On 20/2/07 17:08, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On 20 Feb 2007 07:26:57 -0800, "La Puce" wrote:

On 20 Feb, 14:56, Sacha wrote:
I despair of you. I have told you categorically that I have not seen the
rosemary at Burncoose, so am in no position to identify it as anyything.
Burncoose have NOT identified this one at Salcombe as Backman's Prostrate.

Bruncoose told you that in their carpark they have Jackman's, as I had
also told you. The one on the picture you've posted is Blue Rain. And
that's my final word on this.

Are you confusing it with Backman's Prostate? Google does.

I don't know who Backman is and I hope his prostate is just fine. However,
Burncoose confirm that the rosemary in their car park is Jackman's Prostrate
(I think I made a typo earlier and typed Backman, didn't I?) However, what
neither they nor Filippi will commit themselves to is the variety of
rosemary at the house in Salcombe, or not from a photograph. And without
having seen the one at Burncoose or Barcelona at Filippi, obviously neither
can I. It is impossible for it to be 'Blue Rain', as that grows to around
2' which clearly does not fit the growth habit of the rosemary I'm trying to
ID at Salcombe.
The only reason for all this is that I will NOT submit to being forced into
accepting an ID from someone who has seen neither plant but is now insisting
this is one that its growth quite clearly shows it cannot be. Of course, I
also object to being sworn at and insulted, though as its normal for Puce to
do that, I don't know why I bother, really.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 20/2/07 18:55, in article
, "La Puce"
wrote:

On 20 Feb, 18:40, "
wrote:
I'm only following this half way

So stop interfering then! You've started all your posts today about
not 'mentioning' the person, not 'seeing' her posts, not 'gettting
involved' etc. but you do because that's all you do, pocking your nose
in all the time. You even took a 10 days old post 'RSH seeds' to
answer Kay so that you would be seen agreeing with her about a subject
that is very close to my heart. Do you think we're stupid or
something?

cue Mrs The Minister


Are you now telling us that people here must not answer posts that you
consider to be your personal province?

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 20, 5:08 pm, Martin wrote:
On 20 Feb 2007 07:26:57 -0800, "La Puce" wrote:

On 20 Feb, 14:56, Sacha wrote:
I despair of you. I have told you categorically that I have not seen
the
rosemary at Burncoose, so am in no position to identify it as
anyything.
Burncoose have NOT identified this one at Salcombe as Backman's
Prostrate.

Bruncoose told you that in their carpark they have Jackman's, as I had
also told you. The one on the picture you've posted is Blue Rain. And
that's my final word on this.

Are you confusing it with Backman's Prostate? Google does.
--

Martin

I'm only following this half way as I do not take one of the party's
posts, not Sacha, I hasten to add. I have Googled and I think it is
now clear to everyone that the unmentioned poster has made a mistake,
we all make mistakes, it's no big problem but the error is in not
admitting to it.

JudithL at home

Half way for me too, for the same reasons, but I gather that "The
unmentionable" has got it wrong again.
Par for the course.

On 20 Feb, 19:15, Sacha wrote:
Are you now telling us that people here must not answer posts that you
consider to be your personal province?

Off course not. I just wish we could get on. I don't force anyone at
beleiving an id I'm suggesting - why would I? It's silly to even
suggest this and that is also annoying me. It annoys you, why
shouldn't it annoy me too. I'm made of the same stuff as you after
all. And this 'insulting' rant you go about all the time - it's not
justified because disagreeing with you is not insulting you, but
telling me that Ray, google, your books and yourself have never heard
of one of my suggestion, which suggest clearly I'm talking rubbish
hurts me Sacha. It would hurt you to. Especially when in the end I was
right.

So I'm not forcing anyone, I'm not pushing anyone - I, in real life,
is so much the opposite. I'm sure we're both friendly - and if I am
honest enough I should now appologise for perhaps sucombing to knee
jerk reactions with you, but put yourself in my place, I've been
branded a troll from my third post a year and a half ago. It's hard to
get through to you that my passion is as strong as yours, perhaps not
my experience, but in the end I surely don't deserve your responses
and your lack of tact towards me.

'Mike' wrote:

POT

KETTLE

BLACK

Mike

=

Dickhed

pk

On 20 Feb, 19:23, "Rupert \(W.Yorkshire\)"
wrote:
Half way for me too, for the same reasons, but I gather that "The
unmentionable" has got it wrong again.
Par for the course

And this kind of post doesn't help but you know that. Or sadly,
perhaps not. There's one in every village after all.

On Feb 20, 7:15 pm, Sacha wrote:
On 20/2/07 18:55, in article
om, "La Puce"





wrote:
On 20 Feb, 18:40, "
wrote:
I'm only following this half way

So stop interfering then! You've started all your posts today about
not 'mentioning' the person, not 'seeing' her posts, not 'gettting
involved' etc. but you do because that's all you do, pocking your nose
in all the time. You even took a 10 days old post 'RSH seeds' to
answer Kay so that you would be seen agreeing with her about a subject
that is very close to my heart. Do you think we're stupid or
something?

cue Mrs The Minister

Are you now telling us that people here must not answer posts that you
consider to be your personal province?

--
Sachahttp://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devonhttp://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sacha, would you be kind enough to snip the other person's posts as I
can see them when you reply. p.s. I replied to Kay's old post as I
have been away for almost 2 weeks and off-line abroad.

Judith at home

On 20/2/07 19:35, in article
, "La Puce"
wrote:

On 20 Feb, 19:15, Sacha wrote:
Are you now telling us that people here must not answer posts that you
consider to be your personal province?

Off course not. I just wish we could get on. I don't force anyone at
beleiving an id I'm suggesting - why would I? It's silly to even
suggest this and that is also annoying me. It annoys you, why
shouldn't it annoy me too. I'm made of the same stuff as you after
all. And this 'insulting' rant you go about all the time - it's not
justified because disagreeing with you is not insulting you, but
telling me that Ray, google, your books and yourself have never heard
of one of my suggestion, which suggest clearly I'm talking rubbish
hurts me Sacha. It would hurt you to. Especially when in the end I was
right.

Puce, let's see if we can get this straight. You gave me an incomplete name
for R. Jackman's, so when I searched for it, I couldn't find it. Later you
corrected yourself to R. Jackman's Prostrate and yes, Burncoose has that
plant but I couldn't have known that at the beginning without the proper
name. I am not a mind reader. The second nursery that had it appears not
to have it any more.
You then asserted that the plant at Burncoose was R. Jackman's Prostrate but
AFAIK, you haven't seen it and if you have, you have not said so. Charlie
only suggested that it *might* be, he did not state that it was, so you
appeared to be basing your firm ID of 'my' rosemary on Charlie's 'perhaps'
and even then, that was to ID it as R. Jackman's Prostrate. I have not seen
it, so I cannot compare it with the one at Salcombe which you have not seen,
either. BUT Burncoose describe it as semi-prostrate which is not the habit
of the one at Salcombe.
Then you switched horses to it being 'Blue Rain' and you have tried your
damnedest to make me accept that R. Blue Rain, which all web sites say is
suitable for pots, rockeries and tubs and grows to around 2' is the same as
one I have personally seen yesterday and photographed which is at least 10'
long, if not more and growing in a high wall. The Jeep beside it is not a
Dinky toy, you know! So no, Puce, I very much doubt that you're right
because the plant you are trying to make me believe is Blue Rain has no
resemblance to it, other than being blue flowered and one of the prostrate
varieties.

So I'm not forcing anyone, I'm not pushing anyone - I, in real life,
is so much the opposite. I'm sure we're both friendly - and if I am
honest enough I should now appologise for perhaps sucombing to knee
jerk reactions with you, but put yourself in my place, I've been
branded a troll from my third post a year and a half ago. It's hard to
get through to you that my passion is as strong as yours, perhaps not
my experience, but in the end I surely don't deserve your responses
and your lack of tact towards me.


Then with respect, it would be better not to swear, lose your temper and
tell me to '**** off', because I cannot agree with your ID of a plant simply
on your incredibly overbearing say-so. The idea was actually to discuss the
possibilities, as one tends to do in newsgroups. When you became so
agitated as to its ID, declaring it to be the one in Burncoose's car park, I
was at pains to say that it *might* turn out to be R.Jackman's Prostrate - I
said that more than once but somehow, that was not enough for you.
As it is, the only nursery in Britain with R. Jackman's Prostrate (which is
strange in itself) has told me that they cannot identify it as that from a
photo and that they have no idea of its provenance because it's been around
for a long time. That means that it could be the real and original name or
that it could be the name that 'someone' has given it years ago. Its
present owners had it in their previous garden and Ray had it here (from
them) but lost it to frost. None can remember its proper name nor where
they bought it. If you have R. Blue Rain in your Manchester garden, not
only is it the wrong habit for the one in Salcombe, it would be dead,
because we know that this one is very tender.
A nursery in France which has many rosemaries (some unlisted in their
catalogue) has told us they have never heard of Jackman's Prostrate and that
it might - might - be Barcelona. They have asked for cuttings and those
have been sent today. Since I told you all this, you've now told me this
MUST be Blue Rain, whereas a couple of days ago it MUST be Jackman's
Prostrate BUT neither nursery has even suggested Blue Rain and I can find no
other nursery than Burncoose that has even heard of R. Jackman's Prostrate,
other than one which no longer lists it.
Usually, when asked to ID plants here, people offer suggestions, they do not
hammer their points home with a bludgeon and they do not start swearing at
people who doubt or question their suggestions.
I must say that I don't think there's any point in discussing this
particular plant further here. If I ever get a positive ID, I'll say so but
in the meantime, what was an innocent and I hoped, interesting, question
about an extraordinarily good, if tender, plant, has turned into something
just ridiculous. It's a nice plant, one or two people have asked for some
rooted cuttings if we can spare them and they'll get them in time. Let's
leave it at that.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 20/2/07 21:20, in article
, "Sacha"
wrote:

I can find no
other nursery than Burncoose that has even heard of R. Jackman's Prostrate,
other than one which no longer lists it.

At this point, I had meant to say that I have emailed the owners in S.
Africa with all these suggestions and if they answer me with refreshed
memories of it coming from Burncoose, then R. Jackman's Prostrate it almost
certainly is. What it was originally and where it came from would be truly
fascinating to know but we probably never will. OTOH and just to keep up
the suspense, Pepiniere Filippi might declare it to be R. Barcelona. ;-)

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

Sacha wrote:

I can find no
other nursery than Burncoose that has even heard of R. Jackman's Prostrate,
other than one which no longer lists it.

I think it is fair to assume that any plant sporting the Jackmans
name, must be an old or fairly old English variety due to the
association with Jackmans of Woking. That said, it is virtually
unknown apart from the plants offered by Burncoose and therefore its
true identity must be highly suspect. There's a lot of difference
between a plant originally acquired from Jackmans (that they may have
acquired from another nursery/customer/friend etc.) and a variety
raised by Jackmans and given their name. The chances are it is
probably a recognised variety (in S. Europe) and that the correct name
has been forgotten or lost along the way. As a result it may have
spent a short time as 'prostrate rosemary from Jackmans' and it
doesn't take a great leap for it to become Rosemarinus 'Jackman's
Prostrate'. It happens quite a lot in the trade resulting in one
plant having several names. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Olivier
declares it to be 'Barcelona'.

On 21/2/07 08:24, in article
, "Dave Poole"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:

I can find no
other nursery than Burncoose that has even heard of R. Jackman's Prostrate,
other than one which no longer lists it.

I think it is fair to assume that any plant sporting the Jackmans
name, must be an old or fairly old English variety due to the
association with Jackmans of Woking. That said, it is virtually
unknown apart from the plants offered by Burncoose and therefore its
true identity must be highly suspect. There's a lot of difference
between a plant originally acquired from Jackmans (that they may have
acquired from another nursery/customer/friend etc.) and a variety
raised by Jackmans and given their name. The chances are it is
probably a recognised variety (in S. Europe) and that the correct name
has been forgotten or lost along the way. As a result it may have
spent a short time as 'prostrate rosemary from Jackmans' and it
doesn't take a great leap for it to become Rosemarinus 'Jackman's
Prostrate'. It happens quite a lot in the trade resulting in one
plant having several names. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Olivier
declares it to be 'Barcelona'.


A much more concise summary of what I was trying to get at. ;-) Someone
gives someone else a piece of a plant called X and someone else gets hold of
it and forgets the name when they give it yet another someone and so the
plant becomes Y, or even months and years later, Z. Interesting that
Olivier loses Barcelona (or almost loses it) to frost 'down there'. We
thought his nursery and trial garden would be protected by the sea but of
course, there's the lagoon before that, so perhaps that makes the
difference. Certainly, I got one of the biggest mosquito bites of my life
in that garden, so that's one abiding memory of it! It's a very
interesting place to visit - as you know, having sent us there - and he's
rigorous in his trial garden and his refusal to water anything to test it to
its very limits in the garden.
When we next go to Scilly, we'll head to Burncoose and get R. Jackman's
Prostrate, raise some cuttings and send some on to Olivier to trial against
R. Barcelona, too.
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/
(remove weeds from address)

On 21 Feb, 08:24, "Dave Poole" wrote:
I think it is fair to assume that any plant sporting the Jackmans
name, must be an old or fairly old English variety due to the
association with Jackmans of Woking.

Is Jackmans of Woking an old nursery now called Wyevale?

That said, it is virtually
unknown apart from the plants offered by Burncoose and therefore its
true identity must be highly suspect. There's a lot of difference
between a plant originally acquired from Jackmans (that they may have
acquired from another nursery/customer/friend etc.) and a variety
raised by Jackmans and given their name. The chances are it is
probably a recognised variety (in S. Europe)

At the first description I thought of the 'Noe' variety which you can
see everywhere in Provence, and in Marseilles where I go every year
visiting family. Though I have never heard of it in England. The 'Noe'
is prostrate and is called rosmarinus lavendulaceus 'Noe' - the story
goes that Noah (Noe) polished his acaccia boat with this rosemary. The
only 'clinging climbing' rosemary I have seen in England is the
rosmarinus prostratus either named Blue Rain or Jackman's. Indeed
these have been named by someone, but the plant is still the same one
I have seen.

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:08:27 +0100, Martin wrote:

On 20 Feb 2007 07:26:57 -0800, "La Puce" wrote:

On 20 Feb, 14:56, Sacha wrote:
I despair of you. I have told you categorically that I have not seen the
rosemary at Burncoose, so am in no position to identify it as anyything.
Burncoose have NOT identified this one at Salcombe as Backman's Prostrate.

Bruncoose told you that in their carpark they have Jackman's, as I had
also told you. The one on the picture you've posted is Blue Rain. And
that's my final word on this.

Are you confusing it with Backman's Prostate? Google does.

Backman's Prostate? Please leave his glands out of this.

On Feb 21, 11:19 am, "La Puce" wrote:

At the first description I thought of the 'Noe' variety which you can
see everywhere in Provence, and in Marseilles where I go every year
visiting family. Though I have never heard of it in England.

In that case why didn't you say so? I only know of R. lavandulaceus
'de Noe', which doesn't wholly fit the bill in terms of the plant in
question. However, it is not the plant we are discussing, so we move
on....

The only 'clinging climbing' rosemary I have seen in England is the
rosmarinus prostratus either named Blue Rain or Jackman's. Indeed
these have been named by someone, but the plant is still the same one
I have seen.

Erm ... 'Blue Rain' is *not* the same as 'Jackman's Prostrate'. 'Blue
Rain' is comparatively compact and does not expand to the degree that
the plant in Sacha's pic suggests. This was pointed out before, so
why do you persist in this nonsense?

Puce, you're digging yourself into a hole. Best leave it alone and
maybe the true identity of this Rosemary will eventually emerge.

On 21 Feb, 18:36, "Dave Poole" wrote:
In that case why didn't you say so? I only know of R. lavandulaceus
'de Noe', which doesn't wholly fit the bill in terms of the plant in
question. However, it is not the plant we are discussing, so we move
on....

Because Bruncoose, as you've suggested, could have giving it a name. I
don't know R.lavandulaceus 'de noe' but 'Noe' I do. It is indeed
interesting to see how the names change from country to country. On a
french gardening forum I've contacted a chap who I have met in France
and he has never heard of 'de noe' but knows 'noe'. When I gave him
the description he was certain that this could indeed fit the bill.

The only 'clinging climbing' rosemary I have seen in England is the
rosmarinus prostratus either named Blue Rain or Jackman's. Indeed
these have been named by someone, but the plant is still the same one
I have seen.

Erm ... 'Blue Rain' is *not* the same as 'Jackman's Prostrate'. 'Blue
Rain' is comparatively compact and does not expand to the degree that
the plant in Sacha's pic suggests.

Giving it the right situation it does. Mine did climb over a wall and
went down the other side. I am indeed looking forward to finding out
what it is.

This was pointed out before, so
why do you persist in this nonsense?

It is not nonsense and you know it. You could have certainly pointed
out that Sacha was rude at my first responce especially when I was
right regarding Jackman's. You however will never admit to this since
she's a pal of yours. I very much understand even though I wouldn't do
the same.

Puce, you're digging yourself into a hole.

Why would I do this? Giving me a speech on latin names and following
this by reminding me that names change? You are talking to a half
Italian and half French woman Dave! Who are you kidding? I would never
try to fool anyone nor participate in an id when I simply don't know
but when I do identify plants it's because I have a sure idea, and I
get bitten by trying to find out - and usually I get it right. It's my
favourite pass time, especially herbs and wild flowers. Not so expert
as you on glasshouse and exotic plants. I don't either reply to posts
regarding subjects I simply don't know about.

Best leave it alone and
maybe the true identity of this Rosemary will eventually emerge.

Indeed and I bet you it will not be 'Barcelona' )