On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 14:28:13 -0800, "gregpresley"
wrote:
wrote in message motives, cost/benefit, etc. Once you
get into the realm of which candidate
truly believes "Jesus Christ is my personal Savior", and how you would
prove
that, you've lost the ability to have a rational political discussion.

A Christian is by definition someone who believes that Jesus Christ is
their savior. Are you saying that Christians can't be reasoned with,
that they can't understand complex topics? Are Christians irrational?

It sure does sound like you're a religious bigot, though that seems to
be a politically correct form of bigotry these days. Shouldn't people
vote based on their personal beliefs?

Swyck

First of all, I consider myself Christian, so I don't look in the mirror
every morning and say "gosh, what an irrational creature you are".....LOL
But belief is private and acceptance of fine points of dogma, an individual
matter - not a matter for politics. . Over 2/3rds of the world's Christians
(Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians) believe that the defnition of
Christian is "follower of Christ" - embedded in that definition is, of
course, a belief that Jesus is the Savior, but also strong in that tradition
is the answer to the biblical question, "how will you know they are
Christians? You will know they are Christians by their love". In that
tradition of Christianity, people are not going to accept a statement of "I
have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior" from a public official (or
from any individual) for that matter, as being significant. They are going
to look for the acts, or the works, if you will, which translate belief into
action. And those acts, if a person has digested the new Testament, will
necessarily have to be fully living out the Beatitudes and similar
suggestions of Jesus on how to live a holy life. From a public policy
perspective, I have no interest in a politician's political beliefs, but if
he/she consistently votes in favor of policies that ease the lives of the
poor and downtrodden, whether for school lunch programs, or making sure that
children have shelter, on in international policies, if he/she votes for
sustained diplomacy for peace-making efforts above war, I have all the
"moral-values" information I need on that candidate - who could be
Christian, Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist , or atheist for all that I care.

Well said, and that's how it should be. You vote for those that are
applying and acting on your beliefs, as well as they can.

My contention was with your statement that you cannot have a rational
discussion with someone who considers "Jesus Christ as their savior."
Though I don't agree with their point of view, and don't follow it, I
also don't believe that the people making those distinctions when
voting are being unreasonable. There are many people that vote
entirely on the basis of Roe-Wade, the environment, the economy, how
the candidate looks or some other single issue. The politician they
are supporting may just be a vote grubber that will promise anything
to get elected. How is that any different or better?

I'd like to see your analysis of Kerry's voting groups for comparison.

Swyck

"gregpresley" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" How do you deal with the business about the end of the
world, when
unfortunate Jews, Buddhists, etc will be toast because they don't
believe
in
Jesus?

I don't concern myself with judgment day. The bible has many specific
injunction against doing that, most of which have been ignored by
Christians
of all denominations ever since. As a matter of fact, I'm personally more
interested in how I can make the world a better place while I'm alive than
what's going to happen to me after death. I would be astounded if God were
as "judgmental" as a lot of folks think he ought to be - (of course,
always
assuming that they themselves will be among the elect, and those they
don't
like will be hell-bound). But that point of view is not going to be heard
from any Christian pulpit anytime soon, I don't expect......LOL





You might get a kick out of the movie "Dogma", especially when god appears
at the end. :-) Great movie.

wrote in message motives, cost/benefit, etc. Once you
get into the realm of which candidate
truly believes "Jesus Christ is my personal Savior", and how you would
prove
that, you've lost the ability to have a rational political discussion.

A Christian is by definition someone who believes that Jesus Christ is
their savior. Are you saying that Christians can't be reasoned with,
that they can't understand complex topics? Are Christians irrational?

It sure does sound like you're a religious bigot, though that seems to
be a politically correct form of bigotry these days. Shouldn't people
vote based on their personal beliefs?

Swyck

First of all, I consider myself Christian, so I don't look in the mirror
every morning and say "gosh, what an irrational creature you are".....LOL
But belief is private and acceptance of fine points of dogma, an individual
matter - not a matter for politics. . Over 2/3rds of the world's Christians
(Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians) believe that the defnition of
Christian is "follower of Christ" - embedded in that definition is, of
course, a belief that Jesus is the Savior, but also strong in that tradition
is the answer to the biblical question, "how will you know they are
Christians? You will know they are Christians by their love". In that
tradition of Christianity, people are not going to accept a statement of "I
have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior" from a public official (or
from any individual) for that matter, as being significant. They are going
to look for the acts, or the works, if you will, which translate belief into
action. And those acts, if a person has digested the new Testament, will
necessarily have to be fully living out the Beatitudes and similar
suggestions of Jesus on how to live a holy life. From a public policy
perspective, I have no interest in a politician's political beliefs, but if
he/she consistently votes in favor of policies that ease the lives of the
poor and downtrodden, whether for school lunch programs, or making sure that
children have shelter, on in international policies, if he/she votes for
sustained diplomacy for peace-making efforts above war, I have all the
"moral-values" information I need on that candidate - who could be
Christian, Jew, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist , or atheist for all that I care.

escape expounded:

I didn't have time or desire to read the website, but I don't think religion has
any place in politics or government. No place at all.

You did read the website once, Victoria, when we were exchanging our
view. And I didn't say that religion had a place in politics, if you
actually read and comprehended what other people say (especially those
with differing views than you) you would have known that. But you are
so busy firing off at 'conservatives' you no longer comprehend what
they are saying.

As for this snipe:

No, that wasn't my intention at all. You simply don't sound like a very happy
person. It was sarcastic.

You have no idea of my state of mind, and actually couldn't be further
from the truth. You, my dear, are the one who is perennially unhappy.
Bitter, too. I've been around here for a long time, Victoria, I
remember nice exchanges with you, and I remember when you were the one
many of us were defending. That's been gone a long time.....

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

In article , "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"gregpresley" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" How do you deal with the business about the end of the
world, when
unfortunate Jews, Buddhists, etc will be toast because they don't
believe
in
Jesus?

I don't concern myself with judgment day. The bible has many specific
injunction against doing that, most of which have been ignored by
Christians
of all denominations ever since. As a matter of fact, I'm personally more
interested in how I can make the world a better place while I'm alive than
what's going to happen to me after death. I would be astounded if God were
as "judgmental" as a lot of folks think he ought to be - (of course,
always
assuming that they themselves will be among the elect, and those they
don't
like will be hell-bound). But that point of view is not going to be heard
from any Christian pulpit anytime soon, I don't expect......LOL





You might get a kick out of the movie "Dogma", especially when god appears
at the end. :-) Great movie.

That was a cool movie, & God was hot.

On the opposite extreme from that lovely comedy is the first Prophesy
movie, in which Christopher Walken plays the archangel Gabriel, to whom
God will no longer speak, & who has become the evil urge of god much more
menacing than Lucifer who only wants to tempt us but Gabriel is out to
destroy all the ugly mud-monkeys, who are us, believing as he does that if
he can destroy everything God loves, God will love him instead. The two
sequels aren't bad but don't stand up to the original which has a creepy
believability, since this wacked out Gabriel so greatly resembles many
fundamentalists who likewise believe the way back to God is by hating &
destroying things.

-paghat the ratgirl

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
Visit the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: http://www.paghat.com

"Doug Kanter" How do you deal with the business about the end of the
world, when
unfortunate Jews, Buddhists, etc will be toast because they don't believe
in
Jesus?

I don't concern myself with judgment day. The bible has many specific
injunction against doing that, most of which have been ignored by Christians
of all denominations ever since. As a matter of fact, I'm personally more
interested in how I can make the world a better place while I'm alive than
what's going to happen to me after death. I would be astounded if God were
as "judgmental" as a lot of folks think he ought to be - (of course, always
assuming that they themselves will be among the elect, and those they don't
like will be hell-bound). But that point of view is not going to be heard
from any Christian pulpit anytime soon, I don't expect......LOL

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 21:57:42 GMT, escape
wrote:

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 12:24:31 -0500, opined:

A Christian is by definition someone who believes that Jesus Christ is
their savior. Are you saying that Christians can't be reasoned with,
that they can't understand complex topics? Are Christians irrational?

It sure does sound like you're a religious bigot, though that seems to
be a politically correct form of bigotry these days. Shouldn't people
vote based on their personal beliefs?

Swyck

A Christian is not JUST someone who accepts Christ as their savior. They also
believe God created the heavens and earth, things possible and impossible.
Christians do not believe in evolution, as they are guided by the bible, who is
written by God and interpreted by man.

I know that many Christians believe in evolution, though there are
some that do not.

Yes, Christians can be reasoned with, but when it comes to things of science,
no, they cannot.

Yet there have been plenty of scientists that were Christians, some of
them deeply religious. I'm sure we could discuss science with them.
Again it comes down to what kind of Christians we're talking about.

How many fundamentalists are there that are really unwilling to listen
to other points of view? Listening is not the same thing as being
convinced or converted. Are there really 20 million of them, and is
that number really higher then other blocks of unreasonable people?

Swyck

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 17:43:46 -0500, Ann opined:

escape expounded:

I didn't have time or desire to read the website, but I don't think religion has
any place in politics or government. No place at all.

You did read the website once, Victoria, when we were exchanging our
view. And I didn't say that religion had a place in politics, if you
actually read and comprehended what other people say (especially those
with differing views than you) you would have known that. But you are
so busy firing off at 'conservatives' you no longer comprehend what
they are saying.

As for this snipe:

No, that wasn't my intention at all. You simply don't sound like a very happy
person. It was sarcastic.

You have no idea of my state of mind, and actually couldn't be further
from the truth. You, my dear, are the one who is perennially unhappy.
Bitter, too. I've been around here for a long time, Victoria, I
remember nice exchanges with you, and I remember when you were the one
many of us were defending. That's been gone a long time.....


In the case you haven't noticed, I don't have many bad words with anyone here.
That's why you don't come to my defense any more. I no longer get into the shit
flinging, but this particular subject was something I was a bit interested in.
My country has been hijacked in the name of Christ and republicans. Our
president is not a true republican, or Christian. He's a dummard. Everyone is
flying the coop. Oh well.





Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

expounded:

Listening is not the same thing as being
convinced or converted.

Yes, more listening and less converting is what we all need.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

In article , get-
says...
Christians do not believe in evolution, as they are guided by the bible, who is
written by God and interpreted by man.

Well, we know what end of the "Christian" spectrum you're on :-).

And apparently you're not guided by grammar either - "the bible, who is"
- really!

--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description

"gregpresley" wrote in message ...

I don't concern myself with judgment day. The bible has many specific
injunction against doing that, most of which have been ignored by Christians
of all denominations ever since. As a matter of fact, I'm personally more
interested in how I can make the world a better place while I'm alive than
what's going to happen to me after death. I would be astounded if God were
as "judgmental" as a lot of folks think he ought to be - (of course, always
assuming that they themselves will be among the elect, and those they don't
like will be hell-bound). But that point of view is not going to be heard
from any Christian pulpit anytime soon, I don't expect......LOL




Here is poem I like and don't know who wrote it. Don't even know it's
name. I've had it for years and never know where it is, but It seems
to surface about the time I get really smug and self-rightious !!! It
seems to know when I need it!

I dreamed death came the other night
And Heaven's gate swung wide:
With kindly grace an Angel
Ushered me inside.
And there---to my astonishment---
Stood folks I'd known on earth:
Some I had judged and labeled as
Unfit or little worth.

Indignent words rose to my lips
But never were set free-----
For every face showed stunned surprise---

NO ONE EXPECTED ME !!!!

leo/lee

On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:21:23 -0800, Larry Blanchard
opined:

In article , get-
says...
Christians do not believe in evolution, as they are guided by the bible, who is
written by God and interpreted by man.

Well, we know what end of the "Christian" spectrum you're on :-).

And apparently you're not guided by grammar either - "the bible, who is"
- really!

Sorry about the grammatical error. I'm not on any Christian spectrum at all. I
have absolutely no belief in a creator at all. Not on any level.





Need a good, cheap, knowledge expanding present for yourself or a friend?
http://www.animaux.net/stern/present.html

"escape" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:28 -0500, opined:

I know that many Christians believe in evolution, though there are
some that do not.

A person who believes in evolution cannot call themselves a Christian.
Christ
is not the only thing which mandates firm belief in him. God mandates in
the
bible that he created all. No pastor, priest, reverend or preacher in
Christianity believes in evolution.

Two weeks back, PBS aired a Nova show which showed how scientists are
piecing together the beginnings of quadrupeds, starting with certain types
of fish, and tracking the increments by which a fish finally left the water
and walked on land. Assuming several million Christians watched this show,
how do you suppose they felt about it? Did they consider it to be in the
same category as Star Trek?

Its been said if Jesus was alive today he would be a big fan of both Nova
and Star Trek.

He definitely would have been a big Kerry supporter too!

He probably wouldn't be a big fan of Desperate Housewives though.

Dubya claims to speak directly to God but his son (God's not Dubya's) says
he's really been in cahoots with that other guy.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
"escape" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 19:23:28 -0500, opined:

I know that many Christians believe in evolution, though there are
some that do not.

A person who believes in evolution cannot call themselves a Christian.
Christ
is not the only thing which mandates firm belief in him. God mandates
in
the
bible that he created all. No pastor, priest, reverend or preacher in
Christianity believes in evolution.

Two weeks back, PBS aired a Nova show which showed how scientists are
piecing together the beginnings of quadrupeds, starting with certain types
of fish, and tracking the increments by which a fish finally left the
water
and walked on land. Assuming several million Christians watched this show,
how do you suppose they felt about it? Did they consider it to be in the
same category as Star Trek?

"escape" wrote in message
...
It's unreasonable for people to elect a man who is grossly incompetent
merely
because he says praise god, and uses terms like "The Lord." The man will
go
down as being one of, if not THE worst president in American history.
People
elected him based on something which scares me. The future is dim, in my
opinion. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christians.

Everyone thinks of W as a religious man, but I've yet to find any reference
to him actually talking about his religious beliefs. Can anyone point out an
instance when he has stated specifics? Thanks.

Karen