I'm worried about putting denture adhesive on the fish... I'm not sure
if what I got is the right stuff or not and it just seems like a
really foreign substance. Given my experience of killing the fish by
doing too much, that part makes me nervous.

We only have chain pet stores which are poorly stocked for fish first
aid, so I ordered some bio bandage and malachite green for at least
next time, if not this time.

I came very close to catching it yesterday, but my bird netting was a
bit too short and the daylight ran out. I got a larger roll of bird
netting and I'm sure I'll get it today. Once I catch it, I'll take
some better pictures and make some slides prior to dipping.

What is DI water?

Thanks,

Dave

I got it in. It looks really bad. That eye is glazed over again.

I checked under the microscope for bad things, and didn't see any with
slides made from the wound area, as well as normal swipes.

I gave it a salt dip but had to pull it out at 4 minutes. It was on
its side and shocky with its mouth stuck open. I put it in the
aquarium and after maybe 5 or 10 minutes it came around. It's now
swimming, but clearly annoyed at being confined.

Man, that wound is a bloody-looking mess.

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html
See the 4/22/08 image.

I put a large one up there since I finally got a good view of things.
The other side of the fish looks good.

Dave

This was an E-mail reply to Dave, but in case other were interested in what
I was suggesting:

I got the fish in. I've taken a picture and posted it at the usual place:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html

See the last picture.

Oh yes, that definitely needs to be scrubbed. Your choice if it is salt
paste or H2O2. I've always used H2O2 myself. Course don't get it in the
gills.

at .36%. Is that ok?

Yes, that's fine.

How do I clean the area with the hydrogen peroxide? Do I want to remove the
loose stuff, or just swab the wound gently?

Have paper towels and Q-tips on hand. In a circular motion scrub the area,
go under and remove any loose scales around the edges. Rinse, dab dry, and
put in the Tricide Neo. This is all easier to do if you put the fish to
sleep with Finquel, but if you haven't had a class in using it, I'm
hesitant to suggest it. But if you want to try, I'll try to talk you thru
using it.

As far as the Tricide-Neo, put solution in a bag, then fish, and hold bag
up so fish is immersed. In reality it isn't as bad as it seems.

Or you could scrub, iodine, antibiotic-type ointment and denture adhesive
powder
(sorry, it wasn't till later I saw that it was the powdered form that is
suggested not the other version)
and wait 3 days while the fish is fasting so it doesn't mess up the
Tricide-Neo, but we could also lose precious time if we wait. If you choose
the above, you won't scrub it again prior to the Tricide-Neo dipping.

And DI water is just distilled water?

Yes. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Thanks for the info. I put in a few pieces of medi-carp when I put the
fish in the tank, and I only see one now, so it looks like the fish is
eating again. I'm going to take that as a sign that it's relaxed
enough for the next step. I'll do the hydrogen peroxide and Tricide-
Neo.

I have Finquel here, but I'm concerned that I won't notice if the fish
is in distress if I sedate it, so for this dip I'll keep it alert.
Given the reaction it had to the salt dip, I think that might be best.

I'm a little confused about the last part about fasting. Am I supposed
to stop feeding the fish while I'm treating it?

Thanks,

Dave

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:09:11 EDT, wrote:

I'm a little confused about the last part about fasting. Am I supposed
to stop feeding the fish while I'm treating it?
Dave

That's best, other wise they tend to crap in the Tricide-Neo and since you
have to reuse it for 2 more times, not good. I guess you can strain it thru
a coffee filter or something? I'm sure it is on the directions.

Back when I had my serious problem it was early spring before I'd started
feeding much, so the fish didn't have much in them or had quit eating
anyway. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Whew. Ok, I've cleaned and dipped the fish. We both survived, although
I think it was more stressful for me.

Photos at the usual place:
http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html

I also included a left side shot that shows how much better the fish
is on that side.

Looking at the post-salt-dip shot and the latest right side shot, it
looks like the wound got pretty cleaned up by the hydrogen peroxide.
There wasn't a lot of loose matter to remove. I'm noticing more blood
in the fins now. I'm not sure if that happened before or during the
Tricide-Neo dip. The fish didn't seem to mind the dip at all.

The fish is active and PO'd at me.

I'm bringing the tank temp up to 78 F.

Dave

Well, morning came and the fish is still alive! It's swimming around
quite actively and looks pretty good. I still see blood in the tail
and fins. Most notably in the tail.

The water in the tank is a little cloudy this morning. I'm not sure if
that's a reaction from raising the temperature or if it's being caused
by the food from yesterday, but I'll do a partial water change in a
bit.

red in the fins is both stress and bad water. Use the tub to tub method
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/d...htm#TUB_TO_TUB
this will move the fish away from bacteria and wastes in the water. Make sure there
is a bit of salt in the water to help heal and help osmotic pressure.

Just to be on the safe side, do the peroxide dip to make SURE to get rid of gyros and
dacs.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/d...m#peroxide_dip

10, 10, 10 I REPEAT 10 SECONDS ONLY

you CAN use mercurochrome on a swab on the wound. also, make sure the "tub" or
whatever is netted on the top so that fish doesnt jump. Ingrid

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:58:42 EDT, Pond Addict wrote:

Well, morning came and the fish is still alive! It's swimming around
quite actively and looks pretty good. I still see blood in the tail
and fins. Most notably in the tail.

The water in the tank is a little cloudy this morning. I'm not sure if
that's a reaction from raising the temperature or if it's being caused
by the food from yesterday, but I'll do a partial water change in a
bit.

Are the blood streaks I'm noticing in the fins and tail most likely
caused by septicemia or some other bacterial infection? If so, do I
need to do something more than a Tricide-Neo dip for that? My
understanding is that T-N doesn't help with systemic bacterial
infections. Or, can stress also cause a fish to bleed like that?

I'm dipping for the second day in a couple of hours. Today the fish
seems less mad at me and quite relaxed. It's active and the wound area
looks less raw. It's more "faded" red than "I'm going to bleed all
over you" red. I think the eye might be a little better too. There's
like a growth, almost like a bump of skin, on the outside of it in the
center. Maybe a bacterial infection? The eye seems to be working fine
otherwise. Slime coat is good, and has been from the beginning.

My biggest concern right now is the blood streaks I'm seeing in the
extremities. I'm hoping that the fish isn't failing internally while
I'm treating its external issues.

Water is at 78 degrees, .34% salt.

By the way, I never mentioned how I caught the fish. I used lawn
stakes to anchor one end of the bird netting along the shore, then
sunk it across the pond with small stones and waited for the fish to
cross over so I could scoop it up. I spent maybe 2 hours setting all
this up and was patiently waiting and admiring my foolproof trap when
the fish got spooked by me and went into the same corner where I
originally rescued it. In the end, I caught it with a hand net.
Figures.

Dave

On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:47:15 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

Are the blood streaks I'm noticing in the fins and tail most likely
caused by septicemia or some other bacterial infection?

Imo, it is just stress from the Tricide-Neo. I've seen fish bleed from the
gills due to the stress. I wouldn't do anything more than you have since
you scraped & scoped the fish and didn't see anything on the slide.

The main thing is watch the water quality in the sick tank. What I'm
reading so far is it sounds like the fish is responding well to the Tricide
Neo. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Yes, I believe it's responding very well. The second Tricide-Neo dip
went as smoothly as the first. Oddly, the tail blood doesn't look as
bad after the second dip. Maybe that's my imagination, but that's how
it appears right now. Stress as a cause would definitely make sense,
so I'll hope for that and keep an eye on it just in case. I'll post
some new pictures in the morning. The wound area is doing much better.

I did another partial water change tonight because the water was still
cloudy (I'm thinking either the food yesterday or blood from the
fish), and then I bumped the salt back up to .3%. It's staying clear
now. I'm keeping a close eye on the water quality (running tests and
such) since the fish is huge for this tank. I've also got lots of air
going in and I'm keeping the solids out. Not an optimal sick tank, but
the fish has adapted to it and I believe I'm on top of it.

I'd switch to the tub to tub method, but I think I'm able to maintain
the water quality and the fish seems relaxed where it is. It likes to
look around at everything, which it couldn't do in a tub. Plus, it's
easier for me to keep an eye on behind glass. Since I'm not running
into problems, I think I'll just leave it like it is for now. I'll
definitely keep that in mind for the future, though. Thanks.

Dave

blood streaks are most likely stress or water quality.
cloudiness on eye is BAD slime coat. just wait. it will resolve. Ingrid


On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:47:15 EDT, Pond Addict wrote:
Are the blood streaks I'm noticing in the fins and tail most likely
caused by septicemia or some other bacterial infection?

There's
like a growth, almost like a bump of skin, on the outside of it in the
center. Slime coat is good, and has been from the beginning.

I've posted new images taken 12 hours after the second Tricide-Neo
dip:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html
See the 4/24/08 pictures.

The improvement is noticeable.

Do I only do one more Tricide-Neo dip? The instructions say I can keep
doing it every day or every other day for a week.

Thanks,

Dave

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:06:05 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

I've posted new images taken 12 hours after the second Tricide-Neo
dip:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html
See the 4/24/08 pictures.

The improvement is noticeable.

Do I only do one more Tricide-Neo dip? The instructions say I can keep
doing it every day or every other day for a week.

Thanks,

Dave

Kind of up to you, but I only did it the 3 times. Also depends on how clean
the Tricide-Neo stays. About the 3rd time it gets pretty smelly due to all
the slime coat sloughing off. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

are those missing scales on the "good side"? if the tricide-neo is antibiotic, keep
doing the dips. I would also recommend triple antibiotic CREME from the drug store.
rub that on all areas wounds and places without scales. Ingrid

On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 14:06:05 EDT, Pond Addict wrote:

I've posted new images taken 12 hours after the second Tricide-Neo
dip:

http://homepage.mac.com/pondstuff/PhotoAlbum1.html
See the 4/24/08 pictures.

The improvement is noticeable.

Do I only do one more Tricide-Neo dip? The instructions say I can keep
doing it every day or every other day for a week.

Thanks,

Dave