On Wed, 04 Jun 2003 08:43:48 -0500, dave weil
wrote:

On 4 Jun 2003 08:35:06 -0500, (lms) wrote:


Weird - you revel over 12 foot lanky sparse looking Mr. Lincolns but
you wouldn't want *this* plant - which has obviously grown to be what
it wants to be, which is a huge plant overloaded with blossoms?

But he would. Clearly lms has been silent too long. Either that or you
need what someone once called a secret decoder ring.




Well, different strokes I suppose...

In article , lms
wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article , lms
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The Queen of Denmark, I've seen impressive pics of this rose, never made
a connection though. I grow another alba, Felicite Parmentier but I don't
see much of it, have to check on it now and again,

Here's one they can see from outer space.
http://www.rosefog.us/Roseoftheday/K...anDanemark.jpg


it grows next to Trier.
Considered moving it but you don't hang around for 200 years or whatever
if you're some kinda wimp rose that can't take a little competition.

Trier sounds like my kinda rose. I read somewhere that a lot of the
Trier sold in USA are Moonlight. What do I know. I grow Moonlight, and
it taint nearly as big as you Trier. Wide and layered, not big and
tall.

Wow, what a scam, what a travesty, I grew Moonlight for several years
actually.
A few years back I moved a bunch of roses and dropped the level of this
one area down to its original level. I left Moonlight to its fate which it
finally met last year. The stickiness and the flowers, to some degree, are
similar, I guess they'd have to be. heheh. Seriously I used to pamper that
thing--and it's unforgiving and a mean sob-- but it just never wanted to grow,
never appreciated all those times I pulled the tall grass outa the beeeeitch.
And watered it special.
Moonlight, a rose named Moonlight should be a no-brainer, should kill
everything under it, not have to worry about gd grass. I think I was taken
in by the line in the catalog that went something like 'lights up the night
garden like searchlights'.

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight in the
night garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep it alive, you
wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.


http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

What, a rose bigger than a weeping mulberry? That's good. If this is
the Willits hybrid sempervirens, it probably isn't hardy. Tsk tsk. You
can't have it.

I once had bindweed pop out from under a light switchplate,
inside wall. Replaced some siding yesterday, there were a couple sections
someone was trying to weave a basket or make a door mat behind which.

What a bad bad dog. UC Davis says the vertical roots can reach depths
of 20 feet or more... its root and rhizome growth can reach 2-1/2 to 5
tons per acre. Came through my living room wall in the wall outlet,
behind the shingles, under the building paper, through the plywood,
around the framing and out the outlet. And my family is worried about
ants.

In article , dave weil
wrote:

On 4 Jun 2003 08:35:06 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...

In article , lms
wrote:

In article ,
says...

You know, you really need to grow some ramblers in there. This pup is
12 feet tall on a post (I found the previous post it killed) and then
weeps to the ground. If you use your imagination, you can see the canes
all perfectly parallel and trained up and around the posts. I bought
one to shamelessly copy. Got to use pressure treated, 6 in. lumber, 3,
4 bags of Redimix. A couple day's work when the fog returns. R.
Sempervirens hybrid, I think. Only 5 leave leaflests, dark green. Not
to mention mauve. Looks as good as any tree, only it's 15 times the
work.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

Weird - you revel over 12 foot lanky sparse looking Mr. Lincolns but
you wouldn't want *this* plant - which has obviously grown to be what
it wants to be, which is a huge plant overloaded with blossoms?

Well, different strokes I suppose...

He wants it, don't believe a word he wrote.

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight in the
night garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep it alive, you
wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

She lied.
I've seen them grown all over Iowa in Zone 4.
I grow several myself. Buff Beauty, Cornelia, Prosperity
Darlow's Enigma, Baby's blanket, Belinda.
No kill at all.

All came through just fine on their own roots.

I have a friend in Nebraska who grows BB
own root It dies to the ground every year
then comes back to a 4' bush by fall.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City

As a corollary everyone gives HM's
a Zone 6 rating thinking the musk rose
sets the limit. But most actually have very little
musk blood in them. I'd say the whole HM
cold rating is screwed up. Try to follow
peoples 'real world' experience.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City

"Theo Asir" wrote in message
news:71b7afb3d5c2f679f33543e348d8a2c3@TeraNews...


Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight in the
night garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep it alive, you
wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

She lied.
I've seen them grown all over Iowa in Zone 4.
I grow several myself. Buff Beauty, Cornelia, Prosperity
Darlow's Enigma, Baby's blanket, Belinda.
No kill at all.

All came through just fine on their own roots.

I have a friend in Nebraska who grows BB
own root It dies to the ground every year
then comes back to a 4' bush by fall.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City

In article 71b7afb3d5c2f679f33543e348d8a2c3@TeraNews, Theo Asir
wrote:

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight in the
night garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep it alive, you
wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

She lied.

I'll assume you're using up your poetic license on that assessment. I'm
sure she didn't lie and was speaking from her experience in the quirky
eastern Sierra. Many winters are mild. Then it can go down to -15 F for
a week in December with daytime temps no higher than 15 F. It is mild
in the late winter, when the cherries bloom, and invariably snows the
week of April 24. The last freeze date is late in May. It has extremely
low annual rainfall and very drying winds. Add it all up and her
experience could be very different than the same zone in the midwest. I
have little doubt that New Mexico is more like Nevada than Iowa.

I've seen them grown all over Iowa in Zone 4.
I grow several myself. Buff Beauty, Cornelia, Prosperity
Darlow's Enigma, Baby's blanket, Belinda.
No kill at all.

I've heard Darlow's Enigma is very hardy.

All came through just fine on their own roots.

That's another variable.

I have a friend in Nebraska who grows BB
own root It dies to the ground every year
then comes back to a 4' bush by fall.

All valuable information, just like the information that there are
places in New York that are nominally Zone 7 where lots of things die
during the winter, where winter protection is problematic because of
high humidity and rainfaill, freeze thaw cycles and thin, rocky soils.
I'm not sure I would characterize reporting these differences as lies.

Cass wrote:

All valuable information, just like the information that there are
places in New York that are nominally Zone 7 where lots of things die
during the winter, where winter protection is problematic because of
high humidity and rainfaill, freeze thaw cycles and thin, rocky soils.
I'm not sure I would characterize reporting these differences as lies.

It is sound advice to go by people's "Real World" experiences with
respect to HM and their cold tolerance. Hmmm ....

Morpheus: Have you ever had a dream Neo that you were so sure was real.
What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the
difference between that dream world and the real world?

Interesting analysis of some of the variables in rose-growing in
different places, Cass. For those in cold places where freeze-thaw is
not a big factor, anyone who lives in a zone with a higher USDA number
must seem less qualified to talk about cold tolerance. However, as you
point out, the Eastern Sierra is a world unto itself, west of the
Rockies so much is different from the East of it, west of the
Alleghenies is all New World, and only those of us who have tried to
garden in wildly varying places might appreciate how Forsythia can be
grown but not bloom in parts of the Mid-West, may be, for example.

--
Radika
California
USDA 9 / Sunset 15

She lied.

I'll assume you're using up your poetic license on that assessment. I'm
sure she didn't lie and was speaking from her experience in the quirky
eastern Sierra. Many winters are mild. Then it can go down to -15 F for

Sorry about that! I was having a rough day
and terminology leaked through.
Its amazing how rude people can
desensitize your bad language.

But yes, HM grow wonderfully in the Midwest.
They are one of our treasures.

--
Theo in Zone 5
Kansas City

In article ,
says...

http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

Weird - you revel over 12 foot

Try 17 foot, maybe.

lanky sparse looking Mr. Lincolns

I think you and your like-minded heroine belong together. You know, I don't
take kindly to people being too critical of a plant about which one gardener
from Chicago once told me, in a state of purest awe, 'Roses don't grow like
this in Illinois'. It was July and it had... ***leaves.

I had to cut at least 60 percent of this plant down just so I could walk
around it--I was having to walk to Dallas and then to El Paso and back just to
get around it. I tolerated its 12 foot horizontals and then multiple 10 foot
verticals off those for many many years. I've always considered it nothing
less than majestic, and almost every new person who's ever seen it has had some
kind of reaction. Recently the New Jersey unit's comments on this grope were
a case in point.
Being too critical of King Abraham is akin to talking to your Queen Mother
about gravity.

And then of course my rain forest grew up, this has had some effect, but less
on this one than some others. I wouldn't trade my rain forest for all of
Portland, don't get me wrong.


but
you wouldn't want *this* plant - which has obviously grown to be what
it wants to be, which is a huge plant overloaded with blossoms?

'blossoms', I have always thought, is a very feminine term.
I don't have blossoms. bcd uses this term all the time, makes me cringe every
time I hear it. How do these things happen?


Well, different strokes I suppose...

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, agreed. I guess I have
to spell it out, how firmly was my tongue planted in my cheek?
Is that enough of a hint?

m






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On 6 Jun 2003 02:05:42 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

Weird - you revel over 12 foot

Try 17 foot, maybe.

Sorry - didn't mean to belittle your grand achievement.

lanky sparse looking Mr. Lincolns

I think you and your like-minded heroine belong together. You know, I don't
take kindly to people being too critical of a plant about which one gardener
from Chicago once told me, in a state of purest awe, 'Roses don't grow like
this in Illinois'. It was July and it had... ***leaves.

Awwww pumpkin, I'm sorry that I ticked you off. It's just that the
picture you posted didn't portray the plant in a very good light. IOW,
it looked pretty ugly. Sort of like a larger version of my Touch of
Class, which I find a pretty ugly plant, structure wise.

I had to cut at least 60 percent of this plant down just so I could walk
around it--I was having to walk to Dallas and then to El Paso and back just to
get around it. I tolerated its 12 foot horizontals and then multiple 10 foot
verticals off those for many many years. I've always considered it nothing
less than majestic,

That's because, for you, bigger seems better. Which is why I was
surprised that you didn't fall all over yourself over Cass' picture.
Oh wait, most of what you grow is sprawling and ungainly (to my eye
that is). There doesn't seem to be a place in your garden for a
well-shaped mass of blosso...ooops, I mean blooms. Of course, it's
hard to tell since most of the links to your roses on your website are
broken. Therefore, I have to rely on what you post here.

and almost every new person who's ever seen it has had some
kind of reaction. Recently the New Jersey unit's comments on this grope were
a case in point.
Being too critical of King Abraham is akin to talking to your Queen Mother
about gravity.

Weird. You go ballistic over a plant that *I* happen to like and only
because of its NAME. How weird is that?

And then of course my rain forest grew up, this has had some effect, but less
on this one than some others. I wouldn't trade my rain forest for all of
Portland, don't get me wrong.


but
you wouldn't want *this* plant - which has obviously grown to be what
it wants to be, which is a huge plant overloaded with blossoms?

'blossoms', I have always thought, is a very feminine term.
I don't have blossoms. bcd uses this term all the time, makes me cringe every
time I hear it. How do these things happen?

Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

BTW, whether you like it or not, you've got blossoms. Look it up. And
your not-so-subtle reference to my sexuality is noted. But I'm man
enough to just laugh it off.

Well, different strokes I suppose...

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, agreed. I guess I have
to spell it out, how firmly was my tongue planted in my cheek?
Is that enough of a hint?

When was your tongue planted in your cheek - the way you describe Mr.
Lincoln?

I guess I've ticked you off since you're using my name in a pretty
disrespectful manner. Of course, that seems to be the way of most word
bullies. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Sorry about
that.

In article ,
says...

Trier sounds like my kinda rose. I read somewhere that a lot of the
Trier sold in USA are Moonlight. What do I know. I grow Moonlight, and
it taint nearly as big as you Trier. Wide and layered, not big and
tall.

Wow, what a scam, what a travesty, I grew Moonlight for several years
actually.
A few years back I moved a bunch of roses and dropped the level of this
one area down to its original level. I left Moonlight to its fate which it
finally met last year. The stickiness and the flowers, to some degree, are
similar, I guess they'd have to be. heheh. Seriously I used to pamper that
thing--and it's unforgiving and a mean sob-- but it just never wanted to
grow,
never appreciated all those times I pulled the tall grass outa the
beeeeitch.
And watered it special.
Moonlight, a rose named Moonlight should be a no-brainer, should kill
everything under it, not have to worry about gd grass. I think I was taken
in by the line in the catalog that went something like 'lights up the night
garden like searchlights'.

Yeah, some northern roser used to wax poetic about Moonlight in the
night garden. Smells good. How the hell did he keep it alive, you
wonder. HM's aren't terribly hardy, Regina tells me.

every aspect of Moonlight was a surprise and disappointment. I will faithfully
cultivate any rose I plant, meaning I will keep the tall grass generally out of
its face while it's getting extablished, but at some point I expect the rose
to help me out some. This one was simply content with bloodying my knuckles
and the reward was way below the bottom line of what was necessary. So I
left it to its own designs, which were totally predictable. I think names like
Moonlight should be reserved for roses which grow everywhere there's moonlight.
After this experience, right or wrong, I have left all Hybrid Musks on the
catalog pages.
It's one of the more ambiguous rose classifications in the first place--
the parentage of Moonlight is Trier x Sulphurea. Trier is a Hybrid Multiflora
and Sulphurea is a Tea. So where's the Musk?
Tea Roses aren't particularly known for their hardiness? hahahaha


http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really
obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

What, a rose bigger than a weeping mulberry? That's good. If this is
the Willits hybrid sempervirens, it probably isn't hardy. Tsk tsk. You
can't have it.

heh


I once had bindweed pop out from under a light switchplate,
inside wall. Replaced some siding yesterday, there were a couple sections
someone was trying to weave a basket or make a door mat behind which.

What a bad bad dog. UC Davis says the vertical roots can reach depths
of 20 feet or more... its root and rhizome growth can reach 2-1/2 to 5
tons per acre.

good god. I heard a grown cottonwood does 2500 gallons a day. My sand point
well goes down 20 feet and things start getting moist about 3. The first
good earthquake, we're gonna rock. We had a 2ie the other day.


Came through my living room wall in the wall outlet,
behind the shingles, under the building paper, through the plywood,
around the framing and out the outlet.

the year we moved here I thought 'what a pretty little weed' and better that
than nothing. That lasted not very long.


And my family is worried about
ants.

have you heard about the peanut butter remedy? I haven't tried it, have been
meaning to.

m



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In article ,
says...

On 6 Jun 2003 02:05:42 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really
obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

Weird - you revel over 12 foot

Try 17 foot, maybe.

Sorry - didn't mean to belittle your grand achievement.

You're not sorry and you meant all words of all insults, but it's no
grand achievement of mine, I just planted it and watered it and occasionally
heaved great shovelsfull of horse manure way high in the air so when it came
down Mr. Lincoln could put it where he wanted it.



lanky sparse looking Mr. Lincolns

I think you and your like-minded heroine belong together. You know, I don't
take kindly to people being too critical of a plant about which one gardener
from Chicago once told me, in a state of purest awe, 'Roses don't grow like
this in Illinois'. It was July and it had... ***leaves.

Awwww pumpkin,

pumpkin. hahahaha.


I'm sorry that I ticked you off. It's just that the
picture you posted didn't portray the plant in a very good light. IOW,
it looked pretty ugly. Sort of like a larger version of my Touch of
Class, which I find a pretty ugly plant, structure wise.

What would you know about struc ture, you're still stuck in the hybrid tea
rut.


I had to cut at least 60 percent of this plant down just so I could walk
around it--I was having to walk to Dallas and then to El Paso and back just
to
get around it. I tolerated its 12 foot horizontals and then multiple 10 foot
verticals off those for many many years. I've always considered it nothing
less than majestic,

That's because, for you, bigger seems better.

Bigger is almost always better in all things roses. With new mini
introductions and at rose shows they have to beat them back with sticks.
You see, elemento, the word BIG is a STAPLE in rose catalogs and everywhere
else in life.
Much much better to have a BIG The Fair than a puny The Fairy, no?
Why just today I think I read the troll saying how much she like BIG, GORGEOUS
roses, you should know which post I'm talking about, you've had your nose there
for about a year now.


Which is why I was
surprised that you didn't fall all over yourself over Cass' picture.

I'm not surprised that you're surprised cause you are thick, you can't even
unnerstand it when I flat out say my comments were tongue in cheek.
Of course you read Cass' follow-up. Well, what she said...go with that one.


Oh wait, most of what you grow is sprawling and ungainly (to my eye
that is). There doesn't seem to be a place in your garden for a
well-shaped mass of blosso...ooops, I mean blooms. Of course, it's
hard to tell since most of the links to your roses on your website are
broken. Therefore, I have to rely on what you post here.

One, remember the hybrid tea rut, and to offer as a rebutt 96 pics of what's
blooming toDay! to the tripe you speak would be a waste of my time.
But I've been doing that anyway. With my cheap digi cam. I don't much like
it.
Two, none of my rose pic links, few that nthey are currently, are broken. The
pics I post here go in the same directory as those on my website, sometimes I
link them there, sometimes I don't.
Some people let Netscape's cache control them instead of the other way around.
Or Internet Exploder, same difference.


and almost every new person who's ever seen it has had some
kind of reaction. Recently the New Jersey unit's comments on this grope
were
a case in point.
Being too critical of King Abraham is akin to talking to your Queen Mother
about gravity.

Weird. You go ballistic over a plant that *I* happen to like and only
because of its NAME. How weird is that?

How is that weird, the world revolves around words that give off bad vibes.
You have a strange idea of ballistic.


And then of course my rain forest grew up, this has had some effect, but less
on this one than some others. I wouldn't trade my rain forest for all of
Portland, don't get me wrong.


but
you wouldn't want *this* plant - which has obviously grown to be what
it wants to be, which is a huge plant overloaded with blossoms?

'blossoms', I have always thought, is a very feminine term.
I don't have blossoms. bcd uses this term all the time, makes me cringe
every
time I hear it. How do these things happen?

Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.



BTW, whether you like it or not, you've got blossoms.

No blossoms. Blooms. Flaures too.

Look it up. And
your not-so-subtle reference to my sexuality is noted. But I'm man
enough to just laugh it off.

I'd suggest the ACLU but I've demonstrated time and again I don't give a
sheeeeeit whether you're a he a she or an it.
Blossom is what you would call a pig, or maybe some farmer's daughter, like
in some joke maybe.



Well, different strokes I suppose...

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, agreed. I guess I
have
to spell it out, how firmly was my tongue planted in my cheek?
Is that enough of a hint?

When was your tongue planted in your cheek - the way you describe Mr.
Lincoln?

Oh, so you *did know I was talking about Cass' rose. Yet you refuse to admit
it and hassle me anyway. Rock on, dude. rgr 2003, maaaaaan. Why we
got 'Hate' threads now, and all the predictable participants. And a few
unwarys and people who don't buy that 'ugly rose' stuff which seems to float
your boat.


I guess I've ticked you off since you're using my name in a pretty
disrespectful manner.

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, that's still agreed.
That is your name, isn't it?
People can call me by my name, my first name, my last name-- I don't care.
People can't call Some people by their first name or their last name cause
they like to put up walls and veils of anonymity, you should know all about
that, hanging out here like you do.
Oh wait, what was that you said? Different storkes? For different dorkes?


Of course, that seems to be the way of most word
bullies. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Sorry about
that.

Sorry Weil, that word's already taken. And remember, you're the one calling
someone's rose 'ugly'. And I wasn't even talking to you. The person I was
talking to you was smart enough to recognize when someones pullin her leg.

m

oh, almost forgot
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/ros99.htm



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On 7 Jun 2003 23:24:37 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 6 Jun 2003 02:05:42 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...

http://home.earthlink.net/~cbernstei...ages/Flora.jpg

well there it is now. Cass, that's fairly obscene. No, it's really
obscene.
I wouldn't want to attract that much attention, it's scary.

Weird - you revel over 12 foot

Try 17 foot, maybe.

Sorry - didn't mean to belittle your grand achievement.

You're not sorry and you meant all words of all insults, but it's no
grand achievement of mine, I just planted it and watered it and occasionally
heaved great shovelsfull of horse manure way high in the air so when it came
down Mr. Lincoln could put it where he wanted it.

Coming from the king of sinde, sidearmed insults, I'll take your
comment as high praise.

lanky sparse looking Mr. Lincolns

I think you and your like-minded heroine belong together. You know, I don't
take kindly to people being too critical of a plant about which one gardener
from Chicago once told me, in a state of purest awe, 'Roses don't grow like
this in Illinois'. It was July and it had... ***leaves.

Awwww pumpkin,

pumpkin. hahahaha.


I'm sorry that I ticked you off. It's just that the
picture you posted didn't portray the plant in a very good light. IOW,
it looked pretty ugly. Sort of like a larger version of my Touch of
Class, which I find a pretty ugly plant, structure wise.

What would you know about struc ture, you're still stuck in the hybrid tea
rut.

Ahhhh, so that snide comment that you made in the other post *WAS*
meant for me. I thought so. However, less than half of my roses are
HTs and three of them came with the house.

Therefore, you're simply wrong.

Sorry.

You lose.

I had to cut at least 60 percent of this plant down just so I could walk
around it--I was having to walk to Dallas and then to El Paso and back just
to
get around it. I tolerated its 12 foot horizontals and then multiple 10 foot
verticals off those for many many years. I've always considered it nothing
less than majestic,

That's because, for you, bigger seems better.

Bigger is almost always better in all things roses. With new mini
introductions and at rose shows they have to beat them back with sticks.
You see, elemento, the word BIG is a STAPLE in rose catalogs and everywhere
else in life.
Much much better to have a BIG The Fair than a puny The Fairy, no?

I don't know, as my Fairy is over 10 feet wide.

It's not about size for me - it's all about context. One of my current
faves is the schrublet, Baby Love. It's the perfect size for where it
is and it seems to stay in bloom all of the time.

Why just today I think I read the troll saying how much she like BIG, GORGEOUS
roses, you should know which post I'm talking about, you've had your nose there
for about a year now.

You must be talking about Shiva, right?

Your beef with her is your own. I personally like her because she
offered me some advice that was helpful.

Of course, from what I understand, she has a pretty good reason to
dislike *you*. But that doesn't matter one way or another to me. You
just seem like another troll to me...

Which is why I was
surprised that you didn't fall all over yourself over Cass' picture.

I'm not surprised that you're surprised cause you are thick, you can't even
unnerstand it when I flat out say my comments were tongue in cheek.
Of course you read Cass' follow-up. Well, what she said...go with that one.

Cool. I get it now that it's tongue-in-cheek. With you, it's hard to
tell though.

Oh wait, most of what you grow is sprawling and ungainly (to my eye
that is). There doesn't seem to be a place in your garden for a
well-shaped mass of blosso...ooops, I mean blooms. Of course, it's
hard to tell since most of the links to your roses on your website are
broken. Therefore, I have to rely on what you post here.

One, remember the hybrid tea rut,

Thank you Mr. Lincoln.

and to offer as a rebutt 96 pics of what's
blooming toDay! to the tripe you speak would be a waste of my time.

Glad to have wasted so much of your time today.

But I've been doing that anyway. With my cheap digi cam. I don't much like
it.
Two, none of my rose pic links, few that nthey are currently, are broken. The
pics I post here go in the same directory as those on my website, sometimes I
link them there, sometimes I don't.

I'm sorry, but most of the pics that I clicked the other day 404'd (as
you would put it).

Some people let Netscape's cache control them instead of the other way around.
Or Internet Exploder, same difference.

Frankly, since it was the first time that I clicked those links, I
doubt that IE's cache had anything to do with it.

Perhaps your hosting site had problems that day. I went back to your
site and pics seem to be coming up today (and no, my cache hasn't been
cleared since then). I especially like Trier, which yes, *is* in
Germany - I lived about 30 km from it. Beautiful city on the Mosel.
Great Roman Wall remnants with a nice big stone gate as well.

BTW, I notice a pretty fair number of HTs. Hope you don't get stuck in
the rut.

and almost every new person who's ever seen it has had some
kind of reaction. Recently the New Jersey unit's comments on this grope
were
a case in point.
Being too critical of King Abraham is akin to talking to your Queen Mother
about gravity.

Weird. You go ballistic over a plant that *I* happen to like and only
because of its NAME. How weird is that?

How is that weird, the world revolves around words that give off bad vibes.
You have a strange idea of ballistic.

I think that this post has a lot of ballistic in it.

I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

Oh wait, we're talking about HTs. What the ****?

And then of course my rain forest grew up, this has had some effect, but less
on this one than some others. I wouldn't trade my rain forest for all of
Portland, don't get me wrong.


but
you wouldn't want *this* plant - which has obviously grown to be what
it wants to be, which is a huge plant overloaded with blossoms?

'blossoms', I have always thought, is a very feminine term.
I don't have blossoms. bcd uses this term all the time, makes me cringe
every
time I hear it. How do these things happen?

Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

BTW, whether you like it or not, you've got blossoms.

No blossoms. Blooms. Flaures too.

Yes blossoms. Sorry. Try your dictionary.

Look it up. And
your not-so-subtle reference to my sexuality is noted. But I'm man
enough to just laugh it off.

I'd suggest the ACLU but I've demonstrated time and again I don't give a
sheeeeeit whether you're a he a she or an it.

Blossom is what you would call a pig, or maybe some farmer's daughter, like
in some joke maybe.




Well, different strokes I suppose...

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, agreed. I guess I
have
to spell it out, how firmly was my tongue planted in my cheek?
Is that enough of a hint?

When was your tongue planted in your cheek - the way you describe Mr.
Lincoln?

Oh, so you *did know I was talking about Cass' rose.

I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

Yet you refuse to admit
it and hassle me anyway. Rock on, dude. rgr 2003, maaaaaan. Why we
got 'Hate' threads now, and all the predictable participants. And a few
unwarys and people who don't buy that 'ugly rose' stuff which seems to float
your boat.

I really don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, I took the gloves off when *you* hassled me about Desert Peace.

shrug

Yep, you love to dish it out, but you run away crying when someone
cuts *you*.

Nothing new there, I suppose.

I guess I've ticked you off since you're using my name in a pretty
disrespectful manner.

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, that's still agreed.
That is your name, isn't it?

Yeah it is. But don't be disengenuous here. It doesn't suit you.

Hey wait, maybe it does.

People can call me by my name, my first name, my last name-- I don't care.

I thought that names and the way we use them were IMPORTANT.

s******

This is why it's hard to tell when you're talking tongue-in-cheek,
because you're all over the map.

People can't call Some people by their first name or their last name cause
they like to put up walls and veils of anonymity, you should know all about
that, hanging out here like you do.

Since my name is clearly marked in all of my posts, I don't know what
you're talking about.

Oh wait, what was that you said? Different storkes? For different dorkes?

Nope. Never said that.

Of course, that seems to be the way of most word
bullies. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Sorry about
that.

Sorry Weil, that word's already taken. And remember, you're the one calling
someone's rose 'ugly'.

Actually, that was "pretty ugly".

And I wasn't even talking to you.

Damn, here I was thinking that I was Cass.

The person I was talking to you was smart enough to recognize when someones pullin her leg.

I'm glad that she got it. She's been dealing with you a lot longer
than I have.

Once again, while I knew that you were hyperbolizin', I really *did*
think that, based on pics that you've posted here, it wouldn't be your
cup of tea.

shrug

m

oh, almost forgot
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/ros99.htm

In article ,
says...

On 7 Jun 2003 23:24:37 -0500, (lms) wrote:

You're not sorry and you meant all words of all insults, but it's no
grand achievement of mine, I just planted it and watered it and occasionally
heaved great shovelsfull of horse manure way high in the air so when it came
down Mr. Lincoln could put it where he wanted it.

Coming from the king of sinde, sidearmed insults, I'll take your
comment as high praise.

dave, you didn't really go to the next level, I'm glad to see that. really, I
am.


I'm sorry that I ticked you off. It's just that the
picture you posted didn't portray the plant in a very good light. IOW,
it looked pretty ugly. Sort of like a larger version of my Touch of
Class, which I find a pretty ugly plant, structure wise.

What would you know about struc ture, you're still stuck in the hybrid tea
rut.

Ahhhh, so that snide comment that you made in the other post *WAS*
meant for me. I thought so. However, less than half of my roses are
HTs and three of them came with the house.

Therefore, you're simply wrong.

Sorry.

You lose.

hahaha. no, Jeff Gordon loses, he loses too much, he doesn't win so much
anymore. and that comment was just general, wasn't meant for you, honest.


Bigger is almost always better in all things roses. With new mini
introductions and at rose shows they have to beat them back with sticks.
You see, elemento, the word BIG is a STAPLE in rose catalogs and everywhere
else in life.
Much much better to have a BIG The Fair than a puny The Fairy, no?

I don't know, as my Fairy is over 10 feet wide.

That's big. The one here's only 4-5 but lush and green and going everywhere it
can, has a lot of competition. surrounded by Margaret Merrill, Pearl
Meidilland, Trier, and Grapes! Have to hack grape today mof.
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/tf03.jpg


Of course, from what I understand, she has a pretty good reason to
dislike *you*.

That'd be accurate. Chase off 90 percent of the real rosers, all you're left
with is brainwashees. Like you. My observation is that she's cleaned up
her act *real good though, you'd never even have a clue of all the
outright filth which she associated with, participated in and
wholeheartedly uncouraged once upon an ugly ugly time--unless you read all
the snide remarks she continues to spew at every opportunity, talking to/at
people who long ago decided they were finished with dealing with that psycho.
Even these probably just go right over your head. Maybe they don't-- maybe
you condone, maybe you relish, the continued contentiousness.
Her current mode is acceptable, I'd rather just leave it at that.


But that doesn't matter one way or another to me. You
just seem like another troll to me...

andso beit


Which is why I was
surprised that you didn't fall all over yourself over Cass' picture.

I'm not surprised that you're surprised cause you are thick, you can't even
unnerstand it when I flat out say my comments were tongue in cheek.
Of course you read Cass' follow-up. Well, what she said...go with that one.

Cool. I get it now that it's tongue-in-cheek. With you, it's hard to
tell though.

excellent!



Oh wait, most of what you grow is sprawling and ungainly (to my eye
that is). There doesn't seem to be a place in your garden for a
well-shaped mass of blosso...ooops, I mean blooms. Of course, it's
hard to tell since most of the links to your roses on your website are
broken. Therefore, I have to rely on what you post here.

One, remember the hybrid tea rut,

Thank you Mr. Lincoln.

and to offer as a rebutt 96 pics of what's
blooming toDay! to the tripe you speak would be a waste of my time.

Glad to have wasted so much of your time today.

don't consider it a waste of time, really. It's important what you think.
It's important wandering through the roses, I do it almost every day.


But I've been doing that anyway. With my cheap digi cam. I don't much like
it.
Two, none of my rose pic links, few that nthey are currently, are broken.
The
pics I post here go in the same directory as those on my website, sometimes I
link them there, sometimes I don't.

I'm sorry, but most of the pics that I clicked the other day 404'd (as
you would put it).

Some people let Netscape's cache control them instead of the other way
around.
Or Internet Exploder, same difference.

Frankly, since it was the first time that I clicked those links, I
doubt that IE's cache had anything to do with it.

Perhaps your hosting site had problems that day. I went back to your
site and pics seem to be coming up today (and no, my cache hasn't been
cleared since then). I especially like Trier, which yes, *is* in
Germany - I lived about 30 km from it. Beautiful city on the Mosel.
Great Roman Wall remnants with a nice big stone gate as well.

BTW, I notice a pretty fair number of HTs. Hope you don't get stuck in
the rut.

funny thing about HTs, the scrawniest plant imaginable can produce some really
amazing blooms, infact I've had them produce absolute killers right before they
croak. Like Adolph Horstmann.
So that full-page bloom can actually be very deceiving. But it's the only
way to sell roses.


and almost every new person who's ever seen it has had some
kind of reaction. Recently the New Jersey unit's comments on this grope
were
a case in point.
Being too critical of King Abraham is akin to talking to your Queen Mother
about gravity.

Weird. You go ballistic over a plant that *I* happen to like and only
because of its NAME. How weird is that?

How is that weird, the world revolves around words that give off bad vibes.
You have a strange idea of ballistic.

I think that this post has a lot of ballistic in it.

yeah it does, that one didn't.



I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

fictures, I like it. And I don't disbelieve you.




Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

They're not big enough yet.




I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

I have a yew tree, same size as Sunsprite, they're basically twins, nope, no
confusion.


Yes, I took the gloves off when *you* hassled me about Desert Peace.

shrug

Yep, you love to dish it out, but you run away crying when someone
cuts *you*.

Nothing new there, I suppose.

sorry, never cried any tears about this ng, and I'm here now for as long as I
want to be?



I guess I've ticked you off since you're using my name in a pretty
disrespectful manner.

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, that's still agreed.
That is your name, isn't it?

Yeah it is. But don't be disengenuous here. It doesn't suit you.

Hey wait, maybe it does.

what would johnny cochran say?



People can call me by my name, my first name, my last name-- I don't care.

I thought that names and the way we use them were IMPORTANT.

s******

This is why it's hard to tell when you're talking tongue-in-cheek,
because you're all over the map.

!!


Of course, that seems to be the way of most word
bullies. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Sorry about
that.

Sorry Weil, that word's already taken. And remember, you're the one calling
someone's rose 'ugly'.

Actually, that was "pretty ugly".

And I wasn't even talking to you.

Damn, here I was thinking that I was Cass.

The person I was talking to you was smart enough to recognize when someones
pullin her leg.

I'm glad that she got it. She's been dealing with you a lot longer
than I have.

'dealing' with me implies that's some kind of burden. perhaps it is, but it's
pretty clear otherwise to a dimbulb like me. If I were just here trolling
rosies and gwew no roses, that would be one thing, but the fact is, I grow a
sheeeeitload of roses and love to talk about them. That's a big problem for
anyone wanting to do any 'dealing' with me.


Once again, while I knew that you were hyperbolizin', I really *did*
think that, based on pics that you've posted here, it wouldn't be your
cup of tea.

shrug

cool. likewise

m





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On 8 Jun 2003 11:13:32 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...

On 7 Jun 2003 23:24:37 -0500, (lms) wrote:

You're not sorry and you meant all words of all insults, but it's no
grand achievement of mine, I just planted it and watered it and occasionally
heaved great shovelsfull of horse manure way high in the air so when it came
down Mr. Lincoln could put it where he wanted it.

Coming from the king of sinde, sidearmed insults, I'll take your
comment as high praise.

dave, you didn't really go to the next level, I'm glad to see that. really, I
am.


I'm sorry that I ticked you off. It's just that the
picture you posted didn't portray the plant in a very good light. IOW,
it looked pretty ugly. Sort of like a larger version of my Touch of
Class, which I find a pretty ugly plant, structure wise.

What would you know about struc ture, you're still stuck in the hybrid tea
rut.

Ahhhh, so that snide comment that you made in the other post *WAS*
meant for me. I thought so. However, less than half of my roses are
HTs and three of them came with the house.

Therefore, you're simply wrong.

Sorry.

You lose.

hahaha. no, Jeff Gordon loses, he loses too much, he doesn't win so much
anymore. and that comment was just general, wasn't meant for you, honest.

I thought it was a general poke at me, since I'm the only one that
you're at loggerheads with at the moment and your repeating it here
just reinforced that impression.

Sorry.

Bigger is almost always better in all things roses. With new mini
introductions and at rose shows they have to beat them back with sticks.
You see, elemento, the word BIG is a STAPLE in rose catalogs and everywhere
else in life.
Much much better to have a BIG The Fair than a puny The Fairy, no?

I don't know, as my Fairy is over 10 feet wide.

That's big. The one here's only 4-5 but lush and green and going everywhere it
can, has a lot of competition. surrounded by Margaret Merrill, Pearl
Meidilland, Trier, and Grapes! Have to hack grape today mof.
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/tf03.jpg

Well, I cheated. It's a climbing Fairy, of course. I had a rosarian
over to the house last week taking that possible white sport that I
recently posted about and she said she didn't even know that there was
a climbing sport of Fairy. And she said she asked several people at a
recent Birmingham (maybe) show and none of *them* had ever heard of
one either. So, I guess this plant isn't as widely known as I assumed
that it was.

There are several people in the neighborhood that have Fairy bushes
planted all by their lonesomes and, frankly, it's pretty unappealing
that way. Much better to plant them en masse, I think. They look like
snowcones buried up to heir necks.

Of course, from what I understand, she has a pretty good reason to
dislike *you*.

That'd be accurate. Chase off 90 percent of the real rosers, all you're left
with is brainwashees. Like you.

Pluuueze. I can make up my own mind about people. Frankly, I take this
comment as pretty much the type of behavior that you are decrying in
Shiva.

Plus, I think you know about the kind of behind the scenes stuff that
I'm talking about. Hopefully *you've* cleaned up your act.

My observation is that she's cleaned up
her act *real good though, you'd never even have a clue of all the
outright filth which she associated with, participated in and
wholeheartedly uncouraged once upon an ugly ugly time--unless you read all
the snide remarks she continues to spew at every opportunity, talking to/at
people who long ago decided they were finished with dealing with that psycho.

Would these comments count as snide? If so, then what's your prob?

Even these probably just go right over your head. Maybe they don't-- maybe
you condone, maybe you relish, the continued contentiousness.
Her current mode is acceptable, I'd rather just leave it at that.

So, baiting her when she's "playing nice" is "acceptable?

But that doesn't matter one way or another to me. You
just seem like another troll to me...

andso beit


Which is why I was
surprised that you didn't fall all over yourself over Cass' picture.

I'm not surprised that you're surprised cause you are thick, you can't even
unnerstand it when I flat out say my comments were tongue in cheek.
Of course you read Cass' follow-up. Well, what she said...go with that one.

Cool. I get it now that it's tongue-in-cheek. With you, it's hard to
tell though.

excellent!

So, if that's your intention, how can you diss someone for not being
able to tell the diff? And why get so upset when someone gets it
wrong?

Oh wait, most of what you grow is sprawling and ungainly (to my eye
that is). There doesn't seem to be a place in your garden for a
well-shaped mass of blosso...ooops, I mean blooms. Of course, it's
hard to tell since most of the links to your roses on your website are
broken. Therefore, I have to rely on what you post here.

One, remember the hybrid tea rut,

Thank you Mr. Lincoln.

and to offer as a rebutt 96 pics of what's
blooming toDay! to the tripe you speak would be a waste of my time.

Glad to have wasted so much of your time today.

don't consider it a waste of time, really. It's important what you think.
It's important wandering through the roses, I do it almost every day.


But I've been doing that anyway. With my cheap digi cam. I don't much like
it.
Two, none of my rose pic links, few that nthey are currently, are broken.
The
pics I post here go in the same directory as those on my website, sometimes I
link them there, sometimes I don't.

I'm sorry, but most of the pics that I clicked the other day 404'd (as
you would put it).

Some people let Netscape's cache control them instead of the other way
around.
Or Internet Exploder, same difference.

Frankly, since it was the first time that I clicked those links, I
doubt that IE's cache had anything to do with it.

Perhaps your hosting site had problems that day. I went back to your
site and pics seem to be coming up today (and no, my cache hasn't been
cleared since then). I especially like Trier, which yes, *is* in
Germany - I lived about 30 km from it. Beautiful city on the Mosel.
Great Roman Wall remnants with a nice big stone gate as well.

BTW, I notice a pretty fair number of HTs. Hope you don't get stuck in
the rut.

funny thing about HTs, the scrawniest plant imaginable can produce some really
amazing blooms, infact I've had them produce absolute killers right before they
croak. Like Adolph Horstmann.
So that full-page bloom can actually be very deceiving. But it's the only
way to sell roses.

Well, you yourself talked about big/catalog appeal being important in
the scheme of things. Frankly, there's big (when it comes to blooms -
probably important in a lot of peoples minds) and big when it comes to
plant structure (hardly important in an HT - when was the last time
you saw a picture of a 10 ft + HT with little foliage and no blooms in
a catalog).

For me, big would be important in a bush-type rose, but of little
significance in an HT. I have a plant that combines the both of both
worlds though, and that's Aloha. It definitely doesn't have an HT
appearance in the bush form that it takes in my yard.

Frankly, I don't really care all that much for HTs in general, other
than the fact that I have a few varieties that make good arrangements
in vases and are eye-catchers when in bloom. Otherwise, I think that
most of the time, they're pretty ugly plants. I much prefer things
that have more visual interest in addition to the blooms, i.e.
structure and foliage.

and almost every new person who's ever seen it has had some
kind of reaction. Recently the New Jersey unit's comments on this grope
were
a case in point.
Being too critical of King Abraham is akin to talking to your Queen Mother
about gravity.

Weird. You go ballistic over a plant that *I* happen to like and only
because of its NAME. How weird is that?

How is that weird, the world revolves around words that give off bad vibes.
You have a strange idea of ballistic.

I think that this post has a lot of ballistic in it.

yeah it does, that one didn't.

I thought that dissing a whole class of "follow-on" Peaces was pretty
ascerbic. Ballistic? Almost. The followup to my post certainly was
borderline ballistic.

I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

fictures, I like it. And I don't disbelieve you.

I liked it too when I saw it.


Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

They're not big enough yet.

That's why you have to interact with them. They get bigger that way.

I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

I have a yew tree, same size as Sunsprite, they're basically twins, nope, no
confusion.

Can't tell if you take my point.

Yes, I took the gloves off when *you* hassled me about Desert Peace.

shrug

Yep, you love to dish it out, but you run away crying when someone
cuts *you*.

Nothing new there, I suppose.

sorry, never cried any tears about this ng, and I'm here now for as long as I
want to be?

Sorry, run away crying just a figure of speech.

I guess I've ticked you off since you're using my name in a pretty
disrespectful manner.

Weil, a properly grown Mr. Lincoln ain't for everyone, that's still agreed.
That is your name, isn't it?

Yeah it is. But don't be disengenuous here. It doesn't suit you.

Hey wait, maybe it does.

what would johnny cochran say?

Who's "Johnny" Cochran?

People can call me by my name, my first name, my last name-- I don't care.

I thought that names and the way we use them were IMPORTANT.

s******

This is why it's hard to tell when you're talking tongue-in-cheek,
because you're all over the map.

!!


Of course, that seems to be the way of most word
bullies. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Sorry about
that.

Sorry Weil, that word's already taken. And remember, you're the one calling
someone's rose 'ugly'.

Actually, that was "pretty ugly".

And I wasn't even talking to you.

Damn, here I was thinking that I was Cass.

The person I was talking to you was smart enough to recognize when someones
pullin her leg.

I'm glad that she got it. She's been dealing with you a lot longer
than I have.

'dealing' with me implies that's some kind of burden. perhaps it is, but it's
pretty clear otherwise to a dimbulb like me. If I were just here trolling
rosies and gwew no roses, that would be one thing, but the fact is, I grow a
sheeeeitload of roses and love to talk about them. That's a big problem for
anyone wanting to do any 'dealing' with me.

Sorry. Didn't mean to offend by using the word "dealing".

Heck, I'm just a novice when it comes to roses. My garden's only in
its 3rd year. Coincidentally, that's when I bought my house. If it
weren't for the big 40 year old Aloha bush in the front yard, I might
not be have become enamored with roses.

But the "problem", as I see it, if there *is* a problem, is that you
don't mind dishing it out but you get defensive when someone kicks it
right back at you. Note that I never even interacted with you until
you took potshots at Desert Peace simply because of its name. Was I
defensive in my own right? Probably. But I really *did* find it odd
that someone wouldn't like a rose simply because of its name's
heritage. Still do. Would I buy an Adolph Horstmann if it were called
Adolph Hitler? Probably not. So it's not an absolute thing.

And, as you can see, I don't mind mixing it up. I generally treat
people with the same measure of respect that they treat me, and I
don't mind a dust-up now and again.

Once again, while I knew that you were hyperbolizin', I really *did*
think that, based on pics that you've posted here, it wouldn't be your
cup of tea.

shrug

cool. likewise

PS, when I make statements like "That's pretty ugly/ungainly/etc.,
it's implied that this is a IMO situation, with the acknowledgement
that above all, the cardinal principle is that there isn't any right
or wrong in garden opinions/implementation as along as the gardener is
pleasing him/herself. That doesn't mean that people can't agree or
disagree either though.