Ann wrote:
"D. Staples" expounded:

I meant to ask, as a close associate of Dr. Shigo, were you in the
secretarial pool, do the floors, or clean up around the office? It would
fit right in with Keslick being a biologist. Perhaps you should stay in
zone 6a and raise your flowers..

Listen, Donny-boy, I'm no fan of any of this. Why don't you snip your
childish crossposts and go away from rec.gardens? Hmmm?

Why don't you?

You left in: alt.forestry, alt.great-lakes

which I deleted. Or set follow-ups.

--
lsmft

In article ,
Geoff-consulting forester in the US wrote:

Treelady, et, Al.

The only reason you find "Symplastless" to have a good understanding of
trees is that you are ignorant.

Note that I stated "ignorant" and not stupid. My statement is not an
insult, but rather a logical reply based on your input.

It is obvious that none of the rest of you have enough experience with
Emerald Ash Borer (EAB) to offer advice or experience with the critter.

So, instead this thread becomes a fury of insults. How ridiculously
selfish.

I am the only one who has offered any positive information about this
topic, with the exception of the person who started this thread - and
that person was *NOT* "Symplastless".

Just because "Symplastless" has a "good understanding of trees" (a
statement coming from someone ("Treelady") who may or may not have
credentials), doesn't mean he knows anything about EAB.

His offer that healthy trees respond more vigorously to fend off disease
and pathogens as a response to an EAB infection speaks volumes to his
ignorance of the matter.

"D. Staples", a forester in the SE *IS* educated, as is "Joe" (a
forester in the NE.)
Massachusetts isn't it? I wonder how Jim DiMaio would appreciate this
kind of public relations?
There are other professional people who serve the
posters on this newsgroup as well. We all have paid our dues serving
the public, serving private and group land ownerships and acquiring a
degree from different universities.

This is something that Keslick ("Symplastless") has *NOT* done.

...and his lack of knowledge on the subject matter, along with his
self-marketing is a typical combination of a scam artist.

THIS is why I suggested to the original poster to simply ignore him.

I'd recommend that advice to my colleague D. Staples once again too.

(Note to Don, cheap entertainment yes - but there are bigger bangs for
the buck so to speak).

As to you other faux geniuses out there, (e.g. "Billy Rose"), please
take the mensa test and see how you score. I suspect that you will not
fare as well as you think.

Regards,
Geoff

Just when I thought you were modeling behavior. Why can't your buddies
answer a simple question without going all attitudinal? Don brought into
question John's qualifications which are very clearly posted. I make no
special claims for myself but I posted mine so that Don might figure out
how it was done. (But if you feel so insecure that you need someone
else, MENSA, to validate you for money, go for it.) Don was maligning
John's work and gave no basis for it. Even as good as your post is, you
still condescend without addressing the issue. It seems that if you work
for the government for a few years, you're no good in the private sector
anymore. Shouldn't you be out picking up trash or something?
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

Joe wrote:
I believe it was the TREE BIOLOGIST who cross posted- get him to stop
cross posting and we can go back to our own realities.

You can't get anyone to not do something on usenet. You can control only
your own actions.

So please don't continue the x-posting yourself.

--
lsmft

In article ,
Geoff-consulting forester in the US wrote:

Treelady, et, Al.

The only reason you find "Symplastless" to have a good understanding of
trees is that you are ignorant.

Note that I stated "ignorant" and not stupid. My statement is not an
insult, but rather a logical reply based on your input.

It is obvious that none of the rest of you have enough experience with
Emerald Ash Borer (EAB) to offer advice or experience with the critter.

So, instead this thread becomes a fury of insults. How ridiculously
selfish.

I am the only one who has offered any positive information about this
topic, with the exception of the person who started this thread - and
that person was *NOT* "Symplastless".

Just because "Symplastless" has a "good understanding of trees" (a
statement coming from someone ("Treelady") who may or may not have
credentials), doesn't mean he knows anything about EAB.

His offer that healthy trees respond more vigorously to fend off disease
and pathogens as a response to an EAB infection speaks volumes to his
ignorance of the matter.

"D. Staples", a forester in the SE *IS* educated, as is "Joe" (a
forester in the NE.) There are other professional people who serve the
posters on this newsgroup as well. We all have paid our dues serving
the public, serving private and group land ownerships and acquiring a
degree from different universities.

This is something that Keslick ("Symplastless") has *NOT* done.

...and his lack of knowledge on the subject matter, along with his
self-marketing is a typical combination of a scam artist.

THIS is why I suggested to the original poster to simply ignore him.

I'd recommend that advice to my colleague D. Staples once again too.

(Note to Don, cheap entertainment yes - but there are bigger bangs for
the buck so to speak).

As to you other faux geniuses out there, (e.g. "Billy Rose"), please
take the mensa test and see how you score. I suspect that you will not
fare as well as you think.

Regards,
Geoff

Treelady wrote:

"I find Symplastless to have a good understanding of trees, theier
biology and appropriate care. To ignore him is to dismiss the
teachings of Alex Shigo- anyone claiming to understand or know about
trees without due regard for Shigo's work is one to be taken with a
pinch of salt."





On Aug 8, 7:48 pm, Geoff-consulting forester in the US
wrote:
I'm a registered forester in Michigan, Pat.

Ignore this "symplastless" guy... he's a wanna-be forester.
Lacking some serious formal education, and thus professional background.

Myself and my colleagues have had to sort through the majority of his
posts on this forum.

I do not believe that the American ash is "history", but there is no
doubt the bug has done some serious damage to many of our hardwood
stands in the central lower peninsula (or "810" area code as I call it -
even though the actual problem extends far beyond that area code's
boundaries).

I live in Osceola county (just South of Cadillac) and it has been found
in my county, but not doing damage to the extent that it did in lower
Michigan. I have not yet seen it in a stand up here. I hope it
continues that way.

The biggest problem is vectoring. It cannot vector itself very far
(maybe a mile or two), but people can vector it very broad and very fast
via cars, hence the "moving firewood bugs me" campaign.

Once it gets to a place where there are any form of ash trees, it goes
on a feeding frenzy that is like no other.

I've sold timber in Defiance County, Ohio - which was also one of the
EAB problem areas, but timber in NW Ohio is scattered enough as to not
be a problem for EABs.

EAB resistance is more than likely a futile attempt. The best way to
eliminate the problem is to eliminate the hosts where populations of EAB
are found. This critter is not known to prey on other trees.Pat Kiewicz
wrote:
symplastless said:
Product pusher. Bayer also claims to be a feeder of trees as well.
You'll learn to sing some other tune when these insects arrive in your
neck of the woods. They are a monumental catastrophe. I live near
ground zero. Millions of ash trees, in forests and back yards, have
been killed. The non-native emerald ash borer attacks healthy trees
as well as stressed trees. The skeletons of dead ash in nearby wildlands
eerie and obvious. All due to a surprisingly small green beetle.
Long term (maybe very long term indeed), breeding resistant strains of
North American ash and finding appropriate biological controls will be
needed or the American ash is history.
http://www.emeraldashborer.info/
Should I Replant or Save My Ash? (PowerPoint presentation):
http://www.emeraldashborer.info/file...ProtectAsh.htm
Options for 'do it yourself' homeowners unwilling to give up on their
ash trees:
http://www.emeraldashborer.info/files/E2955.pdf
(As for me, if I had to make a choice, I would the ash tree removed
and be done with it.)
Quote fromhttp://www.emeraldashborer.info/homeownerinfo.cfm
"IMPORTANT NOTE: Using insecticides to control EAB on ash trees is an
option in Michigan and the EAB quarantined counties in Ohio, Indiana
and Illinois. If your tree is located within an area designated for
eradication or suppression activities, it may be removed by regulatory
agencies even if it has been treated. In those cases where government-
ordered tree removals occur within the contiguous EAB quarantine
counties, consideration will be given to ash trees treated by certified
applicators utilizing methods and materials recommended by Michigan
State University. If your ash trees are located outside of this area in
Michigan, Indiana, Illinois or Ohio, using insecticides may not be
recommended. If you are not sure about the regulatory status of your
area or whether you should consider insecticides, please contact your
county Extension office."




You hiccuping Geoff? They must not have taught you how to use a news
reader in Forest Science III.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article ,
Geoff-consulting forester in the US wrote:

Treelady, et, Al.

The only reason you find "Symplastless" to have a good understanding of
trees is that you are ignorant.

Geoff, take your elbow off the computer. And thank you for your
testimonials for Joe and Stubby.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article .com,
Treelady wrote:

On Aug 13, 3:27 am, mhagen wrote:
symplastless wrote:
"symplastless" wrote in message
Training with out education makes robots.
Education without training makes?

Training without education makes robots. Education without training makes
waste. Both are needed; training and education.

100 Tree Myths Shigo page 8

Billy Rose, symplastless - this sounds like a cult.

You respond like spoiled 8 year olds. If you've actually gotten paid for
this and you think this thread is helping your career, you must live in
bum****, egypt and have a lot of truly ignorant clients. You do know
what the Usenet is, right? Anybody who can punch up Google can read
your inane and callow retorts. And you think they won't research you? Ha!

You whine about Don's or Joe's credentials but show no scientific rigor
in your own statements. They don't have to show a resume- they were here
when this group started and before that on bionet agroforestry. We
started these groups. You repeat yourself constantly- perhaps you're
brain damaged. You seem to have derived your knowledge, if that's what
you call it, directly from divine inspiration- Ezekiel, eh? More likely
plagiarism from the good Dr.s publications. Stop cross posting to alt.
forestry and I promise- I won't cross post to alt.great lakes or
rec.gardens. This is a professional and social group where working
Foresters can blow off steam, compare issues and talk about problems.
You've been getting a pretty polite treatment so far.

He has a point, when shall all of you settle down and start talking
about trees? Tree talk is much more interesting than all the back and
forth arguing.

Very true but these trolls have attempted to damage John's business. You
know, his means of supporting his family. What I suggest is that all of
us write to the Forestry Service in Massachusetts and Oregon or the USDA
and complain about these "public employees". Jim DiMaio,
Chief Forester, Bureau of Forestry, Boston (617) 626-1430 Fax (617)
626-1351 or Marvin Brown, State Forester, Salem OR PH: 503-945-7211.

mhagen got it right. Even Stubby cops to
being a cult.
D. Staples July 25 alt.forestry

Ah, but Joe, we are merely the dirty underbelly of the profession, the
one's that actually get mud on our boots, what could we collectively
know about the profession of forestry. We don't get the strokes, the
diamond studded collars, or the "Forester of the Year" awards. All we
do is grow trees and manage forests. This site represents the real
world of forestry. The archivists will call us a "CULT", or
untermenchen, of the real forestry world recorded in the great Halls of
Ivory.
--------

So you can see that for all their vacation time and medical insurance,
they are still miserable with their jobs. How threatening must it be for
them when someone with a couple of smarts to rub together, gets
recognition and respect for working in their "speciality" area. Even a
year at Bellvue couldn't straighten out these misanthropes.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article ,
John McWilliams wrote:

Joe wrote:
I believe it was the TREE BIOLOGIST who cross posted- get him to stop
cross posting and we can go back to our own realities.

You can't get anyone to not do something on usenet. You can control only
your own actions.

So please don't continue the x-posting yourself.

Coming right up John. We shoukdn't play with trolls.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

In article ,
"Don Staples" wrote:

We are waiting for some one, any one, with a legitimate question?

"Treelady" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 13, 3:27 am, mhagen wrote:
symplastless wrote:


He has a point, when shall all of you settle down and start talking
about trees? Tree talk is much more interesting than all the back and
forth arguing.


Let him wait.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/

"Billy Rose" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
Treelady wrote:

On Aug 13, 3:27 am, mhagen wrote:
symplastless wrote:
"symplastless" wrote in message
Training with out education makes robots.
Education without training makes?

Training without education makes robots. Education without training
makes
waste. Both are needed; training and education.

100 Tree Myths Shigo page 8

Billy Rose, symplastless - this sounds like a cult.

You respond like spoiled 8 year olds. If you've actually gotten paid
for
this and you think this thread is helping your career, you must live in
bum****, egypt and have a lot of truly ignorant clients. You do know
what the Usenet is, right? Anybody who can punch up Google can read
your inane and callow retorts. And you think they won't research you?
Ha!

You whine about Don's or Joe's credentials but show no scientific rigor
in your own statements. They don't have to show a resume- they were
here
when this group started and before that on bionet agroforestry. We
started these groups. You repeat yourself constantly- perhaps you're
brain damaged. You seem to have derived your knowledge, if that's what
you call it, directly from divine inspiration- Ezekiel, eh? More likely
plagiarism from the good Dr.s publications. Stop cross posting to alt.
forestry and I promise- I won't cross post to alt.great lakes or
rec.gardens. This is a professional and social group where working
Foresters can blow off steam, compare issues and talk about problems.
You've been getting a pretty polite treatment so far.

He has a point, when shall all of you settle down and start talking
about trees? Tree talk is much more interesting than all the back and
forth arguing.

Very true but these trolls have attempted to damage John's business. You
know, his means of supporting his family. What I suggest is that all of
us write to the Forestry Service in Massachusetts and Oregon or the USDA
and complain about these "public employees". Jim DiMaio,
Chief Forester, Bureau of Forestry, Boston (617) 626-1430 Fax (617)
626-1351 or Marvin Brown, State Forester, Salem OR PH: 503-945-7211.

mhagen got it right. Even Stubby cops to
being a cult.
D. Staples July 25 alt.forestry

Ah, but Joe, we are merely the dirty underbelly of the profession, the
one's that actually get mud on our boots, what could we collectively
know about the profession of forestry. We don't get the strokes, the
diamond studded collars, or the "Forester of the Year" awards. All we
do is grow trees and manage forests. This site represents the real
world of forestry. The archivists will call us a "CULT", or
untermenchen, of the real forestry world recorded in the great Halls of
Ivory.
--------

So you can see that for all their vacation time and medical insurance,
they are still miserable with their jobs. How threatening must it be for
them when someone with a couple of smarts to rub together, gets
recognition and respect for working in their "speciality" area. Even a
year at Bellvue couldn't straighten out these misanthropes.
--
Along with everything else, your reading comprehension is very limited.
None of us on here are government employees, crotch rot. By the way, you
can kiss our collective asses.

"Billy Rose" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"D. Staples" wrote:

"Billy Rose" wrote in message
...
In article LtMvi.1123$Gz4.695@trndny05, "Joe" wrote:

"symplastless" wrote in message
...
No Don Staples, we are very different from you.
1. We understand trees
2. We define our terms

Don Staples you claim to be a forester. Please define what you
mean
by a
forest.

Most foresters have taken at least a dozen courses in forestry, after
taken
many courses in biology, along with the other countless required
college
courses. I have about 20 college texts on forestry, trees, wildlife
biology
and mgt., arboriculture, soils science, geology, etc., etc.- that tops
your
3 day courses.

I conclude that you or whoever started this thread by cross posting
should
stop the cross posting.

Even if you were a highly educated and trained arborist- arborist
issues
don't belong in alt.forestry. Perhaps, you could start a new group
called
alt.arborist. Don and myself and a few others started this newsgroup a
decade ago- it wasn't that difficult- so you could do it too then keep
your
discussions there where they belong.

Joe

Gladly, but I am posting in rec.gardens. We rarely deal with forests.
Mostly just trees. Your buddy Don could have easily brought this thread
to an end, a long time ago by entering into a civil discussion instead
of just showing attitude.

Ah, an angry rag head, as well. You could have brought this thread to an
end by stopping the crossposting, but no, you join the fray, so, have it,
crotch rot. Civil discussion has failed in the past with "the tree
biologist", and will with his invites, as well. So, as I said, **** off,
crotch rot.

Heavens, I didn't think that you and "Civil Discussion" were even on a
nodding acquaintance.

I'm sorry John, I was just looking at the Massachusetts requirements for
Forestry. I'm reminded of the smile that used to pass among physical
scientists when a biologist was around. Today what passes for a
biologist is a bio-chemist. I think if you required long division from
these idiots they would fold-up. Have you read "Fastfood Nation"? The
upshot of the whole deal is that you can find want adds for doctors
these days. People can come in off the street and are taught doctor
skills to free up doctors and nurses and make fewer of them necessary
and generate more profits for the hospitals investors.

I'm pretty sure that these folks don't want to end up in their golden
years flipping hamburgers at McDonalds and if you call yourself an
"arborist" without suffering what they suffered, then you are a threat.
Joe particularly got worked up over manual laborers and how little
training that they required. And thats all there is to it John, you are
a threat to them.

They have taken Forest Science I, II, and III, sorry, but not the most
intellectually challenging classes in the world, and now work they work
for the government, which gives them no respect. You on the other hand
have taken a number of three day classes, started your own business, and
are treated as a professional. LOL

Hey, Massachusetts, you can do it cheaper.

Stubby, super size that will ya?

Supper size THIS, crotch rot. Like your leader, the "tree biologist', you
have no concept of what your talking about.

"symplastless" wrote in message
. ..
Don Staples if you claim to be a forester you should be able to define
what a forest is. Please define.

As an obsessive compulsive autistic you should be able to define yourself.

"Ann" wrote in message
...
"D. Staples" expounded:

I meant to ask, as a close associate of Dr. Shigo, were you in the
secretarial pool, do the floors, or clean up around the office? It would
fit right in with Keslick being a biologist. Perhaps you should stay in
zone 6a and raise your flowers..

Listen, Donny-boy, I'm no fan of any of this. Why don't you snip your
childish crossposts and go away from rec.gardens? Hmmm?
--

It would seem, since you failed to answer the question, which puts you in
the same category as the "tree biologist", a fraud. And by the way, it
seems you did not snip the headers, either. Hmmmm?

"symplastless" wrote in message
...
Don Staples

Do you understand trees? Please explain.


Do you understand that you are a fraud? What were you to Dr. Shigo, his saw
hand? Or a grandson that cannot make it without riding the good Doctors
coat tail.

"Geoff-consulting forester in the US" wrote in
message ...
Rock on EVH - or is that Mozart?

Neither.

*damn, so confusing!*

If you're young, you'll get used to it. If not, it won't matter for long.

Wolfgang

In article ,
Geoff-consulting forester in the US wrote:

An error occurred in my mail program several times stating that the
message was not sent..but sent the messages anyway.

*I reason that this is shared ignorance:*

1. The programmer is ignorant that this error is displayed and yet sends
the messages anyway;
2. I was ignorant that the program sent messages that displayed errors
stating that messages had not been sent;
3. You were ignorant of the cause of the "7" posts.

I count 6 posts, so there could be even more ignorance here - it's
fairly rampant in humans (to err is human).

Feeling less ignorant now? I am.

Now, while you are correct that others have "cross replied" to the
thread (most did actually), you're missing the point:

Keslick is a scam artist, marketing skills and expertise he lacks.

Those of us who do have the expertise and skills realize this quite
clearly nearly every time he posts his rhetoric.

Those of you who do not understand would have no idea how damaging this
is to the industry, because you're not a part of it. Some of us don't
take kindly to this sort of scam artist - the same reason that the
professional dancers on the Nationally syndicated television show "Do
you think you can Dance" get upset and make negative comments about
people who get up there stating that they are a trainer and just can't
friggin' dance.

It's disrespectful to the profession. Unfortunately, we're (the
foresters) in the difficult situation of having a profession that is so
small collectively, we don't have a lobbying firm or PR marketing team
to make it illegal for idiots like John Keslick to market himself as a
"tree bilogist", etc.

We can't have shows with monkeys running up and down trees like they're
"TREE HUNTER", because trees don't move and that's boring.

All we can do is feel sorry for the clients Keslick rips off by charging
a fee to them to taking care of their trees inappropriately through the
obvious lack of knowledge and incompetence, the same way many other
major "landscape care" companies do.

The Forestry program at the University I attended didn't have any Public
Relations (PR) class of any sort (maybe a small angle or two was covered
in a Socioeconomics class). It also didn't have an ethics class - BOTH
of which are arguably needed.

However, Unlike anything that "Symplastless" has experienced, it *DID*
have all kinds of classes related to the study of trees and forests;
Biology,
Inorganic and Organic Chemistry,

They always have these watered down classes for majors that will never
need them. We called them "baby organic chem" and "baby inorganic". They
probably just do it to Foresters to torture them and let them know how
little they know.

Plant Physiology, Pathology,
Drendology, Entomology, Forest Ecology, Biometry, Forest management and
others.

Now, as far as the ****ing freedom of speech goes you little
anti-American church going whore, Don't tread on my bill of rights.

Oh yes, the freedom of speech covers profanity - yes indeed it does my
little ho...

My advice to you is if you don't like to see words like ****ing crotch
rot, or ****, or think about themes such as licking smegma off the
rotten portion between the balls and an asshole just after some dude
gets done running a marathon in a week old undies, stick to a moderated
and highly text censored forum instead.

Get some ****ing skin thickener, biatch!

Now, feel free to blame all this nasty talk on my ignorance of Public
relations. *grin*

By the way, Rachel - I always got a hard-on for chicks named Rachel - .
I mean, seriously are they ALL hot or WHAT? Wanna ****? Don't tell my
wife!

Feel free to blame that last invitation on my lack of an ethics class.
*grin*

What a twisted world we live in!

Have a nice day.

P.S. have to keep this on topic: please don't move firewood. It *bugs* me.

There you have it folk, taxpayer's money at work. So who would you
rather have doctoring your tree Businessman John or psychopath Geoff?

No wonder they don't get no respect.

---------------

D. Staples Jun 25, 6:58 pm
Newsgroups: alt.forestry
From: "D. Staples"
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2007 20:58:40 -0500
Local: Mon, Jun 25 2007 6:58 pm
Subject: alt.forestry
"Joe" wrote in message news:3rWfi.6273$oo5.924@trndny09...
POSTED IN ALT.FORESTRY

One thing about this forestry forum- it's the best one on the planet so
far- we have a good variety of points of view- and everyone is willing to
have a real old fashioned red blooded American down and dirty debate-
something not available anywhere else.

In the SAF
( http://www.securityexpertgroup.com/t...ices_about.htm )?

These forest rangers apparently aspire to be cops. Unbelievable.

discussion groups- I've been thrown out more than once- those
weenies can't bear the thought of anyone thinking out of the box, the SAF
box. The same is true of Guild groups which are even weenier.

Here in Mass.- I often send out "rants" to the entire forestry world- and
over the years I've been told to shut up by virtually everyone from all
sides of the forestry spectrum- and threatened a few times too- the
previous state Chief Forester tried to get my license revoked, claiming in
his official complaint to the license board that my rants were
"essentially forbidden". Can you imagine such arrogance? Also, here in
Mass.- Mike Leonard once wrote a humorous Christmas story about the local
wood industry- they complained to the license board that Mike should lose
his license- imagine, those rough, tough loggers whining over some humor.

So, for what it's worth- this is the best place, the most honest and
profound forestry discussion on the third rock from the sun. Someday these
discussions will be discovered by archivists.

Ah, but Joe, we are merely the dirty underbelly of the profession, the
one's
that actually get mud on our boots, what could we collectively know about
the profession of forestry. We don't get the strokes, the diamond studded
collars, or the "Forester of the Year" awards. All we do is grow trees
and
manage forests. This site represents the real world of forestry. The
archivists will call us a cult, or untermenchen, of the real forestry
world
recorded in the great Halls of Ivory.
--------


rachael simpson wrote:
Geoff-consulting forester in the US wrote:
Treelady, et, Al.

The only reason you find "Symplastless" to have a good understanding of
trees is that you are ignorant.

Note that I stated "ignorant" and not stupid. My statement is not an
insult, but rather a logical reply based on your input.

Then you must also be ignorant to have posted this exact message 7
times! Note: I stated "ignorant" and this is my logical reply based on
everyone's input:

All you self-righteous folk, go back to your "forestry" and leave our
gardens, please!

In defense of John, all he did was reply to a thread that had been
cross-posted. He was *NOT* the original cross-poster. Neither was Billy.
Or Ann. Or myself. With some readers, if not all of them, when you hit
reply to a thread, it sends the reply to all the groups that the OP sent
it to. Whereas, you seem to think that we invaded your territory, STS,
we could think the same here in wreck gardens. So how's bout a
deal....you go back where you belong, and we will stay where we belong.

Oh & glad that Don's vocabulary is so advanced that he has to revert to
name calling with explicits. That was so uncalled for. Is that the type
of language you learned in your PR classes?

Let's hear it one last time for the "Daisy-Chain of the Forest" Joe, Don
Staples, and Geoff.
--
FB - FFF

Billy
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/