made in the late 1940's and 1950's sometimes contained
a blend of white and blue asbestos, so inhaling the dust from them
could be potentially harmful. As there's no simple way of knowing
whether your old asbestos-cement shed contains just white asbestos, or
a blend of blue and white, it's sensible to treat all old asbestos-
cement as being potentially hazardous, and take appropriate
precautions when handling it.

There are other hazardous forms of 'asbestos' (e.g brown asbestos and
tremolite, both related to the blue variety IIRC), but these are
rarely encountered commercially.

I should add that I have no specific expertise in the field of
asbestos. But I spent my career working for a company involved in the
mining of finely powdered white minerals from all over the world.
Inevitably one picked up a certain amount of background information on
the hazards of mineral dusts in general, including asbestos.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net
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Old 26-07-2005, 12:35 PM
Scott L. Hadley
 
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Default


"Harold Walker" wrote in message
...
..
Just spent a couple of weeks in what once was "Great Britain".....would
not give tuppence for living there now....it aint what it used to be and
not by a long shot....I used to love to ride the trains to see the
beautiful looking gardens at the back of the houses along the railroad
tracks....no more....most of them looked ugly with huge weed patches and
broken down greenhouses etc....looks as tho the pride that once was there
has gone elsewhere.....walked around a couple of other weed patches that
the locals called 'allotments'. Perhaps one day it will rule the waves
again.

Sad. I spent two glorious weeks in southern and western England in
1990---most of us looked up to that land as a garden heaven---a place where
some of us US garden types got our inspiration. And learning. I certainly
did, before our trip and during. And I noticed the patches of flowers in
the most unlikely places, as you mention. To think things have slid so far
in the intervening 15 years---We'll be back again eventually. Some things
must have lasted---




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