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#31
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
Charlie wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:09:58 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Get a life, Charlie. Offer CONSTRUCTIVE advice or join the ranks of the "holier than thou" Yawn...OK, I will...join the ranks of the holier than thou, that is. And sorry to say, Paul, I'll post as I see fit, according to my "agenda" and not according to your demands. I also intend to keep my life and help my grandchildren keep theirs by doing what I can to keep morons from contaminating their food with poison. For example, there are a LOT of bee keepers who use chemicals every bit as risky as the OP used. Golly, I guess that makes it just hunky-dory okie-dokie to spread poison about the planet. Thanks for the heads up and the excellant argument justifying the use of such, Paul. Tell me, how do you feel about irradiated food? :-) I gots me all sorts of them kinds of questions I would like to ponder you head with, but I thinks I gots yer number already, son. ;-) Has ANY one of you doom and gloomers ever given the advice such as CONTACT YOUR LOCAL AGRICULTURE EXTENSION AGENT and ask for THEIR advice and opinion. "I'm from the gummint and I am here to help you".....uh huh, oh yeah! They do have some good plans for hogsheds, though. This statement of yours shows your lack of understanding or care about such things as three-legged frogs and declining bird populations and cancers and all sorts of funky shit that is happening on account of, well, you know. But I didn't get this information from monsatano or dow or bayer or any of their front guys, like the usda and fda and....so I guess it is just doom and gloom bullshit. Of course not. You have your own agenda. Yep, that agenda being the speaking out about the use of toxins that contribute to the toxically over-burdened planet and that contribute to the bodily toxic load we and our children and grandchildren must suffer on account of the ignorance and greed of people such as yourself and the sockpuppet and all the minions of the agrochemical cartel who advocate the use of toxins. Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? Doom, Doom, Doom....can you hear the drums, Paul? Charlie "You just caught me on a good night. I'm doing what I was made to do - and I've got a feeling I'm going to do it even better this time" - Captain Billy Tyne Charlie I gave the OP advice on how to obtain the answer to his question - NOT - NOT I repeat my personal opinion. To summarize I have said: 1) Contact the manufacturer. If they say it is safe that does not mean that one should stop there. If they say chuck the grapes then by all means do it. 2) I suggested calling the viticulture experts at Virginia tech and or making the wine and sending them a sample for testing. 3) Contacting the OP's local agriculture extension agent. YOU have given YOUR personal opinion based on nothing but shit house rumors and NOT science. |
#32
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
Sherwin wrote in
: Jangchub wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:04:13 -0400, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific topic equally as hazardous or even more so. It would seem an almost unanimous decision and opinion here that you chuck the grapes you applied a very toxic poison to. Sevin is advertised using lies, lies and more lies and people have been gardening for decades, some professionally, some avidly, some used to use these pesticides who no longer use them because they found out the truth about them over the years. Constructive as I can be without crawling on my hands and knees begging: Do NOT use these tainted grapes. Chalk it up to a big mistake, period. Yes, it's all a conspiracy. They are out to get us. mostly your money. they certainly don't care if the food is safe to eat or if the product poisons water or soil. profit is the sole motive. if you choose to give them more profit, that's your business, but keep your nasty poisoned food away (far away) from me & my farm. thanks. lee -- Last night while sitting in my chair I pinged a host that wasn't there It wasn't there again today The host resolved to NSA. |
#33
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Kay Lancaster wrote: "Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for applying Sevin. The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my girlfriends father, complete with no instructions. Just toss it across the whole of the vine like he does his peach trees. So that is what I did. You'll probably take this as more sarcastic criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not sure most people should be allowed to use other than a flyswatter as a pesticide. You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown chemical of unknown concentration, with no instructions, and you didn't know how to apply it. How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say, Paris green? Or maybe one of the herbicides? Or flour? Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you badly. This might be that. Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific topic equally as hazardous or even more so. You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop, 1. Make sure it has a label 2. Read the label, so you know the concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that you: 4. Know how to apply it. Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge about it. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place where someone can make everything ok. Chris |
#34
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote:
In article , Charlie wrote: Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East. Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again. I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do. But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ). I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply. = Paul = |
#35
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
Chris wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Kay Lancaster wrote: "Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for applying Sevin. The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my girlfriends father, complete with no instructions. Just toss it across the whole of the vine like he does his peach trees. So that is what I did. You'll probably take this as more sarcastic criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not sure most people should be allowed to use other than a flyswatter as a pesticide. You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown chemical of unknown concentration, with no instructions, and you didn't know how to apply it. How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say, Paris green? Or maybe one of the herbicides? Or flour? Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you badly. This might be that. Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific topic equally as hazardous or even more so. You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop, 1. Make sure it has a label 2. Read the label, so you know the concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that you: 4. Know how to apply it. Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge about it. Please tell me HOW I screwed up by advising the OP to: 1) talk to the folks at Virginia Tech and possibly submit a sample for their lab to analyze 2) talk to his county agriculture agent and or to 3) get information from the manufacturer. Some county agriculture agencies have programs for certification and education on the use of pesticides and fungicides. My advice was to get the FACTS and was NOT based on some knee jerk reaction like those you expouse. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place where someone can make everything ok. Chris |
#36
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote: On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East. Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again. I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do. But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ). I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply. = Paul = Sulfur candles were used before there was a written language. As luck would have it, SO2 is heavier than air. Sulfur wicks are still used to burn in barrels before they are stored empty although the trend is towards compressed gas. -- Billy Bush and Pelosi Behind Bars http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTf...ef=patrick.net http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo...eature=related |
#37
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 05:28:15 -0700, Chris wrote:
On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Kay Lancaster wrote: "Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for applying Sevin. The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my girlfriends father, complete with no instructions. Just toss it across the whole of the vine like he does his peach trees. So that is what I did. You'll probably take this as more sarcastic criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not sure most people should be allowed to use other than a flyswatter as a pesticide. You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown chemical of unknown concentration, with no instructions, and you didn't know how to apply it. How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say, Paris green? Or maybe one of the herbicides? Or flour? Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you badly. This might be that. Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific topic equally as hazardous or even more so. You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop, 1. Make sure it has a label 2. Read the label, so you know the concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that you: 4. Know how to apply it. Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge about it. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place where someone can make everything ok. Chris OK.. You're 100% correct. I goofed - f'd up - etc. Checking with the fellow who gave me the dust - Sevin-5%. Being is he is 85 yo and farmed all his life, when he said to toss the stuff, I did as he suggested. I have written to gardentech.com ( the makers of Sevin-5 ) and am waiting for a reply. I checked with my neighbor who uses the stuff and read the instructions on the back and of course it said to use appropriet dispenser. It also said that the preharvest interval was 7 days for grapes. Looking through www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. I know, I know now - day late an' a buck short... I should have done the necessary reading ahead of time etc. And I should have told Mr Red " Just toss it on - are you crazy ol' man! - do you know how them posters will growl if I don't take all precautions and need advice because I didn't follow instructions and protocol..." I've used newsgroups in one form or other since DEC-NOTES. I can honestly say that I never did pick apart everything a poster wrote that I found fault with. If I couldn't offer some form of suggestion or help, I move on to the next post. And then I remember the flame wars that started taking place - people who just loved to tear everything apart and find fault. Mispelled words, improper grammar, you name it - not having a damned thing to do with the posters original query. Pre-spam spammers. But it's ok. Take what I need - leave the rest. And I am not referring to your own reply, there was useful input offered. Thank you - it will help in the future - but really did not focus on my query - grapes good or bad now that I f'd up. = Paul = |
#38
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Jul 23, 9:01 am, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
Chris wrote: On Jul 22, 7:04 pm, "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote: Kay Lancaster wrote: "Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Didn't you read the directions... that's the dumbest method for applying Sevin. The dust was given to me in a mason jar by my girlfriends father, complete with no instructions. Just toss it across the whole of the vine like he does his peach trees. So that is what I did. You'll probably take this as more sarcastic criticism, but stories like this are why I'm not sure most people should be allowed to use other than a flyswatter as a pesticide. You accepted an unlabeled jar of unknown chemical of unknown concentration, with no instructions, and you didn't know how to apply it. How do you know it was carbaryl, and not, say, Paris green? Or maybe one of the herbicides? Or flour? Some day, a stunt like this is going to bite you badly. This might be that. Why don't you offer constructive advice instead of bashing. I would be willing to bet YOU are equally guilty of being ignorant on a specific topic equally as hazardous or even more so. You know, that WAS constructive, but you're too defensive atm to see it. Next time you want to use a chemical on a crop, 1. Make sure it has a label 2. Read the label, so you know the concentration, 3. Read the instructions, so that you: 4. Know how to apply it. Finally, you screwed up. Be an adult, take your lumps because you deserve 'em, say "You're right and now I know better." Don't whinge about it. Please tell me HOW I screwed up by advising the OP to: 1) talk to the folks at Virginia Tech and possibly submit a sample for their lab to analyze 2) talk to his county agriculture agent and or to 3) get information from the manufacturer. Some county agriculture agencies have programs for certification and education on the use of pesticides and fungicides. My advice was to get the FACTS and was NOT based on some knee jerk reaction like those you expouse. The world won't always be a touch-feely warm little place where someone can make everything ok. Chris My mistake. I should have written that to the original poster. You provided sound advice. Sorry for the mixup. Chris |
#39
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote:
Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. TIA Paul I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things have really gotten totally blown out of proportion. I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for grapes. According to them: Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. ( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G ) And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation. Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many. And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism. As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will correct my ways. Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And chemical fertilizers, no way. I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields. It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops. And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought veggies, but one never knows for sure. I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on. To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input. If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering ( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5 years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8 inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length. Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when semi dry. Not sure what else to add ). = Paul = |
#40
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote: Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. TIA Paul I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things have really gotten totally blown out of proportion. I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for grapes. According to them: Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. ( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G ) And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation. Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many. And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism. As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will correct my ways. Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And chemical fertilizers, no way. I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields. It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops. And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought veggies, but one never knows for sure. I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on. To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input. If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering ( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5 years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8 inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length. Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when semi dry. Not sure what else to add ). = Paul = Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help push ) Bill -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
#41
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:20:17 -0400, Bill wrote:
In article , "Paul J. Dudley" wrote: On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 15:18:03 -0400, Paul J. Dudley wrote: Last month ( mid June ) I had applied Seven dust to my grapevine due to Japanese Beatle infestation. I applied by hand ( gloved ). I grabbed a handfull at a time and just tossed it across the whole of the foliage and grape clusters. Here it is mid July and I still see some rather rich deposits of the dust sitting on the clusters. As these grapes ( type unknown ) are reaching ripeness they will no doubt be harvested within the next 2 weeks to make wine. Will the residual Seven dust pose any health threats at this point ? I've tried rinsing with a garden hose but to no avail. It is rather "caked" in some areas. There might have been some moisture on the grapes when I slung the seven dust causing it to do so. TIA Paul I would like to thank all ( even flamers ) for their replies. Too many to reply to all at this point ( persons who had questions ) and things have really gotten totally blown out of proportion. I have written GardenTech and am waiting their reply. I've been to their site and now I know that the preharvest interval is 7 days for grapes. According to them: Q : How does Sevin control insects? A: Sevin has a dual mode-of-action - it works on contact and through ingestion. Sevin is non-systemic, which means it does not penetrate plant tissue - it stays on the outside. After controlling the targeted pest, Sevin is easily broken down in the environment. ( http://www.gardentech.com/sevin_fastfacts.asp#11G ) And I will write my local aggie extension service about my situation. Yes I made quite a few mistakes in my endevour as pointed out by so many. And yes I did receive a lot of good input and good constructive critism. As far as polluting the world with my careless recklessness, I will correct my ways. Moving to NC from MA I knew nothing about all this pesticide, herbicide and chemical fertilizer business. Here I found myself surrounded by crops of all kinds. The food belt.. And when those around me suggested Roundup around the house and anywhere my mower can't hit I thought they were crazy or lazy. Pesticides - what's a few bugs. I tried inventing my own pepper-soap solutions at first. And chemical fertilizers, no way. I saw the farmers out there spraying all kinds of stuff on them fields. It scared me - if I can smell it - I'm ingesting it. Not long after I met my girlfriend and her daddy - an 85 yo farmer with hundreds of acre that he still farmed. I ended up helping him on his farm. I never knew so many chemical odors existed. But that man could make crops. And that man is 85 yo and still farming ( he still climbs the corral gate instead of swinging it open ). And it was there that I learned that down in these parts (Sandhills)them weeds and bugs will take over without the use of chemicals. And although I haven't totally lost my fear of them, I began to see them as a necessary evil. And when I check out veggies in the local markets - I know what I'm eating. Yes I wash my store bought veggies, but one never knows for sure. I guess we can put this post to rest now. To the flamers - flame on. To those who actually wanted to help I thank you all for your input. If you had questions unanswered I appologize for not answering ( one person asked what type grape - not known. I got the vine 5 years ago from my neighbor who knew nothing about it. He was trying to get rid of his vine but gave me a cutting. It is a white variety, takes on a golden hue when ripe and very sweet. Very prolific producer and quite vigorous. Berries grow to about 5/8 inch when ripe, tightly packed clusters 4 - 8 inches in length. Early ripening - end of July to mid August. Fruity tasting wine when semi dry. Not sure what else to add ). = Paul = Basic premise I learned from the early things like VAX notes. With these electronic communications best practice is to assume you are writing to your best friend. Some of my friends are idiots and some are not. Discerning which is which is too much for me who just likes to rub or bend elbows on occasion. Still if I detect offensive I yield and help the other go by. Chinese phi lo stuff. Perhaps with a little help push ) Bill Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits. Jus' thought I'd ask... = Paul = |
#42
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits. Jus' thought I'd ask... = Paul = At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware. My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx = pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great job in removing their need to be around. SAD. I ran two international newsletters until my bossıs bossıs etc bragged then a VP of the company said ³What² shut me down as I was just the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is donıt miss it ). Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is. Bill -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
#43
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
Paul J. Dudley wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:45:55 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: Hmmm....I wonder how wine was produced before the advent of carbaryl? It was pretty good when they used amphoras and fumarias. But then they severed the wine in these very pretty lead glazed cups and a Gothic night descended on Europe. Things (flavor) started looking up again in the mid-1600s when cork stoppers came into use. In the mean, time beer and wine saved Europe from the main diseases of ground water. The same function that tea served in the East. Paul should check with the nearest ag consultant but my understanding is that nothing harmful to man can survive fermentation. All the same, you've been a naughty boy Paul. I know it wasn't your intent to bring about the downfall of Western Civilization (such as it is). You've got to be careful about unintended consequences. See that this doesn't happen again. I understand that they also burned sulfur wicks in their casks much like adding sodium metabisulfite as many ( can't say 'all' - might start another flame war ) now do. But ... Yes .. I promise to be more careful in the future ( .. so I won't start the world whining again ). I will chech with the aggies. I have written gardentech.com ( the company that forced me to use their dust ) and am waiting their reply. = Paul = Paul, since you are making wine I offer the following information. "Organic wine" may be hazardous to your health - depending on the wine makers practices. For example, if SO2 is not used, if the pH of the must is above 3.5, if there is extended contact with the lees, If cultured wine yeast and ML bacteria are not used then the probability of the formation of carcinogens is enhanced. Here is a post I contributed to the wine making news group: +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I always look for articles indicating positive health benefits of drinking wine and indeed there are many. I recently came across an article in "Practical Winery & Vineyard" by Robert Tracy with the heading of "Human health concerns associated with wine microorganisms" (pp 96-98). The partial information I summarize below is NOT an attempt to start religious wars over technique or scare anyone but to raise some concerns that we as wine makers/growers should know. Personally, I believe there are "probably" more health related issues in a can of soda than some of the material discussed below but perhaps we can make better wine if we are aware of some of these facts. Summary and quotes: "From a winemaking perspective, there are two types of compounds produced by wine microbes that have health implications for the consumer: biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate.**Biogenic amines have been shown to cause negative physiological effects in allergic humans (such as headaches, nausea, hot flashes), while ethyl carbamate is considered to be a probably carcinogen to humans.**The*probable*carcinogenic properties of ethyl carbamate are based on studies with experimental animals, there is not direct evidence of it causing cancer in humans." "The concentration and type of biogenic amines vary greatly in wines; however, generally red wines contain significantly more than white wines.**In*addition,*there*appears*to*be*a*direct correlation between elevated biogenic amines in wine, wine spoilage constituents (such as acetic acid, ethyl acetate, butyric acid, acetoin, and higher alcohol compounds), and malolactic fermentation." Because ethyl carbamate is a probable carcinogen, it is becoming the focus of international regulation, and so its formation must be managed properly both in the vineyard and during the winemaking process." "Even though both yeast and bacteria can generate precursors for ethyl carbamate formation, urea produced from wine yeast is thought to be the major precursor." Factors that affect formation "Throughout the winemaking process, a whole host of factors can influence the formation of biogenic amines including: 1)**initial*microbial*populations*present*on grapes; 2)**presence*of*precursor*amino*acids*in*grape juice; 3)**ageing*of*wine*on*wither*yeast*lees*(sur*lie ageing) or lees following malolactic fermentation; 4)**extended*grape*maceration; 5)**spontaneous*malolactic*fermentation*by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6)**number*of*lactic*acid*bacteria*that*are decarboxylase-positive: 7)**wine*pH; 8)**concentration*of*sulfur*dioxide*(SO2) following malolactic fermentation and during ageing; 9)**winery*sanitation*practices; 10)**yeast*strain;*and* 11)**fining*practices*(fining*white*wines*with bentonite may remove biogenic amines). Among these factors, it has been demonstrated that malolactic fermentation is the primary stage for biogenic amine formation during the winemaking process. Ethyl carbamate formation is affected by the following factors: 1)**argine*content*of*grapes; 2)**concentration*of*ethanol; 3)**nutrient*additions*to*must,*during*both alcoholic and malolactic fermentaitons; 4)**yeast*straiin; 5)**spontaneous*malolactid*fermentaion*by indigenous lactic acid bacteria; 6) ageing wine on yeast (lees (sur lie ageing); 7)**temperature*of*iwne*during*ageing*and shipment; 8)**duration*of*wine*ageing; 9)**wine*pH;*and 10)**wineery*sanitation*practices." "Recommendations to prevent formation of biogenic amines and ethyl carbamate Biogenic Amines if possible periodically monitor microbial populations on grapes to determine risk for biogenic amine producers. if possible, assess concentration of primary precursor amino acids in grapes and must. avoid spontaneous alcoholic fermentations and use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that lack or have minimal decarboxylase activity. Avoid extended ageing of wine on yeast or malolactic lees. Try to minimize extended grape maceration. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentations and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that lack or have minimal amino acid decarboxylase activitry. Try to avoid higher pH wines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus. When pH of wine is high, lysozyme can be added to remove the natural lactic acid bacteria. Immediately following malolactic fermentaion and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintan good sanitation practices during wine production. Ethyl Carbamate Avoid argine content of 1000 mg/L in juice. Avoid excessive nitrogen fertilization of vineyards. Periodically monitor nitrogen status of vines and soil. Test nitrogen status of juice. Avoid adding excessive nitrogen supplements; do not add urea. Use commercial strains of Saccharomyces cervisiae that are known to produce low levels of urea (Premier Cuvee (PdM) or Lallemand 71B) when juice has a high arginine content. Avoid ageing wine on yeast lees (sur lie ageing), which can liberate amino acids and proteins. Avoid spontaneous malolactic fermentatons and use commercial strains of Oenoccus oeni that do not have ability to produce high levels of citrulline. Avoid elevated temperatures during ageing and shipment of wine. If wines are going to be aged for an extendd period of time, it is advisable to periodically monitor ethyl carbamate levels. Try to avoid higher pH ines (above 3.7) since they allow proliferation of Lacto bacillus and Pedioccus. Immediately following malolactic fermentation and during wine ageing, maintain molecular SO2 levels of at least 0.4 to 0.5 ppm to prevent or minimize growth of lactic acid bacteria. Maintain good sanitation practices during wine production." I realize that amateur winemakers do not have the resources to monitor all of the above but we can control a good amount of them. I encourage anyone who is interested in the topic to pick up a copy of the magazine.**There*are*23 references cited at the end of the article.**I did not quote the article in the entirety but tried to summarize the main points. Paul |
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:27:29 -0400, Bill wrote:
In article , "Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Bill ... Did you work for DEC ? I started working at DEC in 82 at the Mill ( Maynard MA ). Worked from 82 - 96 ( got hit by the next to last wave of layoffs - before the were bought by Compaq ). Began as a mech designer - left as a Sr Info Sys Spec ( supporting VAX/VMS and then OpenVMS, Ultrix/UNIX ). Had a heart attack in 95 in the middle of an ALL-IN-1 trouble call - how rude. Got canned a year later with the rest of the burnouts and broken down misfits. Jus' thought I'd ask... = Paul = At one time in the VAX heyday I could walk down a hall and see a expert in computer science. This In a large company from Delaware. My boss told me to take care of making sure folks about the world had access to RS1. Seems RS1 needed a $. So I was able to grant access to many folks and I pointed out that LYNX was available at the $. Lynx = pre graphical interface to the internet. Mexican engineers flipped out in a joyous manner. Those DEC folks with physicists about did a great job in removing their need to be around. SAD. I ran two international newsletters until my bossıs bossıs etc bragged then a VP of the company said ³What² shut me down as I was just the lowest level employee. I know what ALL-IN-one is donıt miss it ). Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? Hope the heart is treating you well I know what CABG is. Bill I remember lynx very well. In fact I just had to use it the other day ( I use Slackware Linux. I was logged in under my own username the other day and needed to pull up an html file I had on my W2k partition. Instead of logging off and then logging in as root, I just pulled up a terminal window, went to superuser and pulled the file up in lynx ). Lynx was my first web experience - no more BBS's, no more gopher, or archie etc. The web was here and DEC had two gateways to the internet. I couldn't wait to get home to my vt100 and dial in my 300bps modem, fire up lynx and see what was out there.. ( although most web sites at the time were computer related in nature and content. Not much else ). And "$" command prompt. My handle was "sys$shrink". Reminds me of a time when I shutdown what I thought was my own system when I heard beeping going off all over the place and quickly realized I was logged into a cluster node instead... Shutdown the whole cluster.. I hid under a table.... @sys$system:shutdown .... ( ... boot prompt ). Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? Not familiar. Were they engineers ? = Paul = " Those were the days ... ( sigh ).. ." |
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Seven dust - Applied a month ago - Still toxic or not ?
In article ,
"Paul J. Dudley" wrote: Peter Mroz or Roy Beatty ring a pleasant bell? Not familiar. Were they engineers ? = Paul = " Those were the days ... ( sigh ).. ." Yes they were both engineers and we visited each otherıs homes in the day. Best Bill -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA |
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